Of Codex Creep and Balancing

[minigun762]

Traitor Astartes are - generally - millenia old veterans, or so goes all the fluff I've ever come across about them, so is this reflected in the current rules?

 

See above.

Right now, its Ubergrit + LD9/10 instead of LD8/9 (with the loss of ATSKNF).

[Ashe Darke]

It's millennia in real time but for them it is most likely a lot shorter due to the warp so they're not as old as you'd think.

[Shayn]

I would like to see something to differentiate the older 9 legions from the new comer "Renegade" chapters who are some Johnny come lately. I think the 10 Millennia old legion members need advantages the newer units do not get to represent experience as well as older, "not lost" technologies. The Renegades should get different equipment choices more like the Emperor's lap dogs to represent their only recently turning to chaos. If not two separate codices to represent the differences, then perhaps a massive codex to cover them all. Just as long as they do not skimp on fluff to cram in everything.

[the jeske]

It's millennia in real time but for them it is most likely a lot shorter due to the warp so they're not as old as you'd think.

the fluff says that form some it is shorter . this means that other are full 10k in the eye and other are even longer.

 

 

 

rules wise csm are not more veteran then SW and chaos HQ [that are not a demon prince] seem all to be less powerful then their loyalist counter parts. A RP or libby is more powerful then any sorc , not just because of the bigger number of psychic powers that work [most chaos ones "work" only because they are used by DP anyway]. Ahriman ,when compered to mefiston , Njal or tigurius ,doesnt look like the greatest sorc since magnus , that opened the secrets of the black library .

[Ashe Darke]

Well didn't they find a marine that had actually been alive since the heresy in one of the Salamander books? He was pretty much dead.

 

I don't think many would have spent their time in there experiencing 'real time' or 'longer than real time' although it is not an impossibility.

 

But take Soul Hunter for example. To the universe it has been 10,000 years since the heresy began, to them it was less than a century. While it's not gonna like that for everyone, it gives you an idea. There are some loyalists who have lived longer than this.

 

I imagine to the universe it feels like a bit of a long time between black crusades where as for Abaddon it's one after the other, starting up plans for the next one once he gets back from his last failure. Well I think it's a funny image anyway.

[David the Despoiler]

Ah, but remember, in the Horus Heresy books Space Marines are described as being immortal. They suffer no disease, they hardly age, etc. If they DID survive for longer then real time, they spent a good chunk of that in the warp, training or making sacrifices/ prayers to the Dark Gods, which initself could be a source of longevity beyond the life of a Space Marine. Space Marines don't spend nearly as much of their time in conflict with a legitimate foe as the Traitors do. The Space Marines are called in to put random Ork insurrections, to take down traitor Guardsmen, fight a growing pack of Gaunts, not just the grand armies of Chaos, huge Ork Waaaghs that can drown a star-system or daemonic insurrections that would make the Grey Knights sweat under their helmets.

 

Space Marines may be FAMED for their action in such theaters of war, but that is hardly where they are ONLY called.

 

What I'm trying to say is that age would not be a danger for a Chaos Space Marine. If they die, it is in combat. And they see much more combat then a Space Marine would do to the sheer amount of conflict in the Eye of Terror, Marine versus Marine.

 

Codex Creeping-wise, I've noticed the same thing happening. However, points-wise, we still have the most powerful troop choices in the games. Our Khorne Berzerkers can stand toe to toe with some of the other armies Elites and Fast Attack assault-oriented foes and tear them limb-from-limb.

 

Plague Marines can take more shooting then any Power Armored unit out there and survive nearly unscathed. Short of dedicating an Orbital Strike or two on them, perhaps several Vindicator/ Basilisk shots, they ought to shrug and ask for more.

 

Yeah, sure, our basic CSM are becoming worst in comparison to other armies, but our Cult troops remain the most powerful troop choice in the game.

 

 

But, basic-Marine wise, aye, we are getting short-ended.

[Canadin]

And this sucks for Undivided players... My list is based around CSMs and Chosen. But I hate hearing all the whispers telling me to use other codices like BA, SW, or even vanilla SM as a more appropriate and competitive representation of my models. It's sad really, I'm fighting off the urge to consider codex 'counts-as' because I don't want to be 'one of those guys'...

 

I just want some characterful Undivided choices...

 

But, basic-Marine wise, aye, we are getting short-ended.

