Bringing Heretics To 40K?

[Wolfbiter]

Salutations, Traitor brethren,

 

Over the last week, I've been playing the highly enjoyable "Chaos Rising" PC game. (If you haven't played it, I strongly recommend giving it a try. Corrupting loyalists is fun!)

 

There's a particular unit available to Chaos in the game...Heretics. Basically, these are 'cannon fodder' chaos cultists used as throwaway troops by Chaos Marines.

 

After playing this, I was thinking: What if a new troop type such as the Heretic was introduced whenever GW gets around to revising the Chaos Codex?

 

I would envision stats similar to an Imperial guardsman with a limited selection of lower-powered weapons. (No lascannons or tank-busting weapons...more things like autoguns, lasguns, maybe an autocannon as heavy weapon.) Not intended as a troop type that would wholely replace CSMs in the main list...again, they would be cannon fodder to supplement the Traitor Marines. But I think such a unit would address a lot of common gripes from Chaos 40K players:

 

1. Lost and the Damned armies...players who miss this army build could take Heretics in Troops slots to get a feel similar to this popular 'lost' army build.

 

2. Alpha Legion and Word Bearers-themed armies...Heretics would fill the 'cultist' part of the Chaos background sorely missing from the tabletop game. Perhaps include some kind of HQ option or unit upgrade that would allow Heretics to Scout or Infiltrate to give Alpha Legion fans a bit of love.

 

3. New plastic kit! This would give GW a great opportunity to develop a new plastic troop kit for Chaos and have a lot of the design work done already. (Simply use Relic's art and designs and start from there.)

 

4. Open up new tactical options and more variety in Chaos armies.

 

What do people think? Would adding a Heretics-esque Troop choice to the Chaos T&O make you weep with joy, or gnash your teeth in anger. Or in the case of World Eaters, gnash your teeth with joy? :P

[minigun762]

I think some kind of Cultist/Heretic/Cannon Fodder unit is very much needed for Chaos. For me, it makes alot more sense then random unaligned lesser Daemons. In almost every description of Chaos fighting you can see non-Marine elements fighting and in some cases, being the main combatants.

 

Just look to the Lost&Damned and you'll get a great idea of what it should encompass but at its most basic level it should be human as either traitor IG or cultists or mutants.

 

I support this idea 110%.

[IronWinds]

I have over 120 mutants... all custom, made from various models with a lot of greenstuff to look like the flood from halo met zombies and techno freaks. Anything that allows me to use said models will make me very happy.

 

5. Solves the problem that all chaos armies look extremely similar. If some players started experimenting with giant mutant hordes it would vastly change the gaming experience in a good way.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Well it's not perfect, but I've got some Chaos Warriors from the fantasy game that I'm using for summoned daemons, with the explanation that they are Cultist Militia. Crazy cultists who appear from nowhere in the middle of battle and madly attack with melee weapons. I'd like something better than that, but that's all the Codex really allows for as far as I can see. Someone in another thread suggested using flagellants from the Empire faction for much the same effect, and that looks like a good option too.

 

I would very much like to see an official option for cultists.

[minigun762]

6. Reinforces the fact that Chaos Marines are the elite minority when it comes to the armies of Chaos and you should be able to represent this on the battlefield.

[A D-B]

My problem with this is that I can't, for the life of me, understand why it wasn't always a Troop choice.

[Wolfbiter]

My problem with this is that I can't, for the life of me, understand why it wasn't always a Troop choice.

 

I'm not sure. I own 2-3 of GW's ancient metal Cultists, who looked rather like Dark Elves with no shirts. I think there were 2nd edition rules in White Dwarf for them. The Lost and the Damned army list had tons of evil militia troops/cultists/minions, and 3.5's Alpha Legion sub-list had rules for Cultists too. Then they just vanished off the radar.

 

Perhaps there were concerns they would dilute the "Marine" aspects of a Chaos army, but certainly in the Chaos Rising PC game they seem very thematic and visually fit in to the Chaos army nicely.

