Emperor's Children, how insane are they?

[Gree]

I recently got Farseer today, and while reading it I noted Zhagan Ironfist seemed quite….rational. I then thought about the Index Astartes and Fulgrim about the behavior of Slaaneshi warriors.

 

How much do the Emperor’s Children retain in terms of command abilities? Zhagan Ironfist seemed quite rational for a Slaanesh worshipper. Maldagor from Eisenhorn seemed more angry than truly insane. Fulgrim himself was capable of rational tactics even after he went traitor.

 

And then we have Juilius Kaesoron who is reduced to a screaming lunatic at the end of Fulgrim. Marius too is little more than a insane Noise Marine.

 

How rational are they? Are they rational enough to use effective battlefield tactics, repair their armor and weaponry, recruit new Astartes and plan strategically? Otherwise I really can't see how they can sustain themselves as an effective fighing force for any length of time.

[Octavulg]

The World Eaters retain enough sense to think Khârn is crazy.

 

I suspect the insanity of Chaos Marines is somewhat exaggerated.

[valanus]

Say what you like about the Emperor's Children but you've got to be tough to run around the 40k universe wearing pink. I don't care if it's power armour or not, it's still pink....

[minigun762]

This is something I've thought about before and my own personal opinion is that

 

It depends

 

I think some Marines, in particular the straight up Noise Marines, are totally bonkers and probably behave more like animals, acting on instinct and impluse over anything else. Thats not to say they're useless since a Marine of any type has alot of ingrained training and indoctorination.

 

Other Marines will be influenced by the demands of Slaanesh and their own desires but they can keep it in check and understand that there exists more then the immediate sensation or feeling. Remember that the IA article ends with the statement that EC warbands are rare and I take this to mean that there is a lack of leadership to gather the various bands together, but all you need is one dedicated and focused Marine to rise up.

[Trilobiteer]

I would like to point out the No Mercy, No Forgiveness story in the Chaos Codex as a reference point for my argument. In that the chaos force set up an effective ambush with military precision and the characters all seem to follow all the tactics of normal marines (with certain chaotic changes of course eg the defiler and sonic weaponry) as ingrained into them from millenia ago but at the same time hold an insatiable lust for combat and of course intense hatred for their imperial counterparts.

 

The Noise Marines here are noted as taking up a position, is that not a tactical move that would insinuate an active military mind? Also note how the main character has created his own technique of how to kill a marine quickly and efficiently, wouldn't a mindless chaos marine simply hack and hack and hack until they or their enemy was dead?

 

So I think the thing here is that yes Chaos Space Marines are insane, it comes with the job, but they are insane without losing their military minds or ability to think logically. I agree with Octavolg - the World Eaters have repetitively been said to be the most insane chaos legion but according to their story even they can carry out battlefield tactics, etc. So if a lobotomised Berzerker can surely so can a pleasure-fueled Noise Marine, at least in my books.

[Chimerical]

It probably not only varies among different marines, but it wouldn't necessarily be static for each individual marine either - sometimes they could be rational, at others, less so.

 

I imagine they make elaborate, intricate battle plans pre-battle, and then get off on both it's successful execution and the joy of slaughtering stuff at the same time. Berzerkers they are not. They want to maximise pleasure, and achieving that requires a rational thought process. One consideration for that would probably be: Don't get killed for being over-reckless.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Chimerical

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I think they're normally pretty rational (although barbaric/hedonistic etc.), but slowly become more unthinking and brutal as the battle progresses. It is a bit of a high for them, after all. Julius would be fairly rational when walking around and drinking a cup of heretical tea, but when he's been in combat for an hour or two, such as he was when he fought Gabriel Santar, he's totally trippin'.

[Draeden]

I like to think of it that when out of battle, they are just bored... completely and utterly bored due to a lack of any real stimulation. Impassive even. Then when they enter battle, or some other situation that can tickle their senses, they throw themselves into it as loudly as possible to make the stimulation last as long as possible. Completely rational, just loud and devoted to stimulation when they can feel something.

[Guest Cate]

I do think that they are fairly sane most of the time, but when stimulants like the sound of battle hits them they go more and more insane. For example I am a fairly stable person, in a normal state of mind I wouldn't consider to jump of a stage into a bunch of people and body surf, but on certain occasions like a very good consert my adrenaline gets pumped up and I do stage dive and body surf. The conserts stimuli, sounds, smells, sights and the closeness to hundred or thousands of people make do stuff that I wouldn't consider to do.

