Of Codex Creep and Balancing

[Brother Nihm]

Recent talk of Codex Creep around here got me thinking.

I find it impossible to compare apples to oranges, so to speak, so here is a listing of just the basic marine troops.

Now if my memory serves they are listed in chronological order - newest first (please correct me if I am wrong). I went by the example of a standard Squad on GW's website. Therefore the squads are by no means 'optimised'.

Also, apart from the Space Wolf GH squad they are more or less identical in setup.

 

 

Blood Angel Tactical Squad: 185 points

1 Space Marine Sergeant with power sword and bolt pistol.

1 Space Marine with melta gun.

1 Space Marine with missile launcher.

7 Space Marines with boltguns and bolt pistols.

All have frag and krak grenades.

Note: ATSKNF, The Red Thirst.

 

Grey Hunter Squad: 170 points

1 Grey Hunter with melta gun.

1 Grey Hunter with melta gun. (free)

1 Grey Hunter with power sword.

7 Grey Hunters with boltguns, bolt pistols and close combat weapon.

All have frag and krak grenades.

Note: no heavy weapon but two specials and no champ/sergeant, Ld 8. They can however take Mark of the Wulfen on 1 model which is arguably better than a base champion. They also have ATSKNF, Acute Senses and Counter-attack.

 

Space Marine Tactical Squad: 190 points

1 Space Marine Sergeant with power sword and bolt pistol.

1 Space Marine with melta gun.

1 Space Marine with missile launcher. (free)

7 Space Marines with boltguns and bolt pistols.

All have frag and krak grenades.

Note: ATSKNF.

 

Chaos Space Marine Squad: 200 points

1 Aspiring Champion with power sword and bolt pistol.

1 Space Marine with melta gun.

1 Space Marine with missile Launcher.

7 CSM with boltguns, close combat weapons and bolt pistols.

All have frag and krak grenades.

 

Dark Angel Tactical Squad: 200

1 Veteran Sergeant with power sword and bolt pistol.

1 Space Marine with melta gun.

1 Space Marine with missile launcher.

7 Space Marines with boltguns and bolt pistols.

All have frag and krak grenades.

Note: ATSKNF.

 

 

Personally speaking I do believe that there is a tendency towards what we know as Codex Creep in the Troops section, particularly in the case of the Space Wolves. But I don't think that it is as bad as most make it out to be. What irks me though is that in the fluff, Basic Legion CSM are supposed to be millennia old veterans and/or backed by the infernal powers of Chaos. When looking at the newer releases "I jus' don't see it captin!" :P

 

What say you guys, is it balancing with regards to the Troop examples above. And when taking into account all the other units available to the various marine 'dexes as well, or do you think it is Codex Creep across the board?

[minigun762]

First off I wanted to say bravo for starting a thread like this Brother Nihm.

 

I think we're all seeing alot of complaining and debating about the newer releases and while some people are getting annoyed but it, it is something that should be talked about as long as we are respectful and patient.

 

That being said, I think its hard not to see the creeping. even more so in the BA and SW codex.

 

Comparing the "Tactical" squad equivalents across the board, it should be obvious that the SW are the best in the majority of situations. The loss of a heavy weapon is more than compensated by the 2x Special Weapons and superior assault abilities. The real kick in the junk is the discounted pricetag. Being 10-15% cheaper might not seem like a big deal until you realize that across a few squads, thats enough for another tank.

 

Having not seen the new BA codex yet, I'll keep my comments short but my understanding is that their Tac Squads are the weaker option compared to their Assault Marines and yet they are still cheaper than equivalent squads. I noticed you didn't give them ATSKNF but is it fair to assume they have it (or Furious Charge depending on the game right?).

[Brother Nihm]

Nice catch, they do of course have ATSKNF, as well as The Red Thirst (a 1 in 6 chance of getting Furious Charge + Fearless).

[Wolfbiter]

Don't forget, Nihm, Chaos Space Marines also have a close combat weapon in addition to their bolter, bolt pistol and grenades. That's a great extra in close combat that I think is often underestimated. In my opinion, having the flexibility to get extra attacks in assault both on offense and defense does help reflect the experience and skill of Chaos Marines.