[Lord Kallozar]

Im also liking this idea of introducing (or re-introducing) cultists/heretics. I'm sure it would also spark up alot more Word Bearer and Alpha Legion interest and armies on the tabletop!

[Legatus]

Why no Chaos Space Marine Codex has included cultists as regular unit choices for CSM army lists?

 

Rule explanation: In 2nd Edition units had to fire at the closest target. In 3rd Edition enemy units blocked LOS to other enemy units. In 4th Edition units had to make morale tests if they wanted to shoot at something other than the closest target. In 5th Edition models convey a 4+ cover save to units behind them. Bottom line: It has allways been possible in one way or another to shield a unit of your own with another of your units. Now, it is reasonable to assume that GW did not want to give an army that consists almost entirely of 200-300 points small and hard as nails elite units a cheap 50 points cannon fodder unit to cover them while they are advancing to tear the enemy apart.

 

Fluff Explanation: First of all, while the 2nd Edition Codex was titeled "Codex: Chaos", all the Codices since 3rd Edition have been titeled "Codex: Chaos Space Marines". Slaves, cultists, traitor guard are no Chaos Space marines. Chaos Space Marines will often bring some kind of human fighters to a campaign, but when the Traitor Astartes embark in their drop pods, shuttles or rhinos to do their trademark shock raids, human fighters would just slow them down. A game of 40K represents just a small excerp of a larger battle that might be taking place. A city might be assaulted by thousands of traitor units, but the Chaos Marines will be striking at specific key points. You are playing a Chaos Space Marine force, so that is what your army will consist of.

Loyalist Marines will usually fight in a campaign alongside PDF or Imperial Guard forces, unless the Chapter is attacking a rebel or alien planet all on their own, but you would still not expect Imperial Guard units as a choice in Codex Space Marines.

 

Take the Word Bearers for example. They do not distribute formations of 30-40 Cultists throughout their Marine forces. They employ thousands upon thousands of them. To put them both in the same army list would require 100+ Cultists for each squad of Word Bearers. But certainly the Word Bearers are not spreading their Astartes suqads thin throughout the cultist formations? They are still the elite shock troops, even if they use cultists to drown the enemy in bodies and fire. At some point the Word Bearers will strike, That's where the game of 40K is set.

[Wolfbiter]

Why no Chaos Space Marine Codex has included cultists as regular unit choices for CSM army lists?

 

...Now, it is reasonable to assume that GW did not want to give an army that consists almost entirely of 200-300 points small and hard as nails elite units a cheap 50 points cannon fodder unit to cover them while they are advancing to tear the enemy apart.

 

True...but I would think Daemons can do this already, to a certain extent, being able to be summoned in front of a Chaos Marine unit.

 

Fluff Explanation: First of all, while the 2nd Edition Codex was titeled "Codex: Chaos", all the Codices since 3rd Edition have been titeled "Codex: Chaos Space Marines".

 

But cultists did still pop up occasionally. 3.5 had rules for Alpha Legion cultists. Lost and the Damned certainly could be argued to be a separate Codex, but definitely was Chaotic, including Chaos Marines, mutants and Defilers.

 

I could see more mechanical justification than 'fluff' justification in your scenario (wanting to avoid giving Chaos too many easy screens), but since I didn't play LATD, I don't know how much of an issue this was, or if it would be a problem in 5th edition. Though I suppose you could mitigate that by limiting the number of units you could take in a force, or imposing other restrictions on the units, perhaps.

[the jeske]

To put them both in the same army list would require 100+ Cultists for each squad of Word Bearers

considering that if they were cultists and not traitor guardsman and considering the cost of IG dudes without hvy weapon teams [hvy stubbers is max what cultists should get] , how is that impossible to do with 2 troop choices?

