Bringing Heretics To 40K?

[WarInHeaven]

maybe have them as penal legions in the previous edition of the ig codex

ie one big unit of cheap ws 2 and bs 2 guys.

those are Conscripts actualy, but in Apoc games they are used as Heretics by some players

[TheDarkApostle]

Take the Word Bearers for example. They do not distribute formations of 30-40 Cultists throughout their Marine forces. They employ thousands upon thousands of them. To put them both in the same army list would require 100+ Cultists for each squad of Word Bearers. But certainly the Word Bearers are not spreading their Astartes suqads thin throughout the cultist formations?

The Index Astartes article would disagree with you msn-wink.gif

Mine doesn't. Perhaps your's is different.

"We killed thousands, yet still they came. A living tide of traitors, herded by the armoured giants in red armour like so much cattle into the teeth of our guns, chanting that damnable litany that infests my head still. ... Yet for all the cruel disregard their masters showed, every traitor died with a beatific smile upon his face..."

[Legatus]

That is consistent with the account of the Word bearer's attack on Calth, where they used millions of cultists as human shields. Now try to explain how that would translate to battle forces cosisting out of 30-40 Word Bearer Marines and 30-40 Cultists, or thousands of cultists at different war zones, all accompanies by a Word Bearer squad or two (as the Host would supposedly be spread throughout these cultist forces). It does rather sound like a Host will throw waves and waves of cultists against an enemy position before the Word Bearer Marines are making their move. Cultists are good to be thrown in the meat grinder. They are not useful enough to equip them with APCs or even take them into shuttles or drop pods to be dropped in the location where the Word Bearers are going to attack. Unless you propose that the Word Bearers usually deploy miles before the enemy lines with their thousands upon thousands of cultists and then start marching towards the front lines, instead of doing the quick insertions Marines are usually known for.

[minigun762]

Wasn't there a story in the IA about a Dark Apostle who gathered up the majority of a planet's population and hurled them at the main defensive position of a planet to occupy their attention while the Legion went around to the back door and said hi?

 

I think it was a pre-Heresy example but it still rings true.

[Wolfbiter]

Given that the Word Bearers IA mentions that Word Bearers warbands are often organized at the whim of the Dark Apostle, sometimes with little or no strategic or tactical justification, it may be difficult to decisively argue whether Word Bearers would or not take cultists as part of a 40k-tabletop scale force.

 

I mean, I can easily picture either of the following Word Bearers scenarios taking place on two very different Monday mornings in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium:

 

Dark Apostle One: (having achieved a solid massacre and a good night's sleep over the weekend) "I am invading Planet Blando! I will take my strongest Astartes, Terminators and armor and scour the world using well-thought out tactical doctrine!"

 

Lackey Number One: "Well thought out sir!"

 

***

 

Dark Apostle Two: (Having been on a three-day ritualized bender in a Slaanesh temple previously, and head is filled with Divinely Inspired Contraband): "Oh, my aching head...I am invading Planet Blando! I will take my strongest Astartes, Terminators and armor and scour the world using well-thought out tactical doctrine!"

 

Lackey Number One: "Well thought out sir!"

 

Dark Apostle Two: "AAARGH! WAAAAIT!" (Clutches head as he is struck by a full on Ruinous Powers Hangover) "The gods have spoken to me in anger! They say we have neglected Monday, the Day of Ritual Very Evil Gifting! On Mondays, we must deploy twenty-and-three Cultists in our vanguard as a sacrifice to the Dark Powers!"

 

Lackey Number One: "Er...isn't that tactically unsound, sir? They're a bit...weedy...compared to our Astartes brethren..."

 

Dark Apostle Two: (draws gun and shoots him) "DO NOT QUESTION THE GODS! Oh, my aching head..."

 

Lackey Number Two: "Well spoken, sir! I never liked Lackey Number One anyway. His doctrine was quite dodgy. I'll just nip out and get those cultists. Should be a splendid offensive. Ta."

 

:P

[Xeonic]

Well, they wouldn't be replacing astartes in a fluff sense, they'd be supplementing them, shielding them, they'd be used(as the storm of iron POWs) to test defences, give cover to advances, and act as massive expendible tarpit units(hooray, a 25 wound powerfist champ!). It's hard to imagine cultists having anything like a chain of command, so it would be almost a requirement to have each group led by an astartes leader.

 

Yes, in tebletop terms they'd replace some marines or something for the points, but they'd add a good deal of variety to certain builds.

Yes, chaos already has a good deal of (argueably) powerful troops choices, is it so strange that they could get a weak one that has merits to make up for it?