 

Of course, each of these squads has something extra going for it (aside from the poor, neglected Dark Angels. I do not speak with sarcasm here!). Now, I don't have the BA or SW codex, so I apologize in advance for any errors based on hearsay:

 

1. Blood Angels can get the Red Thirst, which gives extra benefits

2. Grey Hunters get counter-attack

3. Codex Space Marines get Combat Tactics

4. Chaos can buy Icons which can modify their leadership and stats...though they pay extra for this and can lose it, the benefits can significantly boost the squad's durability and effectiveness.

 

Overall, I agree with you that there isn't too much disparity between these basic troop types. I think the main difference between 'newer' and 'older' troops on your list is that Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Codex Marines get upgraded squad leaders for free, while Chaos and Dark Angels must pay extra for them, meaning newer books have more cost-effective Troops. If you deducted the cost of a Champion or Sergeant from the Chaos and DA units, they'd actually be much closer in basic price to the 'newer' troops.

[Cornelias]

the problem with the apparent bonus of us being able to take icons on CSM units is it's very rare that it's useful outside of the Icon of Chaos Glory.

 

Khorne= better off with zerkers for the added furious charge

 

Tzeentch= far too expensive and not really adding much survivability to the squad

 

Nurgle= again better off with cult troops

 

Slaanesh= cheapest of the lot but very situational depending on who your facing can be useless

 

adding to that you can loose the ability quickly becoming more common due to things like telion,blood lance etc. i'd rather we had our old daemons back instead of the generic ones and have to bear the correct icon for each power for summoning.

 

 

regarding codex creeping and the lower points costs as you pointed out, we'll just have to wait it out for our turn and hope they are equally generous ^_^

[Ashe Darke]

Overall, I agree with you that there isn't too much disparity between these basic troop types. I think the main difference between 'newer' and 'older' troops on your list is that Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Codex Marines get upgraded squad leaders for free, while Chaos and Dark Angels must pay extra for them, meaning newer books have more cost-effective Troops. If you deducted the cost of a Champion or Sergeant from the Chaos and DA units, they'd actually be much closer in basic price to the 'newer' troops.

While it does make things a bit simpler they still pay for them. Tactical marines are 16pts so 5 would 80pts, but the first 5 you get are 90pts because of the Sergeant so he's not really free but he is cheaper than our champions.

 

That said the ability to not have a champion is quite nice, the flexibility reflecting the Chaos marines fractured state. For example we're playing a campaign at our LGS and for every 5 hexes you hold you get you get an extra 150pts to add to your 1000pt list (any points left over from the 1000pts cannot be spent in conjuncture with the extra points). Now for 150pts I can get 5 Plague Marines and a Rhino, but if it was like XXXpts for 1 Champ and 4 Plague Marines I wouldn't be able to get the Rhino as the basic price would higher. Sure it's only 5 guys but they will be handy in objective missions. I'm taking 2 more Oblits anyway but you can see where the flexibility is useful.

 

I hope the next Chaos Codex retains this flexibility.

 

To be honest I still think we have some of the best troop choices in the game and my concern as well as loosing flexibility is the potential of our troops suffering and being made worse. I just love my Plague Marines so much, I don't want them to be downgraded :(

[the jeske]

unit per unit it aint that bad [even if sw are cheaper] the real fun begins when one starts to think about army wide buffs and specials characters [and after that support units]. each army needs an hq , a chaos will have one [or two] and an sm one will have one[or two] , but the csm one does one thing HTH and thats all , the sm one is vulkan or pedro . even in less flexible dex like sw or BAs the specials open up the way for new builds and new unit combos making units that are normaly unplayable , at least tier 2 [or more] . the real power of the new dex is their flexibity and the number of options per slots and their combinations that are viable [we dont have that at all] . I can try out a BA army like a counter list with dreads RAS and tacs and a libby as HQ or I can take seth with 3 RAS more baals [aka 3] . and that is not all , I can run the RAS+ seth as a rhino rush with more squads and more support or I can scratch support and go for an LR rush build .