 

. Now, it is reasonable to assume that GW did not want to give an army that consists almost entirely of 200-300 points small and hard as nails elite units a cheap 50 points cannon fodder unit to cover them while they are advancing to tear the enemy apart.

in an age of mecha ?? when rhinos are faster then the cultists [and deploying rhinos behind a wall of cultists would only slow the rhinos down]. a tied army doesnt work for nids and it wouldnt have worked for chaos too[and nids gaunts are better then cultists in hth]. the cults or anything different from BL + iconic 4 god units was cut to stream line the dex and to make it as quick as possible as they both needed something to fill the void of the not ready ork model range and the lack of both idea [cut all potions , force people with 9+ different armies to play one , for me is the pinacle of lack of desing philosophy] and fun expectations.

[Lay]

Too bad GW doesn't do cool stuff like Chapter Approved any more.

Back in early 3rd edition we got this: http://web.archive.org/web/20020613183513/...aoscultists.htm

 

Fluff Explanation: First of all, while the 2nd Edition Codex was titeled "Codex: Chaos", all the Codices since 3rd Edition have been titeled "Codex: Chaos Space Marines". Slaves, cultists, traitor guard are no Chaos Space marines.

Neither are daemons.

 

A game of 40K represents just a small excerp of a larger battle that might be taking place. A city might be assaulted by thousands of traitor units, but the Chaos Marines will be striking at specific key points.

Let's see, it was possible to play a small excerpt of a larger battle with:

- 2ed Codex Chaos

- 3ed C: CSM + Chapter Approved

- 3.5 C: CSM + Latd army list

all with cultists or other lesser mortals.

 

Loyalist Marines will usually fight in a campaign alongside PDF or Imperial Guard forces, unless the Chapter is attacking a rebel or alien planet all on their own, but you would still not expect Imperial Guard units as a choice in Codex Space Marines.

Imperial fluff makes a HUGE deal out of how imperial forces are organised independently from each other. That covers (but is not limited to) the military reforms after the heresy and the descriptions of the monastic and insular nature of chapters. The forces of Chaos have a much looser organisation.

 

Take the Word Bearers for example. They do not distribute formations of 30-40 Cultists throughout their Marine forces. They employ thousands upon thousands of them.

Maybe they do both, depending on the whims of their Dark Apostles.

[minigun762]

And while its true that you can make a true IG/SM army, you do have more leeway with the whole "Allies" rule and this can be used competitively or for background purposes. Either way, its an additional option for a much more organized and distinct group of armies (just like Lay said above).

 

As for the bullet sponge/cover save unit, most armies can do that now anyway.

Orks have Grots.

Marines have Scouts or Rhinos.

Chaos has Lesser Daemons or Rhinos.

IG has other Guardsmen :)

Tyranids have Gaunts.

Eldar could have Guardians.

 

I think that while Legatus brings up some good points, its nothing you couldn't get around with some proper unit balancing. Minimum squads of 10+, 1 heavy or special per 10 guys or something, limited options to heavies/specials (Heavy Stubber like Jeske said, not much more) etc. Make it so that a decent squad comes out to around 80-100 points instead of 200+ point minimum for almost any Chaos Marine troop squad.

[Sawtooth]

I support your idea if we can selectively explode them in close combat. Like in the video game. Because it's just fun.

[Warp space]

I say HERE HERE to this idea, but it should be taken a little farther. Personally i hated the new Deamons codex, and the Chaos Space Marines are just to much like spiky marines without TSKNF. i loved my 3.5 deamon marine blended army. What GW needs to do is either rewrite CODEX CHAOS or write Codex Chaos marines/deamons /Traitors, and make them like the Deamon/witch hunter Codexes were you can run them strait or mix and match. Chaos is well Chaotic they should be all over the board with their options not stuck in a box.

[Xeonic]

I would love to see this, chaos needs cultists, my idea is something like:

 

Mostly 3s, just tack on an IG statline and lowed LD(6 or 5? Conscripts are 5 so that might work), maybe slightly cut IG squad cost(4-5pts each?), champ at CSM cost(30 pts!) and statline.