Multiply this thousandfold and you may grasp how the insanity hits the Emperors Children after a while in a battle. A fight with maybe 10 guards against let say 10 Slaanesh marines wouldn't make them to act insanely, but a battle against an equal number of loyal marines would make them go bonkers, add combat drugs into the equation and you have a psycopatic combat monster jacked up on drugs, adrenaline, religious zeal, hatred for his enemy and also wants to experience a near death situation. This person is completly insane who is probably close to berserking and dosen't feel either pain or fear.

 

During their celebrations after a battle I wouldn't think they act logical or sanely, but now the stimuli is drugs, food, deprevade acts, so far from our imagination that we would just go insane seeing the celebration. If you have read, and I mean read, American Psycho by Brett Easton Ellis, you might understand how the Slaanesh followers state of mind, but still function normally, Sometimes the mind tip the scale and they go inte that strange and disturbing mental state that Slaanesh wants them to do and they also long for.

 

That is how how I imagine Slaanesh worshippers.

 

Loyal Space Marines are fairly insane compared to todays standards, as they also are Psycopathic combat monsters, created just for one reason, to kill in the Emperors name. The BL books can't go to far into the state of mind of the marine characters as it probably would get to disturbing for the normal reader. We also have to get a feeling of sympathy for the characters, otehrwise the books wouldn't sell esp.well to a younger crowd.

 

/Cate

Edited April 15, 2010 by Cate

[minigun762]

After reading the Cate's and Draeden's remarks I have to say that I believe they hit the nail on the head.

 

EC Marines are bored, insane but functional individuals most of the time who turn into raving lunatic slaughterfiend bent on sensation and feeling once a true battle is upon them.

[Spaakl Daakli]

I think that if you do any sort of research about Lord Byron, you'll have a RL precedent for the EC's right there!

 

Basically "mad, bad, and dangerous to know"!

[jeremy1391]

Im a firm believer that once a slanesh marine has gone "full noise marine" he is basically a junky looking for that next high, and will do anything for that next high.

 

I also believe that a lord of excess is basically seen as a "drug dealer" to his wayward comrades so he in essence has total control over them, because he holds the keys to finding huge battles and transporting his troops to said locations and probably also controls the flow of combat drugs, he also holds favor with his patron also giving him power over his subordinates.

[Rain]

I think that if you do any sort of research about Lord Byron, you'll have a RL precedent for the EC's right there!

 

Basically "mad, bad, and dangerous to know"!

 

Actually I think Marquis De Sade is more fitting. Some of the scenarios in 120 Days of Sodom are "interesting" to say the least. Also Oscar Wilde was obviously an influence on McNiell when he wrote Fulgrim, which is kind of a shame because Wilde was brilliant and Fulgrim was garbage.

 

As for the topic, I think it depends on what kind of crazy you mean. I doubt that noise marines are the "blargh me kill" kind of crazy, but at a certain point in battle they would probably lose all conscious control and just begin acting completely on instinct. Overall I would imagine that they still attempt to fight in a fairly rational manner as they are probably quite proud of their martial skills and would want to show the enemy how impotent their resistance is instead of just making sure blood is spilled as is the case with berzerkers.

 

Honestly I think that 'zerks are really the only "crazy" chaos marines, all of the others just enjoy killing people or taking revenge on the Imperium, but that doesn't make them crazy, it just makes them sadistic or bitter.

[Guest Cate]

Even the zerkers can't be "insane" all the time, otherwise they have to be locked up in small cells 24/7 when they move between battlegrounds. Even they have "calmer" periods otherwise there would be only a very few left, "skulls for the skull god" no matter what, isn't vialble. All the Chaos marines are insane to our standards, but they all have times when they work more normally, like in transit between planets. All the cultist marines are insaner then the bitter and sadistic normal marines, they all have the goal to do whatever their deity wants, but the ruinios powers all know that they need their tools and don't throw them away on pointless things, a Khorne berzerker would without doubt kill hundreds of people if he was warped down on terra, but what would be the point, hundreds more skulls on the throne plus one dead exceptional warrior dead, but thats all. Khorne is smarter than that, he bids his time gather up more warriors and aims for terra with the help of Abbey and the other more "saner warlords.