Of course unit per unit compering is important [and duh zerkers and pms are best option , but we knew that in 4th ed] , but it is the lack of varity in the support section that is our bane . We are a one trick one build with two lists codex.

 

 

 

Don't forget, Nihm, Chaos Space Marines also have a close combat weapon in addition to their bolter, bolt pistol and grenades. That's a great extra in close combat that I think is often underestimated. In my opinion, having the flexibility to get extra attacks in assault both on offense and defense does help reflect the experience and skill of Chaos Marines

sw have that too[and are cheaper] for a hth army like BA the lack of bolters aint a problem and if they want a camper they can always take a tac [again cheaper with the same load out as our hvy weapon/special squads].

[Rain]

What jeske said. It's not so much that individual units (especially troops choices) creep all that much, it's more that those units can generally be "upgraded" with special characters, etc and that "upgrade" is essentially free, or even if it takes up a lot of the char's points (which is arguable) it doesn't cost more per each other unit it affects, so in larger games it becomes very cheap on a per unit basis. It's like if Chaos just payed for the mark for the HQ choice and the rest of the army automatically got the same mark for free.

 

Furthermore, they keep adding special rules and gimmick units to newer armies that just aren't there for certain older ones. Although this might not be such a big deal if you know your opponent ahead of time, if you generally only play random pickup games, it really makes the meta-game harder as now you have to be able to counter all of the weird combos that these lists can throw at you. As a chaos player though I'm pretty predictable. I will try to get close to you and then melta/punch you to death while my oblits shoot lascannons at your tanks or drop plasma on any exposed heavy infantry. I do this with rhinos and a flying daemon prince. I highly doubt many of you can honestly say you do something different. Furthermore most of those units have basic marine statlines that pretty much everyone is well armed against, and except for oblits nothing too gimmicky or special.

[Hfran Morkai]

Personally speaking I do believe that there is a tendency towards what we know as Codex Creep in the Troops section, particularly in the case of the Space Wolves. But I don't think that it is as bad as most make it out to be.

 

I agree with your point here.

 

SW's got buffed but it wasn't surprising we were going to get some new kit (Bolt Pistols on Grey Hunters) considering True Grit was removed from the Universal Special Rules, they had to account for the Wolves' way of war somehow which they did by providing us with three weapons. Counter attack was always there.

 

We used to have "No matter the odds" meaning that SW's ignored outnumbering in combat, a pretty useful ability which I reckon we paid for in our old base cost but I feel we should still be at least the same cost as Tactical Marines, I did some thinking on reasons why we happen to be cheaper. The first and what I thought most obvious reason was that they had overpriced Tactical Marines (I know how much it hurts when your troops cost too much, old school Grey Hunters would be 21 pts a model if kitted out the same as current Tacticals) but the new BA codex kind of disproved that point, being roughly the same cost for a similar squad.Then I thought it might be due to the actual unit composition as a whole, due to the lack of heavy weapon (which should never be underestimated for holding objectives) and more critically having to use an elites slot to gain access to Sergeant equivalents for that Leadership 9, sure we can have a special close combat weapon in the pack but the leadership is incredibly useful, forcing me to make decisions that could affect the rest of my list, if I want a mechanized list I have to decide whether I want two special weapons or a WG in my packs.

 

Problem is, analyzing Codex trends seems very easy, but in fact is incredibly hard. Units should not be considered in isolation but comparing entire lists is almost impossible with the level of complexity. It does feel that with new codexes we are seeing buffs in various areas, I merely find this interesting as opposed to annoying though and I hope new codexes will allow for great variety in successful builds for the future.

[Ashe Darke]

Then I thought it might be due to the actual unit composition as a whole, due to the lack of heavy weapon (which should never be underestimated for holding objectives) and more critically having to use an elites slot to gain access to Sergeant equivalents for that Leadership 9, sure we can have a special close combat weapon in the pack but the leadership is incredibly useful, forcing me to make decisions that could affect the rest of my list, if I want a mechanized list I have to decide whether I want two special weapons or a WG in my packs.