 

 

I Actually find that our Tac marines are better than their loyalist cousins. Having LD 10 I find to be a LOT better than ATSKNF, Im much happier with my Ld 10 squads with re-roll who both stand their ground and get extra melee attacks over a squad they gets to turn around AFTER they start running

 

Also, I find cult troops too expensive, why pay 21pts a model for a berzerker when a khorne marine which gets things like flamers and meltas and bolters costs like 4-5 points less (depending on squad size)

 

I feild regular chaos marines, Havoks, and Chosen as the majority of my army, they are cheap, high LD, get many melee attacks, either super LD or tons of melee wit Khorne (which is only like 2 pts a model in a 15 man squad)

 

BA pays 20 pts a dude for death company. I get the same model for 17 points, except mine can shoot AND beat up in melee, and face it, furious charge is NOT consistent, I can disrupt your whole furious charge by summoning 5 cheapie daemons and making the penalty shot wall in front of my CSM unit, oh right, the last and maybe best part about my cheapie CSM, they summon cheapie daemons!

 

My havoks and chosen can hold points on the basis that I have 4 units of 5 lesser daemons in big games (65 pts each; 4 units for 260) CSM basic troops are good in my opinion! They stand their ground with teh best LD on any troop I know of (cuz getting tank shok'd off the board aint much fun with transports all over 5th ed) they are cheap in big units (and who needs many units when every unit on teh board can score points with lesser daemons?)

 

Yes our codex has no fluff,.... and my renegade devastators have to throw away their Multi-Meltas and Plasma Cannons when they turn to the dark side,.... But they get better LD, 2CCW, and Autocannons. And even if my HQ daemon prince doesnt do ANYTHING near what my old 250 point super Khorne Death Prince used to do, but MK and Wings is only 140 points, lets see the SM monstrous creature HQ... Im sure it costs more, and isnt immune to instant death (Vulcans a lot, and Logan Grimsomething is expensive too)... Yes teh rules say that our marines are more experienced,.... but what the codex says is that they are relatively cheap for what they get; so they're more like the Marines that shop at Walmart than the supersoldiers of the Warp....

 

All Im saying is that the CSM codex DOES stand up to the Loyalist ones... Even if all the fluff was beat out of it leaving us nothing but flavourless marines with too much wargear... we DO have flavourless marines with too much wargear... I mean MY assault marines (lesser deamon) costs only 13 points (compared to 20) and it gets to deepstrike without error, and then assault

 

So yeah, that my rant. CSM may have no fluff-based rules, but the army works fine, and you dont have to play Lash-Princess'es-Oblitzerators-Plague Marines

[Rain]

Sorry but I gotta disagree with some of your points Canadin. First of all, Berzerkers are a lot better than Khorne icon CSM's in my opinion. Khorne CSM are effectively 18 pts/model (keeping the squad at 10 to use a rhino) so for +3 points zerks get both Furious Charge and +1 WS. Those are worth more than just 3pts/model. Also zerks can never become less angry because some guy dropped a stick, Khorne CSM can, and with 5th edition wound allocation rules, this can happen more often than you'd like.

 

Also Ld10 is a lot worse than LD9 with ATSKNF in most cases. The only real advantage of LD10 is that you get slightly higher LD for pinning checks (and a reroll with IoCG). The downside is that you can be routed when below 50% (which is a real ----- in late game when trying to grab objectives in the 11th hour) and you can be wiped by sweeping advance. Plus there are situations in which running away is advisable considering that you get a free rally and don't count as moving your next turn. A combat against a dreadnought or wraithlord without powerfists springs to mind.

 

As for disrupting furious charge with 5 daemons, well good luck with that, as with all things the player still matters and if a guy is letting you charge his furious charge units, he is obviously doing something wrong, especially in an army that isn't completely composed of furious charge units like Orks since he should be paying special attention to that unit and making sure it gets the charge and therefore performs as it should.

[Nehekhare]

everybody seems to forget the fearlessness problem:

1) cult troops (including oblits), daemons and characters are also fearless, which is better than ATSKNF (exept for daemons who don't have the armor to withstand loosing combat)

2) all others are not, with no option, thus creating the problem that attached characters actually LOOSE that rule. At least some cult terminators would have been nice.

[the jeske]

the IoCU is good only in shoting situations to be honest , when you get in to hth and loose a sm tactical falls back and regroups , a csm squad does a Ld test with -2/3 and if it gets cought it dies.

 

Also, I find cult troops too expensive, why pay 21pts a model for a berzerker when a khorne marine which gets things like flamers and meltas and bolters costs like 4-5 points less (depending on squad size)

because you trade better kill power [higher WS more attacks without fear of losing an icon etc] for 2 squads with melta . you still can run those on your other two squads[probably pms] . also because zerkers are so efficient in hth you are not forced to run 10 man squads , you run 8 and then the point difference of a unit of zerkers and csm is almost non.

 

 

 

My havoks and chosen can hold points on the basis that I have 4 units of 5 lesser daemons in big games (65 pts each; 4 units for 260) CSM basic troops are good in my opinion!

easy kill points , no matter what points you play . I have yet to see an army other then tau or necron that has problems with 5 demons . + your saying big games , but most games are played at 1500-1850 [+ am having problems to imagine how effective small demon units are in 2250+ games , because the more points are played the easier it is to kill them and the easier it is to ignore the unit they tar pit].