 

My point is that a flaggelanting Noise marine, foam throtting Khorne Berzeker, devious Tzeentchian warlock, or a puss riden nurgle cultist are all very scary and in our point of view extremly insane, but they have all down time for planning, moving about, making deals with each other and sceaming against the Imperium and each other, otherwise they would already be extinct. Chaos wouldn't be a problem for the Imperium and it would now start to take care with the other major problems.

 

There are individiuals who are completly bonkers, like Khârn and Lucious, but those are few.

 

Cate

[Ethrion]

Even the zerkers can't be "insane" all the time, otherwise they have to be locked up in small cells 24/7 when they move between battlegrounds. Even they have "calmer" periods otherwise there would be only a very few left, "skulls for the skull god" no matter what, isn't vialble. All the Chaos marines are insane to our standards, but they all have times when they work more normally, like in transit between planets. All the cultist marines are insaner then the bitter and sadistic normal marines, they all have the goal to do whatever their deity wants, but the ruinios powers all know that they need their tools and don't throw them away on pointless things, a Khorne berzerker would without doubt kill hundreds of people if he was warped down on terra, but what would be the point, hundreds more skulls on the throne plus one dead exceptional warrior dead, but thats all. Khorne is smarter than that, he bids his time gather up more warriors and aims for terra with the help of Abbey and the other more "saner warlords.

 

My point is that a flaggelanting Noise marine, foam throtting Khorne Berzeker, devious Tzeentchian warlock, or a puss riden nurgle cultist are all very scary and in our point of view extremly insane, but they have all down time for planning, moving about, making deals with each other and sceaming against the Imperium and each other, otherwise they would already be extinct. Chaos wouldn't be a problem for the Imperium and it would now start to take care with the other major problems.

 

There are individiuals who are completly bonkers, like Khârn and Lucius, but those are few.

 

Cate

 

I liked and agree with your earlier description of how insane a noise marine actually is. Even Lucius I reckon is "sane" during down time - plotting, planning etc. But like you said when he gets into combat he goes nuts. Though against lesser enemies like the fluff says he is bored and lacks interest. He only gets pumped when he finds a worthy opponent. (4th ed. CSM codex rules represented Lucius' attitude a lot better IMO).

 

p.s. My Emperor's Children warband led by Lucius with his squad of aspiring swordsmen (and doom sirens everywhere) is utterly rockin' at the moment.

[Guest Cate]

Yeah the 4th edition Lucius is a good example of the "bored" Slaanesh marine. I have tried to think of charcaters who are chaotic and insane both fictional and real ones and tried to see if I can imagin what ruinous power they are close to. This is just for fun.

 

Lets start with with the standard insane megalomaniac genocide dictators, Hitler, Idi Amin, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, all of them seem to be close to Tzeentch, none or few of them where even present when the actual killing happened, they where all after more power and rumours have it that Hitler was dabbling in the overnatural. I would say these fellows where completly bonkers.

Pope Boniface VIII was a borderline Tzeentch worshipper, he saw himself as stand in for Christ, which is and was really a no no, that plan backfired as he was kidnapped by the french who didn't want the pope have more power. Not a sane choice, but for a Tzeentch worshipper with an itch it might have seemed sane.

 

Then we have the more famous serial killers, Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer, Johan Wayne Gacey, Ottis Toole, all these men would be Slaanesh worshippers, their crimes are sexually orientented and several of them where cannibals. These crimes is what we think of when we speak of the scary and insane stalker mass murderer. Other famous ones in this category are the BTK killer, Jack the ripper and we could even put Elizabeth Bathory here.

 

Another scary man is Charles Manson, megalomaniac and manipulator, a Tzeentch worshipper in my eyes, he made his "family" do the murders.

 

Do we have any famous Khorne worshippers in history you might ask, the only one I can think of is Vlad Tepes, according to legend he and his army impaled around 20 000 Osmanian soldiers and he used som cruel punish on the ones who defied him, This was a more hands on type of leader, but if he was insane is hard to say as he was active during the 15th century and most rulers where cruel and hands on.

