Using the Space Wolves dex?

[biadetic]

SO I got thinking, would it be possible to use the space wolf dex for a chaos army?

THe main and only reason i thought about this was about the fenrisian wolves, how they could be used as daemons, even thunderwolf cavalry could be riders on daemonic steeds etc. (probly easier to convert too)

 

Anyone thought about this?

My first thought would be Word Bearers possibly? Incorporate daemons for the wolves, even use Bjorn as The Warmonger mayhaps?

Or what other chaos choices would be a better fit?

 

Just the thought of using an up-to-date codex seems appealing. Or does the chaos codex itself offer a few of the 'small' things that would make it a better chaos list, or more effective would be better phrase.

 

Just something i got into my head, because i am for starting a space wolf army, mainly because i have some of the models, but I've alays wanted to play chaos, and find the current dex just a little lack luster.

 

I'd love to hear your opinions or advice, wheter its just not overly feasible or does or could make some sense?

Thanks.

[Cornelias]

i can be argued that it's a better way to represent a Khorne army than with the current codex chaos ;)

 

fenrisian wolves for fleshhounds, thunderwolves for juggernauts, anti-psyker wargear options, frost blades for axes of khorne, lone wolves as crazed (mini Khârn) like berzerkers etc. some of the sagas would fit aswell.

 

it's one of the few times i think a counts as actually makes sense aslong as you stay away from things like rune priests and anything that doesn't fit with the chaos theme.

[Corpse.]

Many people use loyalist marine codexes for chaos variants. The most popular variant pushed for a space wolf army is an Alpha Legion force.

 

If you want word bearers, the basic troops fit well. The Wulfen can be a possessed in the unit. Lone Wolves could be apostles. The psychic powers such as tempest could easily be called something like subterfuge.

 

I would make TWCav more or less larger daemons, for the long run. SWGuard as Chosen of course.

[chillin]

I've been considering trying out the SW's dex for my BL.

- chaos lord (WL) is more customizable (giving up wings of course but you gotta give to get)

- WG=chosen and/or lords retinue. After thousands of years of fighting, chaos chosen/vets have learned to what...to sneak up on people

and fight no better then regular csm's <_<

- RP ismore in line with what a powerful chaos sorc should be. Why is a sorc with the closest ties to the warp and pacts with the gods in it one of the weakest psykers in the game ?

- WG battle leader = chaos Lt.

- dreads you can use

- GH's - pretty good representation of undivided csm's

- Thunder wolf pack- JUGGERS !!, Would love to have my juggers back.

- no oblits, but I don't mind using preds and havocs (LF's)

- razorbacks, they are pre heresy. And even if they weren't, chaos legions can put armadas of battle ships in space but can't figure out how to mount a HB on a rino ??

- same thing for the LRC, chaos can take over whole systems but just can't figure out how to mount a bank of bolters on a LR ?? We're not talking about tech that chaos doesn't possess, we're talking about a couple of guys with a welding tourch and a socket wrench.

- mark of wolfen = possession

- wolf tail talisman - in Dark Creed a DA was more then a match for the most powerful s/m libby. Why would a DA or chaos lord have NO psy powers or even protection from them. They are powerful people with connections to the warp.

- frost blade = D. weop, not as powerful but good enough.

** some things I think you should not use, atsknf, strrm shield, wolf priest (unless you WB's), iron priest, scouts, BC's (so no swiftclaws or skyclaws either), land speeders, LF's with PC's, redeemers.

[Zentor]

Blood claws can be berzerkers, no? Just no plague marines or NMs

[chillin]

Blood claws can be berzerkers, no? Just no plague marines or NMs

 

ehhh, WS.3, 1 attack, Ld.8, makes a pretty weak brzrkr. And fluffwize BC's are inexperienced (accounting for thier lower stats & headstrong

Fluffwize, in my army there are no inexperienced fighters, no young welps. The newest Legionaires have beem fighting for several hundred if not a thousand years, the oldest for several thousand. And really in old chaos dexs and fluff there is really no parallel for something like BC's.

WG would be your main assault unit, not as good as brzrkrs but pretty good. Like I said in my earlier post " ya gotta give to get".

IMO SW's dex best represents all undivided Legions, WB's, and all undivided BL (which I used to run in csm 3.5 dex, and love the concept/idea of. I still run it sometimes in Gav dex, but in gav dex, I'm putting myself a quite handicap, mostly for lack of a good assault squad (and lose of my undivided banner full of furies) ( man I miss that combo, my reg opponents HATED it, would totally mess them up).

[Lexington]

- razorbacks, they are pre heresy. And even if they weren't, chaos legions can put armadas of battle ships in space but can't figure out how to mount a HB on a rino ??