 

To answer another previous post, I don't know why you'd want more than one type of cultist, if the unit entry was written with an ounce of sense they'd be plenty configurable for CC or ranged combat.

The profile I posted made them pretty equivalant to a guardsmen squad, so they could represent well trained fanatics or traitor guard...If they were too bad(BS2/WS2) it wouldn't be worth using them. Massive amounts of terrible dice is ork territory, and why would cultists be bad at combat anyways? All they do is grovel, drill and worship, correct? It's not like they have much of a home life to distract them riding in the corner of the hallway of some traitor battlebarge or conscripted transport ship, to be thrown in front of the astartes like a moving coversave.

 

As to them not getting a transport I don't see where a borrowed supply truck would be so bad for them to take as a dedicated transport, just something simple, AV10, and open topped, would fit the bill easy. It's worth noting that the captured guardsmen in storm of iron were moved via trucks that were used to shield the land raiders and rhinos of the iron warriors.

[minigun762]

It's hard to imagine cultists having anything like a chain of command, so it would be almost a requirement to have each group led by an astartes leader.

 

I actually think its easy to imagine them having some kind of heirarchy.

It could be as simple as the first one a Marine talks to is the leader or as complex as you could make it out.

 

It seems to be the case that Cults of all types are very good at putting certain people in positions of power and others as their followers. Even within the cannon fodder there could be rankings (guys in the very front, guys in the second row, third row etc :D )

 

Thats a long winded way of saying a non-Marine squad leader is ok with me.

[Xeonic]

Well okay, I'll give you that, the cultists may have some sort of "chain of command" as the cult belief system propagates itself, but I meant more to relay commands and maintain order in combat with a bunch of scrufty cultist rabble. :)

 

I'd be fine either way personally, or both ways, as you could have that be an option in the unit entry as well, something like...

 

15-30 cultists, one cultist may be upgraded to a cult leader for 10 pts, or an aspiring champion for 25 pts

 

Cult leader would be armed with laspistol and CCW and have limited upgrade options compared to the champ, maybe some different and neat special rules to make them worth taking as an alternative to a PA champ.

Something like...

 

*Statline as IG sergeant*

He may select one of the following special rules for the listed cost: Master Orator for free, Frenzied Zealot 5pt, Purge the Weak! 10pt Cult of the machine 25pts, Devoted to Slaneesh 15pts, Blessing of Nurgle for 15pts.

 

Master Orator: The cultists are lead by persons of great charisma, the best of whom can influence those under their control with a mere word. A cult leader with the master orator skill may allow the squad to reroll one failed leadership test per player turn as long as he is alive.

 

Frenzied Zealot: The cultist leaders are sometimes so zealous that they inspire total belief in their followers. A cult leader with the frenzied zealot skill is fearless, and his entire squad is fearless as long as he is alive.

 

Purge the Weak!: The cultist leader is sometimes in his position by strength of arms alone. A cultist leader with this skill has dedicated his life to khorne and gains the universal special rule Furious charge and+1A. He does not confer these bonuses to his squad.

 

Cult of the Machine: The cultist leader is a corrupted techpriest and as such is equipped with power armor and servo arm. In addition he is BS4.

 

Devoted to Slaneesh: The cultist leader is totally depraved and leads his cult to persue endless pleasure in and out of combat. He replaces his laspistol and ccw with a neural whip which strikes at +1I and counts as a power weapon.

 

Blessing of Nurgle: The cultist leader has dedicated himself to the lord of decay, he exchanges his CCW for a sower of pestulance, which is a poisoned close combat weapon(3+), in addition his squad gains defensive(blight) grenades.

 

The cult leader may exchange his las pistol or CCW for:

a shotgun for free, bolt pistol for 2pts, power weapon or plasma pistol for 10pts

He may take frag and krak grenades for 5pts

 

I don't know how to represent Tz, I'm just playing around, but it all sounds fun to me. :P

[WarInHeaven]

just my 2 cent:

 

• Heretics

Number: 1 prime and 9 heretics

 

Equipment: autogun (prime has auto pistol), close combat weapon, frag grenades

 

Special rules: For Koas!, Champion over Minions, Meat Shields

 

-Option: add up to 40 Heretics for 6 pts/model

-Give one heretic a personal icon for 10 points

-Character: the Prime may become a Chosen of Champion for 15 points, he replaces his equipment with Power armor, Bolt pistol, Close combat weapon, frag & krak grenades

--he may take a Power fist for 25 points or a power weapon for 15 points

 

For Kaos!: sanity (or intelligence) is hard to find among heretics, they may re-roll all leadership tests.