I could say that Torquemada was an insane Khorne worshipper, but if he was insane or just filled with religious zeal is hard to say, what is known is that he was very active in the Spanish Inqusition and he wrote the inquistitorial instructions. He also threw 30 silver coins on queen Isabella when he found out that she had sponsored Colombus trip to the new world, something I wouldn't do, as the monarchy in Spain could have easily get rid of a Domonican Monk.

 

Fictional characters are either based on real persons, most serial killers are just copies of the standard sexual serial killer, Hannibal Lecter, Patrik Bateman, Norman Bates, or just plain killing machines, Leatherface, Michael Myers, John Rambo, the sexual serial killers are more or less Slaanesh cultists and the killing machines are Khorne worshippers. Easy right?

 

Do we have any Chaos Individed charcters? One I can think of is Heath Ledgers Joker from the Dark Knight, and in that movie we have a Nurgle worshipper in the Scarecrow.

 

This is how you can get some inspiration how insane Chaos Marines are, but they are probably even more insane than these persons an charcters.

 

The bitter CSM I would think are the ones who haven't fallen to any of the powers yet, and the definition of sadistic is in the eye of the beholder. The Marines, Commissars Inquisitors who still follow the corpse-god can be sadistic to but when they start to like to be sadsitic they are closer to join us with she who never thirst. Cruelty and sadism might also seem insane.

 

ps. I should never have switched over to the CSM renegade list, I do want the sonics on my dreads and bikes. :cuss

[Ethrion]

I'm just waiting for when they release a Chaos: Legions codex! Until then me and my mate battle against each other using the 4th ed. Chaos codex because it is way more fluff driven and fun. You can do awesome Emperor's Children lists AND actually get benefits for taking squads in sixes.

 

Plus the wargear section is just pure awesomeness unlike the pitiful selection you get now.

[Rain]

The bitter CSM I would think are the ones who haven't fallen to any of the powers yet, and the definition of sadistic is in the eye of the beholder. The Marines, Commissars Inquisitors who still follow the corpse-god can be sadistic to but when they start to like to be sadsitic they are closer to join us with she who never thirst. Cruelty and sadism might also seem insane.

 

ps. I should never have switched over to the CSM renegade list, I do want the sonics on my dreads and bikes. :P

 

Well, sadism is generally seen as pleasure derived from the infliction of pain. Most Imperial Marines, Inquisitors et al probably kill out of some sense of duty and while they may take pride in killing the enemies of the Emperor I think that there is a difference between that and a feeling of pleasure from the infliction of pain and suffering. Chaos on the other hand I think tends to enjoy the very act of the infliction of pain onto Imperials without any sense of duty or "doing the right thing" behind it, it's just killing and torture for its own sake.

 

As for undivided marines being the bitter ones, that's partially true, but this also depends on what fluff you rely on. Not much definitive non-BL fluff has been published on the mindsets of Chaos marines so it's anyone's guess really, but in my opinion even some cult marines are bitter. The Death Guard Index Astartes for example specifically states that they are self loathing and hate their new forms and want everything else to rot as well so that they can appear less disgusting by comparison. The Emperor's Children are described as jaded and have certainly by now lost all that once made them the preeminent champions of the Imperium, a fall that would probably bring with it a kind of bitterness borne of the denial that their betrayal has debased them.

[Ethrion]

The bitter CSM I would think are the ones who haven't fallen to any of the powers yet, and the definition of sadistic is in the eye of the beholder. The Marines, Commissars Inquisitors who still follow the corpse-god can be sadistic to but when they start to like to be sadsitic they are closer to join us with she who never thirst. Cruelty and sadism might also seem insane.

 

ps. I should never have switched over to the CSM renegade list, I do want the sonics on my dreads and bikes. <_<

 

Well, sadism is generally seen as pleasure derived from the infliction of pain. Most Imperial Marines, Inquisitors et al probably kill out of some sense of duty and while they may take pride in killing the enemies of the Emperor I think that there is a difference between that and a feeling of pleasure from the infliction of pain and suffering. Chaos on the other hand I think tends to enjoy the very act of the infliction of pain onto Imperials without any sense of duty or "doing the right thing" behind it, it's just killing and torture for its own sake.