This is precisely the kinda thing I don't wanna see with the new Codex. It's the same with Sanguinary Priests, either FnP, 1 special weapon and Mechanised or 2 special weapons and on foot. Hopefully we won't have to attach IC to our units to get buffs as that would be lame. In fact I can see it now, Icon Bearers as an IC you attach to the unit, making it worse than it is now B)

[the jeske]

Units should not be considered in isolation but comparing entire lists is almost impossible with the level of complexity.

I dont know but for me it is not that hard. You take a build [LR rush , mecha , gunline or slogger] and do the with two dexs . For example all hth sm armies[sw, chaos , BT, BA] can make a LR rush army . Each one of those codex makes a simiular [in game play] list , but some are more efficient then others. For example the BT one suffers from low number of hidden fist attacks , chaos is forced to run a zerker or pm buil[what means problems with eldar for example] to fit in HQs to baby sit the LR squads[and again non DP HQs kind of a suck] . Sw have the 2 specials problems, if they want a higher Ld and more power weapon/fist attacks , LR also dont support the best HQ sw have the cheap RP. Both the SW and chaos will have problems with heavy support [oblits are hvy as are Long Fangs , SW dont have MM attack bike squads and bike squads with bs3 arent the best support unit . or at least not in a LR rush build. has has no viable FA] .

 

And then come the BAs. Chance for FC/FnP , two or three models with power weapons[HQ,sgt and the priest . 2 of which can be picked out , but with I5 they do hit faster] . It aint game breaking , but then you notice that they get cheaper LR if RAS dont take jump packs [freeing up hvy support] and that baals and rhinos are fast . Yes they will cost more then a 1500-1750 pts chaos/sw LR rush build[but then again it is not like you have to take the priest for every unit] , but its not more then one squad [~200pts mostly because we save on two LR] difference and at the same time their units have a way better synergy. That doesnt make BAs broken or uber , am far from thinking like that , but it does make them a more efficient LR rush army.

 

I dont remember[sorry am a bit old and my memory doesnt work so well] who it was chill or minigun , but I remember two identical list csm and sw both with identical arment [well more or less] and the SW army was a pred cheaper .

 

Hopefully we won't have to attach IC to our units to get buffs as that would be lame.

am not sure If I wrote it before but the idea in itself aint that bad . Imagine our 3 HQ options right now the DP is just plain better . But what if the sorc gave us anti psyker power[am not saying hood , but some chaos runs that worked like shadow of the warp , forced psychic test to be made with -1Ld ] with the same cost and same stats . DP would still be a better hth monster , but a sorc would have his uses too . More we could take the same lord we have now and say that for each lord taken one unit[not a tank , single model or MC so no lord giving infiltration to a warp time nurgle DP] can gains FC/Infiltrate/Hit and Run/Tank hunter etc . Same cost or maybe even 20-25 pts more , but just think about the options . havocks made viable again [and suddenly oblits are not the only hvy support worth thinking about] , LR rush with csm [dont need HQ to baby sit when your str5 i5 , more it makes IoK a very interesting option . gone would be the times of "only IoCU ever"] , AL guys would get their infiltration dudes [and remember the flexibilty one battle you infiltrate your csm and maybe put them in to reservs against another you infiltrate your havocks ] , demons dont have marks but you want to play with many in your WB list ?? here you go take two 16-20 units with FC or hit an run.

 

I could live with a codex like that , would still have less combinations and fewer builds[and no legion rules ,] then 3.5 but at least chaos wouldnt be so boring .

[Ashe Darke]

I know what you're saying Jeske, and I agree more is good. But if they make it so the whole point of a unit that has been re-written is to add this guy to the unit to actually make them worth a damn, but then make you decide between a Rhino or two special weapons, that's what I don't like the idea of. And there has been a trend of that in the SM codexes. And I don't know if that is just those books because they're Imperial but it's set a strong theme.