10-20 cultists lead by 0-1 aspiring champion

 

Wargear autopistol and autogun, any model may replace his autogun with a ccw for free, any model may purchase a lasgun, pistol, or shotgun for a few pts(1-3?). Aspiring champion comes with bolter, bolt pistol, CCW, frag and krak grenades.

 

For every 10 cultists, one may replace his autogun with a grenade launcher or heavy stubber.

Cultists would have a 5 or even 6+ save(maybe start with 6+ save and flak armor as an upgrade to 5+), aspiring champion would have the usual upgrades.

 

Simple, quick and easy, no special rules or silly nonsense, just cultists following the raw statline of your average joe of 40k.

GW could release a plastic cultist box with robed bodies adorned with moulded in chaos symbols, a variety of heads and legs, autogun and autopistol+CCW arms and people would be swarming over cadian kits for the upgrade gear.

 

With an aspiring champ, the unit could be a reasonable melee force, but no special rules and too big to fit in a rhino, fair in assault, but not fantastic, and charging into cover only the PA aspiring champ would hit at I(and he'd probably have a fist). You could gunline with them in cover, but they'd be worse than the equivalent IG squad, and they'd get torn to shreds by scouts in CC or at range. Even giving them the scouts USR to range ahead of the chaos marines they'd still be terrible if left unsupported. Still, they'd be takable since they could tarpit and roll on the aspiring champs ld for losing every round. For anti tank the squad could only take a combi melta or plasma pistol on the champ, as well as his grenades/melta bomb option and fist.

 

Maybe one special rule though. Any squad of cultists may be purchased together with a squad of summoned daemons, and if the squad remains stationary for one turn a number of the squad(to be determined...5?)may be sacrificed to the dark gods to cause the daemons to appear automatically the following turn without having to roll for reserves. In addition the following turn the aspiring champion in the squad acts as having a personal icon with regards to deep striking.

 

Taking mass casualties and failing morale+running off the table might be an issue, maybe give the aspiring champ an upgrade to let them reroll a failed LD test a round by shooting one of them sorta like a commisar.

 

Maybe introduce an AV10 open topped truck that could carry 15 of them(for 25 pts or so). From such a platform they could shoot a decent amount of weak shots, or assault. If the truck was big enough to shield a rhino or obscure a raider hull it would be very appealing to take one in certain situations. Note that with the above numbers a 14 man squad lead by a champ would cost 100 pts, add 25-30 for transport and at least 50 pts for wargear, and they start to look not so appealing for a T3 BS3 unit.

 

It's worth noting that I have no idea how an autogun should compare to a lasgun stats wise either(assault and less range instead of rapid fire maybe?).

 

Would any of this infringe on the sheer power and versatility of CSM squads? I don't think so. Would they be used as cover? Yes if undercosted(and they really should be used as cover!). They should be cheap, maybe as cheap as IG, but possibly more fragile and crappy. Losing the aspiring champ should cost you big on the morale end of things, as well as in combat power.

 

Aaaanyways, that's my idea.

Chaos should have cultists to act as meat shields, it's fluffy and as 40k is now there's no reason not to that I can see. Add in a cultist upgrade char for AL or WB, a cultist boosting HQ(might be a way to sneak in morale rerolls), and you're golden as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and adding in fluff on how cultists can ascend to become chaos marines as well to tie them into the army. Like scouts, only without any of that psycho indoctrination or surgical care.

[minigun762]

I like most of that stuff Xeonic.

 

I might steer clear of the special transport, it strikes me as too similar to an Ork Trukk to be honest. I see where you're going with it but I'm not sure how to make it work without being a copy/paste of a Trukk without the Ramshackle rules.

 

I definately think the squad should have Frags naturally as its easily represented by Molotov Cocktails and home made explosives.

 

For me personally, I wouldn't go too heavy on the special rules like summoning or Commisar equivalents. The closer they are to HtH Guardsmen the better in my book because the fact that they would start with 2 CC weapons vs a Lasgun is already a difference and it supports the idea of Chaos being more about close combat generally.

