Wolf Companies...

[Loki73]

I would like to make a Marine company. Seeing as the wolves threw the codex astartes in the trash how are the Great Companies formed? What do they typically contain? Thanks!

[JEFF4i]

They didn't "throw it in the trash." It's just unclear how much they conform.

 

That said, there are 12 Great Companies not including the 13th. Some estimates are at a little over 100 per Great Company, some estimates are higher.

 

Though, to be fair, using the Space Wolves codex is far more appropriate for making a Space Wolves army, given some of our...specialties. :)

[Ullr Direfang]

this has been discussed before and you really don't know the size of the can of worms you just reopened.

 

but there is no solid number, the constant induction of BCs would change the number. you will get numbers between 120 to 150 as what most people say is the average number, but there are some who think higher and some who think lower.

[Silverwolf]

haha... oh if only I could be bothered finding the old threads on great Company numbers :P.

 

I have to ask Loki, do you mean you want to make a great company using standard astartes marines, instead of the Space Wolf codex? If thats what you mean, the question that begs is why? :huh:

 

And we never threw the Astartes Codex into the trash, because we refused to use it in the first place (And had no small number of problems from the Inquisition and other Marine Chapters because of it).

 

We DID lower our numbers... officially... there are many that believe we truely did, and others like myself that argue otherwise :D. Aside from lowering our total numbers, our general makeup and composition has not really changed since Pre-Heresy. Our chapter make-up however differs heavily from a standard astartes chapter, with pretty much the only similarity being a form of "1st Company" (Our Dreadnoughts, Scouts, all our Priests, and most of the Wolf Guard).

[Uncooked]

I'm too new to have seen those older threads on this forum, but I have wondered this question before.

 

In Codex: Space Wolves, page17, Under the heading Ragnar Blackmane 'boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors' which also says that it is second only in size to Logan's company.

 

This is the only piece of evidence that i can find of the size of a great company.

 

200 - battle hardened warriors (grey hunters, long fangs, wolf guard)

30-40 - initiates (bloodclaws, swiftclaws and skyclaws)

 

Wolf Priests, Rune Priests, and Iron Priests are only mentioned to be under the supervision of Logan, but are not numbered.

 

I don't know much of the fluff but I don't believe the structure of the Space wolves hasn't changed since the Heresy and back then legions were accountable for thousands of marines.

 

If I took a stab at it I would say a Legion is anywhere between 150-200 including the bloodclaws and supporting Priests.

[Silverwolf]

lol, and so it begins again... can someone take the time to track down the old threads and post the links? ;) I'm at work at the moment and can't be bothered ;)

 

edit: gah, I acctually just tried and couldn't find them. We really should of stickied the huge one from a few years back.

[OnlyInDeath]

::prays that this thread dies::

 

Going down this road will do no good. For the love of Russ, drop it.

 

The only thing that you need to know about the number of Wolves in the galaxy is there's "enough".

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

Ragnar and Logan have the largest great companies with ragnar boasting almost 200 warriors in his great company alone.

 

So we come to a cross roads. Only one Great Company is over 200 that being Logan's, Ragnar's is almost 200 and everyone follows beneath that.

 

And yes we did throw the codex astartes in the trash. We dont use it, we just split the legion in half to keep from civil war.

 

Also remember in the old codex there was mention of the other wolf chapters that do not hold loyalty to the current Great Wolf but are still loyal to the Imperium.

[Silverwolf]

Also remember in the old codex there was mention of the other wolf chapters that do not hold loyalty to the current Great Wolf but are still loyal to the Imperium.

 

Now that I have never heard mention of before... or read it anywhere.

 

* Glances sheepishly at OID *

 

I'm trying not to OID... really... <_<

[Vash113]

Alright gather round.

 

I would like to make a Marine company. Seeing as the wolves threw the codex astartes in the trash how are the Great Companies formed? What do they typically contain? Thanks!