- same thing for the LRC, chaos can take over whole systems but just can't figure out how to mount a bank of bolters on a LR ?? We're not talking about tech that chaos doesn't possess, we're talking about a couple of guys with a welding tourch and a socket wrench.

See, I've always taken this as representing the Traitor Legions' sense of nostalgia and hatred towards an Imperium that they see as weak/unwilling to accept the truth/whatnot. Perhaps they could fix up the wreck of Land Raider Crusader they win from fleeing Marines, but is it really worth adopting the technology of those they've warred against?

 

Yes, yes, realistically they should, but the state of technology and the reasons for people adopting or not adopting technological advancements in 40K are just a strange little patch we have to look past in order to otherwise appreciate the universe. Try to think about it too hard, and your mind will go numb. ;)

[Rain]

To be honest I'm not too keen on the idea of using SW to represent Black Legion of all things. I that's the only legion our current travesty of a book actually represents properly. Now sure, I guess if you want to go for the "renegade marines" think and not field any obliterators or cult troops, or daemons then it could make some sense, kind of sort of not really. Similarly it doesn't even really fit khorne as there is no equivalent to berzerkers, and as zerks are among the best troops choices in the game anyway I don't see why resorting to counts as is needed.

 

Honestly the only counts as that makes any sense to me is the BA codex to represent Night Lords and vanilla marine codex to represent Alpha Legion and possibly Iron Warriors. The SW rules on the other hand only represent SW as that chapter has a very unique organization and way of doing things.

[chillin]

To be honest I'm not too keen on the idea of using SW to represent Black Legion of all things. I that's the only legion our current travesty of a book actually represents properly.

 

Well Like I said it represents all undidvided BL (undivided like WB's, IW's, NL's and AL. Not undivided as in "I can take a slanny lash prince and brzrkrs and call it fluffy"). MY BL army's fluff was/is that they use chaos as a tool, a weopon, and do not worship or pledge their souls to any one god (more like IW's, in that reguard, then any other legion), no marks, no cult troops. I did this in C:csm 3.5 and did well, what with D. gifts, and vet skills, etc., and like I said the undivided banner full of furies. Like I said, in gav dex I handicap myself pretty bad if I try to stick to the fluff of my particular BL warband. That's why I've considered giving SW's dex a go (haven't tried it yet)

[chillin]

See, I've always taken this as representing the Traitor Legions' sense of nostalgia

is it really worth adopting the technology of those they've warred against?

 

For any force that wants to win (as CSM'S do) there is no room for nostalgia.

It is VERY worth adopting the technology of those you war against (especially those that have beaten you in the past !).

The Roman Empire was so successful b/c they did a very good job of adopting the tech & tactics of those that had beaten them in battles, Celts, Sarmatians, Pathians, Sassinians).

 

Chaos Champ to Chaos Lord "my lord, both the LC's on our LR were blown off in the last battle. We have no LC's, but we have plenty of bolters. We could rig up a bank of bolters where the LC's used to be, it would be better for assults actually.

Chaos Lord "No, for nostalgic reasons will will not use TL'ed bolters on our LR's, despite the fact that it is much better for an assault vehicle, which a LR is. The Imperials use banks of bolters on their LR's and dispite the fact that it is very effective in assaults and cuts our solders to ribbons, we will not use it b/c we hate the Imperial lap dogs, and will will not adopt their tech, even if there are 2 guys over ther with a tourch and a socket wrench, and a bunch of bolters, that could do it easily"

:lol:

[Lexington]

For any force that wants to win (as CSM'S do) there is no room for nostalgia.

Well, yes, but like I said, you just can't look at it too closely or the whole thing falls apart. Chaos should be utilizing captured Imperial equipment, but the Imperium also should have made far bigger strides in technology than they have in 10,000 years, Mechanicus be damned. It's just part of the visual emphasis of 40K. The Traitor Legions utilize outdated equipment because they're supposed to look like a threat reaching back from the Imperium's past, as they'd otherwise just look like spiky Space Marines.

 

Though the nostalgic among us remember a time when Chaos could take Imperial equipment for 150% of the points cost. Ah, those were the days... :woot:

[Captain Tezdal]

Seems like the Space Wolves dex would cover Skyrars dark wolves pretty well eh?

[Pariah Mk.231]

If you're representing a renegade warband, than the Space Wolves codex would be a good choice. For example, lone wolves can represent a lone berzerker or something similar. Fenrisian wolves can be chaos hounds, wolf scouts can be stealthy veterans, and wolf guard make much better champions than the Chaos codex gives us.

 

For an existing Legion though, it doesn't seem to be a good representation, only for newer renegades.

[Chimerical]

I think it's perfectly fine to use it's rules for your Chaos army. To my mind, the issues of representing a particular Chaos legion other than Black Legion are equally as problematic using the current Chaos codex as it would be using the Space Wolves one.