 

Sure adding ICs to give unit buffs is fine, but I'm just hoping it doesn't come with a compromise. I'm pretty sure it will be fine though, I can't see them forcing the Legion troop choices having to take set amounts to take 2 specials as people will still wanna take the God numbers etc. Forcing PM squads to 10 to get two would aggravate too many people.

[minigun762]

I would like it to work this way.

 

1) Taking certain HQ units gives the rest of the army bonuses (Nurgle HQ ---> FnP to all units or +1 Toughness for example)

2) I do not want to have to take some random Plague Marine Champion who uses up an Elite or Heavy slot to gain the same bonus.

 

And for the love, don't forget that not everyone plays a Cult army. Give us Undivided people some love as well! :lol:

[Brother Nihm]

That being said, I think its hard not to see the creeping. even more so in the BA and SW codex.

 

Comparing the "Tactical" squad equivalents across the board, it should be obvious that the SW are the best in the majority of situations. The loss of a heavy weapon is more than compensated by the 2x Special Weapons and superior assault abilities. The real kick in the junk is the discounted pricetag. Being 10-15% cheaper might not seem like a big deal until you realize that across a few squads, thats enough for another tank.

Aye, that is why I didn't want to compare whole lists at the get-go, because it opens up for various interpretations and I didn't want to come across as negative. But while the changes and balancing might be small, in the case of the BA 15 points here, a free piece of wargear there. In the end you end up with an almost identical army. Only with one extra tank or squad and more weapons/abilities. I don't believe that all armies should be equal, but they should each play to their strengths and not have changes wrought upon them that are so game altering as the above example.

 

Don't forget, Nihm, Chaos Space Marines also have a close combat weapon in addition to their bolter, bolt pistol and grenades. That's a great extra in close combat that I think is often underestimated. In my opinion, having the flexibility to get extra attacks in assault both on offense and defense does help reflect the experience and skill of Chaos Marines.

Very true, but I don't agree 100% with the CCW part, I would like it if they had Chosen (pun intended) to show the experience of the Traitor Marines differently.

 

I think the main difference between 'newer' and 'older' troops on your list is that Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Codex Marines get upgraded squad leaders for free, while Chaos and Dark Angels must pay extra for them, meaning newer books have more cost-effective Troops. If you deducted the cost of a Champion or Sergeant from the Chaos and DA units, they'd actually be much closer in basic price to the 'newer' troops.

You nailed it on the head, cost effectiveness. This is where the older codices appear to be struggling. While not entirely free (as Ashe Darke points out) they are cheaper than ours and nearly identical.

 

the problem with the apparent bonus of us being able to take icons on CSM units is it's very rare that it's useful outside of the Icon of Chaos Glory.

Indeed, myself and some of the older local Chaos players don't even take Icons of Chaos Glory any more because we want to cram as many units in as we can in order to remain competitive vs our local meta-game - which is to unload a ton of units with minimal upgrades.

 

unit per unit it aint that bad [even if sw are cheaper] the real fun begins when one starts to think about army wide buffs and specials characters [and after that support units]. each army needs an hq , a chaos will have one [or two] and an sm one will have one[or two] , but the csm one does one thing HTH and thats all , the sm one is vulkan or pedro . even in less flexible dex like sw or BAs the specials open up the way for new builds and new unit combos making units that are normaly unplayable

Exactly, all the newer books bear the marks of variance and open up to many new and interesting strategies & builds. The older books are quite fixed, Chaos in particular because since the removal of the Legion rules, many still struggle to capture the essence of their Legion through list-building. And then we have many units (Fast Attack in particular) that are downright crappy.

 

Furthermore, they keep adding special rules and gimmick units to newer armies that just aren't there for certain older ones. Although this might not be such a big deal if you know your opponent ahead of time, if you generally only play random pickup games, it really makes the meta-game harder as now you have to be able to counter all of the weird combos that these lists can throw at you. As a chaos player though I'm pretty predictable. I will try to get close to you and then melta/punch you to death while my oblits shoot lascannons at your tanks or drop plasma on any exposed heavy infantry. I do this with rhinos and a flying daemon prince. I highly doubt many of you can honestly say you do something different. Furthermore most of those units have basic marine statlines that pretty much everyone is well armed against, and except for oblits nothing too gimmicky or special.