I mean MY assault marines (lesser deamon) costs only 13 points (compared to 20) and it gets to deepstrike without error, and then assault

when you have an icon near by and its random entry , not sm with their first turn drop pod assault . a demon costs 2 less points then a naked csm and the csm is always on the table with better save , same number of attacks and range attacks . Outside maybe 1ksons there are no lists that use demons and 1ksons use them only because they are not viable anyway and have no other source of cheaper troops. If spawns were troops they would have used them.

[Prot]

As far as I'm concerned, the new Blood Angels are the best Chaos codex you could use.

 

They are deviants, corrupt, and represent most of the Legions in one way or another. This is closer to Chaos than Chaos is. Oh, and as a side bonus their dreadnoughts rock too.

 

Discuss. B)

[minigun762]

As far as I'm concerned, the new Blood Angels are the best Chaos codex you could use.

 

I don't know, I think SW might have them beat as the more Chaos codex.

 

The emphasis on powerful leaders and unique wargear mixed with non-standard organization seems pretty Chaotic to me.

[Lexington]

As far as I'm concerned, the new Blood Angels are the best Chaos codex you could use.

Heck, it's the best C:SM list you could use as well. I fully expect 75% of 40K armies to be playing with the Blood Angels rules by month's end.

 

"Yeah, I'm using the Tau Battlesuit model, but it uses the rules for a Librarian Dreadnought! Counts-as, man!"

[Prot]

As far as I'm concerned, the new Blood Angels are the best Chaos codex you could use.

Heck, it's the best C:SM list you could use as well. I fully expect 75% of 40K armies to be playing with the Blood Angels rules by month's end.

 

"Yeah, I'm using the Tau Battlesuit model, but it uses the rules for a Librarian Dreadnought! Counts-as, man!"

 

That maybe true, but it fits the deviant nature of Chaos probably better than.. Chaos.

 

I don't know, I think SW might have them beat as the more Chaos codex.

 

Seriously? I know Wolves do divert from the wonderful writings of the beloved Guilleman, but how about chopping heads off of raging Blood Angels? Or blood drinking? Sounds about as bizzarre as something like Khorne to me. Actually even World Eaters aren't that nasty (rules wise). Blood Angels are definitely more Chaos than any codex I can think of right now... including Chaos.

 

That Tau reference made me laugh though as I watched a friend 'proxy' Tau fishboats as the new Blood Angel Skimmers. (nasty!)

[Lexington]

That maybe true, but it fits the deviant nature of Chaos probably better than.. Chaos.

Can't say I see it, man. Where are the Reaper Autocannons, the combi-armament Terminators, the summoned daemons, the Daemon Princes, the Cult troops, and all of the other things that've defined the Chaos Space Marines for the decade and a half since the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex?

 

It's funny, y'know. You see endless threads about how to better represent Chaos or 8th Company or whatever else with one of the new Power Armor books because they "fit the fluff," but no one ever, say, sticks to the Blood Angels PDF Codex, despite it being a much better representation of their background than this new book.

 

Wonder why that is. :tu:

[Hfran Morkai]

It's funny, y'know. You see endless threads about how to better represent Chaos or 8th Company or whatever else with one of the new Power Armor books because they "fit the fluff," but no one ever, say, sticks to the Blood Angels PDF Codex, despite it being a much better representation of their background than this new book.

 

Wonder why that is. :tu:

 

Doesn't help that the older Codeci are no longer valid, though I do find it interesting that when the new Wolf Codex was released a lot of people were going on about an HQ dread and TDA "sergeants" for Iron Hands (Which I have no issue with) though that could all be done with our old codex, which was still competitive up until our October release.

[Vissah]

It's funny, y'know. You see endless threads about how to better represent Chaos or 8th Company or whatever else with one of the new Power Armor books because they "fit the fluff," but no one ever, say, sticks to the Blood Angels PDF Codex, despite it being a much better representation of their background than this new book.

 

Wonder why that is. :P

 

Doesn't help that the older Codeci are no longer valid, though I do find it interesting that when the new Wolf Codex was released a lot of people were going on about an HQ dread and TDA "sergeants" for Iron Hands (Which I have no issue with) though that could all be done with our old codex, which was still competitive up until our October release.

 

Cause its all about the bandwaggon mate it makes for such a nice ride :D

A new thing comes out and people wants to play it you cant argue with that cause hey I want to play with new stuff aswell but I will stay with the Chaos dex for my Sons of Horus.