 

Fact is, it's just not that fun to make a themed non-BL list from our codex because all that means is limiting your options as opposed to opening up access to something unique. If you want to enjoy our codex to it's fullest, you need to be willing to have a mish-mash of differently marked units, and that messes up your pretense to theme more than using one of the more thematically coherent loyalist codeices.

[biadetic]

I suppose if you wanted a pure cult force might as well stick to the c:csm.

 

But you piqued my interest with the Word Bearer bit Corpse.

I casn see how some of the bitz and pieces would fit together.

ALthough, why would you represent the Dark Apostle as a Lone Wolf?

Surely they'd be at least a Wolf Priest, as acting chaplain?

The mark of the wulfen idea is good, adds that little bit of flavour to the squads.

 

Could someone tell me/give me a run down on how the alpha legion play and why the vanilla marine dex works for them? (i dont know much about them)

 

Cheers

[chillin]

Could someone tell me/give me a run down on how the alpha legion play and why the vanilla marine dex works for them? (i dont know much about them)

 

AL operate alot on stealth, infiltration, etc. . In the s/m dex one of the special characters can infiltrate and take his squad w/ him. He might allow other squads to infiltrate also , I can't remember.

[Legatus]

He doesn't. Playing with Codex Space Marines allows you one single unit of infiltrating power armoured Space Marines, by using a Special Character. Using the Codex Chaos Space Marines you can use three squads of infiltrating power armoured Space Marines.

 

This is how the Alpha Legion's infiltration proficiency was explained in the Index Astartes and even the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines (the introduction to their "Infiltration" special rule): "Alpha Legionnaires can only bear the Mark of Chaos Undivided, and their veterans are reknowned for their infiltration skills."

 

I.E. it is specifically the Alpha Legion veterans that are said to be expert infiltrators. The 3rd Edition Codex had allowed Veteran squads (who all could infiltrate) or cult squads as Troops, depending on the Mark of the Lord. The 4th Edition changed that system by allowing all units to get Veteran Skills, thereby also making them veterans. You could still use CSM squads without skills as regular CSMs, or you could decide to upgrade them to Veterans by giving them one or more skills. That system has given a lot of players the impression that everyone in an Alpha Legion force generally should be able to infiltrate, while that is not actually the case at all and it was still specifically the Veterans. It simply was possible with the 3.5 Edition Codex to have all the units in the army be Veterans.

Furthermore, other Legions could also buy the infiltration ability for all their units as well. the Alhpa Legion units just got that upgrade a bit cheaper, thus making it a more interresting option. Thus the notion that an Alpha Legion army would consist almost entirely out of Infiltrators is somewhat of a misconception that the 3.5 Codex has started.

 

In the current Codex Chaos Space Marines, Veterans are an Elite choice again, and they can infiltrate. So the Alpha Legion is pretty much set. They merely cannot field "all Veteran" forces any more.

[Lexington]

To my mind, the issues of representing a particular Chaos legion other than Black Legion are equally as problematic using the current Chaos codex as it would be using the Space Wolves one.

 

Fact is, it's just not that fun to make a themed non-BL list from our codex because all that means is limiting your options as opposed to opening up access to something unique.

No offense, but I find this attitude completely boggling. If you like a theme, run it. Model it, paint it, play it, and above all, make it yours. To me, that's the reward of a theme force, not some rules-based advantage.

 

Really, I don't see any problem with making a single-Legion list with the current Chaos Codex. If you're playing a Cult Legion list, take Cult troops. If you're not, don't. Mark and Icon your list appropriately. Play, drink, repeat.

 

This isn't to say that the design discrepancies between the Chaos Codex and newer Codices isn't notable or something to be annoyed with, but that's GW's intentionally awful rules design for you. As long as you're deigning to play by them, though, you might as well use the appropriate Codex.

[Chimerical]

This isn't to say that the design discrepancies between the Chaos Codex and newer Codices isn't notable or something to be annoyed with, but that's GW's intentionally awful rules design for you. As long as you're deigning to play by them, though, you might as well use the appropriate Codex.

 

Or, you might as well not. I embrace the whole hobby, fluff and game. I think theme and rules ought to be related. The Chaos Marines codex fails epically in this respect. The rules represent the Black Legion. That is it. You can use cults only for troops and a few special characters - everything else is a half-baked Black Legionesque Icon system. For someone who wants to play a different legion, it is like telling Blood Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves, Dark Angels players to use Codex:SM. We're invested in our theme, if it's insultingly taken away from us, I say use what you rules you want that you think reflects your army.

 

You don't have to do it. I don't do it (... yet...). But I'm okay with anyone who does.

[the jeske]

Playing with Codex Space Marines allows you one single unit of infiltrating power armoured Space Marines, by using a Special Character. Using the Codex Chaos Space Marines you can use three squads of infiltrating power armoured Space Marines.