That is exactly what I mean (and do myself).

 

Problem is, analyzing Codex trends seems very easy, but in fact is incredibly hard. Units should not be considered in isolation but comparing entire lists is almost impossible with the level of complexity. It does feel that with new codexes we are seeing buffs in various areas, I merely find this interesting as opposed to annoying though and I hope new codexes will allow for great variety in successful builds for the future.

Hear hear! I hope that it doesn't take them too long to bring all the older lists into line with 5th ed. It has already taken far too long in my opinion. (note us Chaos players are technically still not in 5th ed. as the Codex was released prior to 5th.)

 

 

Great input everyone. :P

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, yes the Blood Angels Tacticals are cheaper than the Codex equivilent, whilst the Grey Hunters are cheaper still, in comparison to the Chaos Marines equivilent.

 

But the reasons for this is not actually Codex Creep but army balance. Allow me to explain:

 

The Blood Angels Tacticals have to compete with alot of Assault options in the Codex and the army behaves in a way that makes Tactical squads a liability. Choosing a Tactical squad takes away points that could be spent on more assault options, thus weakening the Blood Angels player's ability to launch successful assault.

 

Space Wolves players have the problem that Grey Hunters are assault based, and don't have decent ranged firepower in the form of a heavy weapon. They lose the tactical (no pun included!) flexibility all the other Marines armies have with their Tactical Marines. Sure Vulkan players are angry about Grey Hunters as they prefer to get up close with their twin linked weapons, but the rest of us can enjoy firing the heavy weapon from a fire point on an objective or just to weaken opponents before a round of bolter shock etc. Grey Hunters cannot do that and must get close to be able to damage enemies.

 

Chaos Marines are more expensive and are in complete competition with other powerful troops choice. The water is a little murkier here because the Chaos Codex sucks so much, but the main reason is what the Chaos Marines squads give the Chaos player and that is ranged capacity in an army with lots of assault troops, plus numbers on the board to take objectives. They clock in slightly cheaper than Thousand Sons and Noise Marines, and are therefore cost effective to hold objectives. They can do this plus have flexibility to be able to assault well. Hence the slightly more expensive troops choice.

 

Tactical Marines actually come cheaper than Chaos Marines but are inferior in assaults and equal in shooting so the 10 points you have shown as an example above is more than worth it. This means Codex Tacticals missed the boat if Codex Creep is true. However, most people can agree that they are pretty effective on the table, provided they are supported by shooting and assault specialists (depending whether you are hanging back or rushing forward to bolter shock.

 

I won't talk about Dark Angels Tacticals because they are a fair point - their Codex is rubbish (not that I'm saying they can't win games, but the Codex book lacks heart and soul etc)

[Ashe Darke]

I wouldn't say the Chaos Codex sucks on a game play level. The top two players at the UK GT were both CSM.

[Hfran Morkai]

I think the main difference between 'newer' and 'older' troops on your list is that Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Codex Marines get upgraded squad leaders for free.

 

Didn't catch this first time round, Space Wolves do not get upgraded pack leaders for free, in a way ours are even more expensive by taking up an elites slot which could be used elsewhere, though it does mean we can have a five man Terminator pack with to heavy weapons or give heavy weapons to other packs.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the main difference between 'newer' and 'older' troops on your list is that Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Codex Marines get upgraded squad leaders for free.

 

Didn't catch this first time round, Space Wolves do not get upgraded pack leaders for free, in a way ours are even more expensive by taking up an elites slot which could be used elsewhere, though it does mean we can have a five man Terminator pack with to heavy weapons or give heavy weapons to other packs.

 

Yeah, forgot to put that into my post above - another reason why they appear so cheap in comparison to their abilities.

 

I wouldn't say the Chaos Codex sucks on a game play level. The top two players at the UK GT were both CSM.

 

Nor would I, but that doesn't mean their Codex doesn't suck. Hard. :D

[Dryad]

I wouldn't say the Chaos Codex sucks on a game play level. The top two players at the UK GT were both CSM.