 

There are 12 Great Companies not counting the lost 13th Great Company. There is absolutely no standard on how a Great Company is composed, how they fight or even how they are composed. However Grey Hunters will usually form the backbone of a Great Company and will be the most numerous. Blood Claws will all told number less than the Grey Hunters and there will be less Long Fangs than Blood Claws. Wolf Guard will be formed from the most venerable and skilled Long Fangs and Grey Hunters. Wolf Scouts are formed from the most "Lone Wolf" type Space Wolves and will likely be the least in number in a Great Company. However some Great Companies like Ragnar's have quite a few more Blood Claws while Logans likely has a lot more Wolf Guard and Erik Morkai favors his scouts. Each Great Company will be composed and will fight in a manner following the example and personality of the Wolf Lord leading the Company. In this way no two Space Wolf Great Companies will ever really be exactly the same and at any one time it is unlikely that any two Great Companies even fight in the same exact manner or favor the same tactics.

 

Space Wolf Great Companies total numbers have always been fluid and impossible to pin down, for years the best estimates put a Great Company anywhere in size from 100-250 Space Marines. This number is somewhat confirmed by the statement about Ragnar's Great Company's size in the 5th Edition Codex.

 

In short, a Great Company is really whatever you want it to be. Mine is composed of 60 Grey Hunters, 35 Blood Claws, 20 Wolf Guard, 5 Long Fangs and 5 Wolf Scouts, along with HQs and 10 Fenresian Wolves the army comes out to around 130 in total, 120 odd Marines and I figure that's about the full size of my Great Company and won't likely increase its numbers much more. You could of course go as high as 200 or so if you felt like it or have as few as 70-100 if the Great Company is especially small, its up to you. Likewise the vehicles and tactics the Great Company uses are also entirely up to you, whether you want to favor infantry or tanks, drop pods or Fenresian Wolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry, whether you want to max out on Vindicators, Whirlwinds and Long Fangs or you wish to have a ton of Blood Claws pouring across the field. Each Great Company can be whatever you want it to be. There are no set structures or numbers.

 

They didn't "throw it in the trash." It's just unclear how much they conform.

 

Actually no, we did throw it in the trash, then we poured lighter fluid in the trashcan and lit it on fire. :)

 

Ok to be fair thats not entirely true, however the Space Wolves never accepted nor adhered to the Codex in any way what so ever. The only concession Russ ever made to Guilliman and his Codex was splitting off the ill-fated Wolf Brothers and after that fiasco no further attempt was made to force the Codex and its strictures on Russ and his Wolves. While Rogal Dorn and other Primarchs were unwilling to risk war to resist the Codex, the Space Wolves have the Fang, the mightiest fortress outside of Terra, second only to the Emperor's Palace and assaulting the Wolves in their fastness would be the height of foolishness. Simply put the Space Wolves pay absolutely no attention to the Codex what so ever and never have, the Chapter is organised no differently now than it was during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, its just not as big.

 

200 - battle hardened warriors (grey hunters, long fangs, wolf guard)

30-40 - initiates (bloodclaws, swiftclaws and skyclaws)

 

All Space Wolves are technically "battle-hardened" and I'd count Blood Claws in with that as well. All Blood Claws go through extensive training and according to the Space Wolf books at least a few combat missions before being accepted into a Great Company and all Space Wolf recruits have seen battle and many didn't survive to tell the tale, or wouldn't have if the Space Wolves hadn't chosen them for training as initiates. So I'd say the under 200 count includes all Blood Claws and attendant Priests and officers, with Logans company probably numbering around 250 or less. On average I'd say a Great Company probably numbers around 150 Space Marines. Some Companies being smaller, others larger.

 

Also remember in the old codex there was mention of the other wolf chapters that do not hold loyalty to the current Great Wolf but are still loyal to the Imperium.