But there is difference between infiltrating 6-10 termis with TH/SS with fleet and infiltration , while at the same time you are spaming hth scout with infiltration[and you can have 6 units of those] with Fleet yet again , by passing the problem of not being able to be in range on turn 1 with an infilitration army and an army that tries to use chosen which are over costed when build for hth [or not ever costed and then not effective] or trying to be shoty and failing when faced with mecha[most armies played] .

 

The 4th Edition changed that system by allowing all units to get Veteran Skills, thereby also making them veterans.

veterans/chosen where a different choice from regular havocks or csm with infiltration . AL also had options to have cultists , that they dont have now . Saying that AL players are set because they can take vets , makes no sense as they are a dead choice in an edition that is build around troops and taking them [vets with infiltration] instead of oblits or even cult units like zerkers or pms . The 3.5 dex with its AL legion rules gave a distinct list [different even from other infiltration armies like the pm ] right now playing an AL list means you play a weaker clone of a WB or IW list [which are a weaker clone of a BL list] .

[Lexington]

The rules represent the Black Legion. That is it.

Funny, it reads like the same Traitor Legions list we've had since the long-ago days of 2nd Edition to me. Yes, we don't get special advantages for restricting our army choices like we did in the 3.5 'Dex, but the Traitor Legions existed well before Pete Haines got to them, and have done so quite well ever since.

[the jeske]

yes but before the 3.5 dex and the IA articles fluff on most of the legions was retconed RT fluff and non new given ,close no fluff at all or black legion.

 

As long as you're deigning to play by them, though, you might as well use the appropriate Codex.

then why have a codex chaos at all[other then to fill in the void of a non ready ork model range] if you want to stream line it any . the trait dex was doing a good job for most warbands and non cult legions , same with SW or BAs[khorn specialy]. yeah build were dead [like the demon bomb] , but they were dead anyway when they made the 4th ed chaos dex. more, why play chaos at all , l if other codex give the game play your looking for ?

[Lexington]

yes but before the 3.5 dex and the IA articles fluff on most of the legions was retconed RT fluff and non new given ,close no fluff at all or black legion.

Actually, untrue! The Traitor Legions were first detailed in the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex, which had an army list that was very similar to the current book. No traits, no trade-off benefits for restricting your choices, etc. Just basic Chaos Marines, Cult Troops and Daemons. It's one of the better books from what's generally considered GW's prime, creatively. I'd recommend picking up a copy on the cheap!

[Legatus]

But there is difference between infiltrating 6-10 termis with TH/SS with fleet and infiltration , while at the same time you are spaming hth scout with infiltration[and you can have 6 units of those] with Fleet yet again

Because nothing says "Alpha Legion" like infiltrating Terminators, Space Marine Scouts and 'fleet' for all units. B) And ATSKNF of course.

 

 

veterans/chosen where a different choice from regular havocks or csm with infiltration

Chosen were not the "Veterans" in the 3.5 Codex. They were more of a honour guard type of unit. In the 3.5 Codex, every unit you gave a veteran skill was promoted to "Veterans" (the clue is kinda in the title). This was also how Space Marine veterans were distinguished from normal Marines in the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines. Now, in the 4th Edition Codex, the Chosen have the same position and function that Chaos Space Marine Veterans had in the 2nd and 3rd Edition Codices.

 

 

Saying that AL players are set because they can take vets , makes no sense as they are a dead choice in an edition that is build around troops and taking them

I would say that's bogus, but fine, don't play Alpha Legion then. Next you are going to Tell me it is currently not possible to play Dark Angels.

 

 

right now playing an AL list means you play a weaker clone of a WB or IW list

*yaaawn* Oh no, I have usually no cult units in my Night Lords army. That is... bearable. I guess if you take your Alpha Legion to a WAAC tournament you are toast. Good thing I don't do that. I only play for fun, in the local GW, where victory is at your grasp even if you are not fielding a cookie cutter army. I do not really shed a tear for people that play cookie cutter only and wish for more cookie cutter builds, though I do emphasize with people who are forced to play in such an environment and have no other option.

[Hellios]

Because nothing says "Alpha Legion" like infiltrating Terminators, Space Marine Scouts and 'fleet' for all units. :D And ATSKNF of course.

 

 

 

I would say that's bogus, but fine, don't play Alpha Legion then. Next you are going to Tell me it is currently not possible to play Dark Angels.

 

Well that is the thing... The Alpha Legion are a big mystery so maybe they are very much into sneaking around terminators :) and being loyalist marines... they deserve ATSKNF :)

 

Dark Angels are playable although I guess it would be fair to say you may be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you play pure greenwing. I guess this is just another case of this codex being bland compared to the old one.