 

As for undivided marines being the bitter ones, that's partially true, but this also depends on what fluff you rely on. Not much definitive non-BL fluff has been published on the mindsets of Chaos marines so it's anyone's guess really, but in my opinion even some cult marines are bitter. The Death Guard Index Astartes for example specifically states that they are self loathing and hate their new forms and want everything else to rot as well so that they can appear less disgusting by comparison. The Emperor's Children are described as jaded and have certainly by now lost all that once made them the preeminent champions of the Imperium, a fall that would probably bring with it a kind of bitterness borne of the denial that their betrayal has debased them.

 

I forget where I read it exactly, might have been in 'Heroes of the Space Marines' but there is a short story written from the perspective of a squad of Black Legion marines. The way the author described the sergeant of the squads feelings was really good IMO.

 

He basically said that although they had been fighting for 10,000 years the heresy and events of those times seemed like only yesterday for them and yet at the same time an eternity. Also he despised the mutation 'gift' bestowed on one of his squad mates because basically it was no longer the battle-brother that he had known.

 

The plot revolved around a never ending hunt that this Black Legion sergeant was forced to go on - long story short during the Great Crusade he had been best buddies with an Imperial Fist, yet of course, during the siege of Terra he fought against him. For one reason or another the chaos sergeant was forced to hunt down and kill the current Imperial Fist marine who carried the same gene-seed of that original marine. Something about at the time of the original duel he had said "I'll kill you a 1000 times if necessary" and the Chaos Gods held him to his oath and yet after he had killed the guy for the 1000th time the chaos gods laughed and said "you really think we would let you free from your debt so easily?".

 

I'm not doing a very good job explaining it all that well but the upshot was that this chaos marine felt utterly drained, totally betrayed and tired of the unending crusade against the Imperium. At one point he mentions that at the time they thought they were doing the right thing but now they knew that they had been tricked and fooled and he just wanted it to stop but was forced to repeat the cycle.

 

Either way all of that would probably drive you slightly insane even if you weren't already! ;)

[Rain]

The plot revolved around a never ending hunt that this Black Legion sergeant was forced to go on - long story short during the Great Crusade he had been best buddies with an Imperial Fist, yet of course, during the siege of Terra he fought against him. For one reason or another the chaos sergeant was forced to hunt down and kill the current Imperial Fist marine who carried the same gene-seed of that original marine. Something about at the time of the original duel he had said "I'll kill you a 1000 times if necessary" and the Chaos Gods held him to his oath and yet after he had killed the guy for the 1000th time the chaos gods laughed and said "you really think we would let you free from your debt so easily?".

 

I'm not doing a very good job explaining it all that well but the upshot was that this chaos marine felt utterly drained, totally betrayed and tired of the unending crusade against the Imperium. At one point he mentions that at the time they thought they were doing the right thing but now they knew that they had been tricked and fooled and he just wanted it to stop but was forced to repeat the cycle.

 

Either way all of that would probably drive you slightly insane even if you weren't already! :lol:

 

Yeah the Imperial Fist was dying and called Horus a fool and a traitor and Scaevolla swore to kill him 1,000 times for the insult. Oh and that Captain he killed was only the 501 kill he made, he just wanted it to be over already so he tried to die, but I guess that wasn't in the cards for him. Actually I think that short story was some of the best 40k fiction I have ever read, it should have been an entire novel, there was certainly enough material to work with.

 

Actually this was basically what I was getting at, he isn't really a nice guy, but deep down he understands what he has become, and is more doing what he does because it's all that he can do rather than it being what he wants to do.

[Captain Tezdal]

I would also like to point out, not all EC are Noise Marines, so seems like you would have more "sane" members also, lords etc... seem like not quite as crazy either, more a dedication to satisfying desires,

[randian]

I also believe that a lord of excess is basically seen as a "drug dealer" to his wayward comrades so he in essence has total control over them

At least a drug dealer delivers the promised high. Slannesh tempts with promises of ecstasy, and then steals all of it from you. The more you seek after Slannesh's promises the more hollow they become, until you are an empty husk driven insane from the unfeeling emptiness of your life.

[Walter Payton]

I also believe that a lord of excess is basically seen as a "drug dealer" to his wayward comrades so he in essence has total control over them

At least a drug dealer delivers the promised high. Slannesh tempts with promises of ecstasy, and then steals all of it from you. The more you seek after Slannesh's promises the more hollow they become, until you are an empty husk driven insane from the unfeeling emptiness of your life.

 

And so you turn to the one thing you haven't done...