 

And let me guess, their lists consisted of Daemon Princes, Plague Marines, and Obliterators... I don't doubt that carbon copy Chaos is still very competitive and has survived codex creep.

 

 

Just one observation about troops in general. The cult troops are competitive, fluffy, and perfectly priced. Even against 5th edition codices, the cult troops hold their own and maintain great game balance. Gav was right when he worte them in instead of the old 3.5 approach to gaining cult troops through mark purchases.

 

Its the CSMs and Chosen that taste like tofu. There is abosolutely NO opportunity cost incentive to take them over a cult troop. 10,000 year old traitor Space Marines need some damn flavour too! They were just thrown in the book without any rational thought put into them...

 

And this sucks for Undivided players... My list is based around CSMs and Chosen. But I hate hearing all the whispers telling me to use other codices like BA, SW, or even vanilla SM as a more appropriate and competitive representation of my models. It's sad really, I'm fighting off the urge to consider codex 'counts-as' because I don't want to be 'one of those guys'...

 

I just want some characterful Undivided choices...

[BrotherMoses]

I'm not going to troll or tell you guys to suck it up like I may have done in the past.

 

I am going to say that if/when you do get your 5th edition codex you guys will probably be feared again.

 

If Robin Cruddace gets it, you guys will probably get a complete revamp (which I see you needing at this point almost) and will have lots of really neat synergies and a balanced well-written codex.

 

If Matt Ward gets you, everyone will fear Khârn, Typhus, Abbaddon, etc. beyond rational thought and you'll have several fun and powerful builds in your codex. I think Matt Ward fits the Chaos Space Marine style a little more than Robin, because he's so 'hero-centric'. Chaos champions and special characters will be very potent if he does the codex.

 

So good luck to you, be patient, and don't harrass Gav Thorpe.

[minigun762]

As for the squad leader being built in or not, I like how its included in the SM codex and I think most of the time, it should be that way. In even makes sense with Chaos as Chaos has a big focus on individual success and promotion for glory and the dark gods, so having that Champion works towards maintaining that feel.

 

Of course if it is standard, it gives you something to play with with non-standard armies like SW. As a background point, I fully support the idea of Grey Hunters not coming with leaders as standard because of their unique way of working together and non-Codex unit composition. The exact same arguement would work for Black Templar for the same reason.

 

On a Chaos only point, I think the main kick in the butt with CSMs is that they are typically have more experience and capabilities compared to their Loyalist brothers but its not reflected. Most people (myself included) think that your average CSM is more in line with a Veteran/Sternguard/Vanguard Marine instead of your basic battle brother. Because of this, we assume that we will pay more for CSMs but they will be more powerful in comparison. The old Veteran skills was a perfect tool for this.

 

Best of all, it puts Undivided Marines on the same playing field as Cult troops.

[BrotherMoses]

On a Chaos only point, I think the main kick in the butt with CSMs is that they are typically have more experience and capabilities compared to their Loyalist brothers but its not reflected. Most people (myself included) think that your average CSM is more in line with a Veteran/Sternguard/Vanguard Marine instead of your basic battle brother. Because of this, we assume that we will pay more for CSMs but they will be more powerful in comparison. The old Veteran skills was a perfect tool for this.

 

Not reflected? Aren't CSMs leadership 10 with ubergrit?

 

I do agree with just about everything else in your post though.

[minigun762]

Not reflected? Aren't CSMs leadership 10 with ubergrit?

 

I do agree with just about everything else in your post though.

 

Not when SW get Ubergrit as well or Loyalist Marines get free weapons. Plus we are only trading LD10 (with a Champion) for ATSKNF. Most of the time, I would say that LD9 + ATSKNF is superior to LD10.

 

That is my opinion though.

[BrotherMoses]

I'm willing to admit you need some point cost reductions here or there.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Traitor Astartes are - generally - millenia old veterans, or so goes all the fluff I've ever come across about them, so is this reflected in the current rules? I have the CSM Codex but havn't given it a decent read yet.