 

For a shooty squad, Heavy Stubber, Sniper Rifle and Grenade Launchers all seem very fitting. Nothing super fancy or energy based.

 

As for the random blowing up, I'm not sure how you could justify that. However taking a demo pack would be a better alternative.

[Wolfbiter]

@Sawtooth: I hear you. There are many great powers and special effects in "Chaos Rising" that I wish could be translated to the tabletop. First game I've played where I'm gleefully turning my squads to evil on the first try. :D

 

@Xeonic and Minigun: I also picture them with roughly Guard-equivalent stats, but a very, very limited weapon choice and probably little or no armor. (6+ or none.) I agree that dedicated transports might make them a little too 'Orky.'

 

Since I, like Sawtooth, am very amused by the idea of blowing up Heretics for benefits, what about a rule that gives +1 to reserve rolls to summon Lesser Daemons when a Heretic unit takes casualties in the previous phase (not cumulative, just +1 no matter how many Heretics are killed in one phase).

 

Hmm...if you did that as an 'upgrade' you could buy for Heretics, I think it would be kind of fun and fluffy for Word Bearers and other 'occult' themed Chaos armies. And you have motivation for them to run recklessly into enemy guns and get sacrificed!

 

Maybe the other upgrade option could be you could pay points to make a squad Infiltrate, but become non-scoring for a 'sneaky' or Alpha Legion-themed army (to represent expendable assets). I'd make them non-scoring in that case because Infiltrating scoring units seems a bit unfair.

[minigun762]

I'd make them non-scoring in that case because Infiltrating scoring units seems a bit unfair.

 

SM Scouts. :P

 

At a minimum, I'd like to see two types of Cultist/Heretic loadouts, assault and shooty

 

Assault = 10-20 GEQs lead by an Asp. Champion. Laspistols/CCW/Frags. Options for Flamer (maybe?) or satchel charge (weaker Demo Charge). Point cost is 60-180 depending on upgrades and bodies.

 

Shooty = 10-20 GEQs lead by an Asp. Champion, Lasguns. Options for Heavy Stubber, Sniper Rifle, Grenade Launcher (1 per 10 maybe?). Point cost is 60-180 depending on upgrades and bodies.

[Walter Payton]

Anyone considered the adversaries rules in Codex: Witch Hunters-I imagine that they would be fine in friendly games, and, against WH, you can always add a lovely Psychic Apocalypse to your lord...

 

HYDRA DOMINATUS, BROTHERS...

[TheDarkApostle]

Take the Word Bearers for example. They do not distribute formations of 30-40 Cultists throughout their Marine forces. They employ thousands upon thousands of them. To put them both in the same army list would require 100+ Cultists for each squad of Word Bearers. But certainly the Word Bearers are not spreading their Astartes suqads thin throughout the cultist formations?

The Index Astartes article would disagree with you :)

 

TDA

[Dark Mechanicum]

Even reading the Dark Apostle series with Marduk you have in the first book, a group of cultists and a squad of WB's, the Cultists become possessed cultists and they go ramshackle through the enemy and then die. Like they are supposed to.

[WarInHeaven]

i always loved cultists/mutants/traitors/zobies

 

what do i miss the days of the Lost and the Damned: "so, you killed another 10 traitors, now how are u planning to kill those Plaige Marines and there 100-ish zombie friends?" :huh:

 

they where great fun, not effective, but fun

[Legatus]

Take the Word Bearers for example. They do not distribute formations of 30-40 Cultists throughout their Marine forces. They employ thousands upon thousands of them. To put them both in the same army list would require 100+ Cultists for each squad of Word Bearers. But certainly the Word Bearers are not spreading their Astartes suqads thin throughout the cultist formations?

The Index Astartes article would disagree with you msn-wink.gif

Mine doesn't. Perhaps your's is different.

[hummus]

maybe have them as penal legions in the previous edition of the ig codex

ie one big unit of cheap ws 2 and bs 2 guys.