 

It are just exuses made up by people to play with a newer and maybe more powerfull dex so they say yeah this represents that and that represents this better than the Chaos dex.

I like playing with most of my army made out of tacticals so I made lists around them with Codex SM that did not work out for me so I decided to use the Chaos dex so my Marines are stronger and more alrounder and fit my playstyle b etter, also the Sons of Horus were going crazy so the CHaos dex can be played. So I just wanna say I did it to but I wont go for one of the other two dexes cause it just does not fit a Chaos army.

I mean what kind of excuse you wanna make up for having ATSKNF in a Chaos army???

 

Anyway cant blame people for wanting to play with new toys and making up fluff/excuses to represent there Chaos army with a Loyalist dex.

[Legatus]

BA pays 20 pts a dude for death company. I get the same model for 17 points, except mine can shoot AND beat up in melee

No you don't, you really don't. :)

 

 

Blood Angels are definitely more Chaos than any codex I can think of right now... including Chaos.

Please elaborate on how exactly you think the Codex Blood Angels is more Chaos than the Codex Chaos. Cult units, Daemons and traditional Chaos wargear has been mentioned. Of course I can see the "Berserker" equivalent unit, but what about the other ones? Are you proposing that upgradinga unit with temporary 'Feel no Pain' is an adequate representation of Plague Marines or Thousand Sons? What about Noise Marines? And how are you going to justify ATSKNF? Please no "Chaos Marines should have it" talk, that special rule is a defining difference between loyalists and traitor Marines and has been ever since 2nd Edition (where there was a different rule in place of the later ATSKNF).

[Warp space]

my only creep complaint is in the Heavy support area. Ok loyalist Landraiders are 30pts more BUT OOH Soo much better. the vindicator wich i really hate being a chaos tank(should have gotten a new viechle with Dem cannon, but different topic) we get the dozer blade wich is a LAME version of the siege shield. The predator with heavy bolter side sponsons is a 15pt differance in the loyalists favor.

Ok none of these things make us instantly weaker than every one else it's just they bother me a bit. Biggest problem with chaos current dex is not creep its lack of MARKS!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate standards we aint playing fantasy.

[Prot]

Please elaborate on how exactly you think the Codex Blood Angels is more Chaos than the Codex Chaos. Cult units, Daemons and traditional Chaos wargear has been mentioned. Of course I can see the "Berserker" equivalent unit, but what about the other ones?

 

First off, being the internets, let me clear this up. I'm really just having fun with the idea. To me the Blood Angels (in practice) seem extremely close to 'heretic'.

 

Their practices, their blood drinking, raging, and is it Astrorath the Grim who pops heads off of the dudes that get too unruly? Wow... just wow. I can't believe Imp Fists, or Ultra (or insert Codex Astartes here) aren't hunting these guys down.

 

I say they are more 'chaosy' than chaos as a joke mainly although they have some attributes that make khorne look tame. These guys have serious geneseed issues, and in some cases are literally uncontrollable on the battlefield.... how have the =I= overlooked this?

 

All I can fathom is that they are simply too powerful, and provide 'results' for the imperium. Otherwise, I think if 'dad' were still around, he'd have serious issue with the way these guys are turning out. :)

[Legatus]

It can be difficult to ascertain whether such a statement is meant as a joke, as the suggestion to use a different Codex for Night Lords or Alpha Legion is popping up now and then.

 

I guess GW (or was it Matt Ward?) went a bit over the top with the new Codex Blood Angels. Not just rules wise, it seems. I have yet to read the new fluff, but I am not even sure I want to. I feel like starting with the current Codex Space Marines the Marine Codices keep getting worse. The last one I liked was the Codex Dark Angels.

[the jeske]

your missing awesome stuff legatus Dante fights a force of necrons tomb lord and no side can win , when a splinter ship of a tyranid hive fleet arrives[doesnt matter that both the necron and tyranid stuff always said that the nids try to avoid necron tomb worlds]. Dante and the necrons stop fighting beat the nids and after the fight both forces are to exhausted[doesnt matter that necrons are on their tomb world , so repair everything asap] and withdraw without fighing.

[Lexington]

I guess GW (or was it Matt Ward?) went a bit over the top with the new Codex Blood Angels.

To be fair to Mr. Ward, this is the way of all 5th Edition Codexes. The Space Wolf book didn't have the kinds of 'fluff heresies' that get the fanboys foaming, but it was pretty terrible none the less: chest-puffery as writing form, ridiculous characterization ('This Wolf Lord like loud things, so his Great Company uses a lot of tanks!'), with a sophomoric tone throughout. Codex: Imperial Guard is one long 'ha ha, Guardsmen die in droves!' joke. This is just GW's house style for 5th Edition. Given how worthless the rules and background have become, I'm not sure why anyone with taste even buys Codexes anymore.