 

Champion over Minions: if the unit has a Champion, he may never be targeted as long as there are Heretics in the unit

 

Meat Shields: the Heretics have no value to Chaos, and there ‘brothers’ are more than willing to remove them. The Chaos payer is free to fire into a combat involving Heretics ( but no other chaos units): after rolls to hit, but before you roll to wound, you roll agian to see who is actually hit: all results of 4+ hits the target, the rest hits the Heretics.

[Yogi]

I hate heretics.. In Chaos Rising Heretics are the essential part of your army while the incredibly slow Chaos space marines simply walk about angry and bewildered. As well as being practically useless.. (this is from 1v1 perspective which is all about map control.)

 

In regular 40k I think heretics have their place.. But I have to say I have zero desire in using them.

[Wolfbiter]

I hate heretics.. In Chaos Rising Heretics are the essential part of your army while the incredibly slow Chaos space marines simply walk about angry and bewildered. As well as being practically useless.. (this is from 1v1 perspective which is all about map control.)

 

In regular 40k I think heretics have their place.. But I have to say I have zero desire in using them.

 

Really? I find Chaos Marines quite effective, but it's important to let your Heretics take the brunt of the firepower and work while you give the Marines an upgrade or two. Once they are upgraded I find them very survivable.

 

But back to the topic at hand...

 

Something to consider regarding transport: Since the latest rules allow squads other than the original assigned to use dedicated transports (ie Rhinos), I personally wouldn't give Heretics a dedicated transport option of their own. (I picture them clinging desperately to the outside of the Rhino). It would probably be important to clarify they wouldn't benefit from protection using a Rhino's fire points the way power armor troops do.

 

I would be reluctant to give a Heretic squad leader a power fist, as I think the utility would be limited (Str 6 max, plus weak squad stats means they'd probably be slaughtered in CC before using it.)

 

However, I'm all for giving them rules that benefit the Chaos army while getting them killed. ^_^ That's how they are pictured in my mind: They're around to take hits and provide sacrifices for the Chaos force.

 

Another question: We've discussed the theme pros and cons for Heretics in a Word Bearers or Alpha Legion-themed force...would people who play other Legions or Warbands find Heretics thematic for their forces? Painting up some Nurgle Heretics might be a fun hobby challenge, for instance.

[minigun762]

Another question: We've discussed the theme pros and cons for Heretics in a Word Bearers or Alpha Legion-themed force...would people who play other Legions or Warbands find Heretics thematic for their forces? Painting up some Nurgle Heretics might be a fun hobby challenge, for instance.

 

I think they're appropriate in all situations.

You could do something that makes them more slave labors instead of combatants. Besides some version of the Techmarines "bolter defenses" I'm not sure how to make that work, maybe have them make trenches that count as difficult/dangerous terrain?

[Canadin]

Heretics have been included both in Chaos Rising and the new "Space Marine" game coming out (go look up the in-game footage)

And it wouldnt be so terrible to give us a nice screening unit, we've had LATD as well as plague zombies in the past, and they were not game-breaking.

 

GW needs to stop releasing Loyalist Codex'es and make a new Chaos one.

 

We have had Wolves, and now Blood Angels, and what looks like Grey Knights next

 

The Chaos army on Dawn of War feels a ton fluffier than the one that is being played on the table top, and I would much rather be able to field cultists/heretics and REAL Daemons (DoW 2 Chaos get bloodletters and bloodcrushers and a Great Unclean One)

 

Not to sound like a troll, but there are many things that should be added to the current Chaos 40k tabletop army

[Argon]

The thing with cultists is that there is no set "look" for them. Traitor Guard, waves of poorly armed cannon fodder, and a horde of angry mutants are all "cultists". They could be well trained commandoes with lasrifles and plasma guns or they could be feral savages with bronze spears.

 

 

I'd enjoy seeing cultists in the Chaos codex. I'd personally go for something like the Cultists in Dawn of War with a bit of the "Traitors" unit in Codex: Witch Hunters. A unit that can be used as cannon fodder, as a tar pit, or as a bit of fire support.

[ashrog]

The thing with cultists is that there is no set "look" for them. Traitor Guard, waves of poorly armed cannon fodder, and a horde of angry mutants are all "cultists". They could be well trained commandoes with lasrifles and plasma guns or they could be feral savages with bronze spears.

 

This is why, if they ever release the fabled "Codex: Legions", I hope Word Bearers and Alpha Legion will get separate entries for two very different kinds of cultists.

 

Word Bearers cultists should be poorly armed and armored, with little or no upgrades. Pure cannon fodder. It would also be awesome if they got an ability that let the controlling player blow one of them up per turn, like a more chaotic version of an orbital strike.

 

Alpha Legion cultists, on the other hand, would be better equipped. Probably equal to an Imperial Guard vet squad.