 

Great Companies, not Chapters but yes, Wolf Lords swear an oath of binding loyalty to the Emperor and Leman Russ, but not to the Great Wolf in particular. This means that should a Wolf Lord greatly disagree with the appointment or the orders of a Great Wolf they can essentially pack up their warriors and leave to go do things in their own way, while other Wolf Lords have found themselves too far away to bother going back and just wander around on their own initiative killing the enemies of the Emperor and still others get lost in the warp for one reason or another and should they survive (unlikely) may wind up unable to return and so operate independantly and still others just plain turn traitor (but not commonly).

 

These are collectively referred to as the Lost Companies, and organisationally are all held collectively alongside the lost 13th Great Company represented by the blank black stone on the Grand Annulus.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

aye companies not chapters my bad

[Silverwolf]

The Oracle has spoken ;) :P

 

Space Wolf Great Companies total numbers have always been fluid and impossible to pin down, for years the best estimates put a Great Company anywhere in size from 100-250 Space Marines. This number is somewhat confirmed by the statement about Ragnar's Great Company's size in the 5th Edition Codex.

 

My opinion on that always comes back to the comments about a single Great Company maintaining it's own fleet of warships. Lets just say that the Inquistorial estimates of our numbers are 100-250 and leave it at that. ;)

[Vash113]

The Oracle has spoken ;) :P

 

:huh:

 

My opinion on that always comes back to the comments about a single Great Company maintaining it's own fleet of warships. Lets just say that the Inquistorial estimates of our numbers are 100-250 and leave it at that. :P

 

Well yes, all Space Marine companies should really be at the command of a small fleet, the Great Ships, Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges are just the capitol ships of a Space Marine fleet, each Chapter should also maintain a number of escort and patrol craft that accompany each of the capitol ships. Imperial Navy Battleships don't travel around alone and according to a good bit of fluff neither do Space Marine vessels.

 

Its also possible that even an average Great Company may not be able to fit its entire complement of marines and material on a single vessel, a Strike Cruiser can only carry about 100 Marines and that would only be able to transport about 2/3 of an average Great Companies marines. Logan Grimnar and some Wolf Lords may have Great Ships large enough to transport 200+ Marines but some undoubtedly have to do with multiple ships.

 

When you add in escorts an average Space Wolf strike fleet probably includes between 1-3 squadrons of 3 escorts and 1-2 Strike Cruiser equivalent craft, so between 4 and 11 vessels. Some of the later descriptions of Space Wolf fleets support escorts accompanying the Great Ships.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

dont forget the space wolves keep what you kill policy. A successful wolf lord could capture a rather large fleet of ships. After giving out a few as choice gifts to the Great Wolf and others he could have a rather prodigious fleet that he would have to arm and crew. while on the other hand a wolf lord with a run of bad luck could be down to one last ship

[Loki73]

No not making a standard co out of normal marines lol. Thanks for the responses. between the Index Astartes book and the a few of the codeci. They indicate fluidity of more than structure. Guess this gives me some freedom!

[Vash113]

dont forget the space wolves keep what you kill policy. A successful wolf lord could capture a rather large fleet of ships. After giving out a few as choice gifts to the Great Wolf and others he could have a rather prodigious fleet that he would have to arm and crew. while on the other hand a wolf lord with a run of bad luck could be down to one last ship

 

Well I wouldn't say its that extreme, the Great Ships and the Space Wolf Fleet are maintained as part of the Chapter as a whole, a Wolf Lord with more ships than they need would IMO almost certainly turn them over to the Fang to be re-fitted and crewed (a single Wolf Lord wouldn't have the serfs to crew multiple new ships easily and it would be a detriment to all of them) and then they can be put into service patrolling the areas the Space Wolves protect, likewise there are more than 12 Great Ships so that if one is too badly damaged it can be swapped out for another vessel.

 

The majority of battle trophies and captured ships comes into play when a Wolf Lord is out on campaign and their own ship gets too badly damaged so they capture another to replace it, but there's little material to suggest the Space Wolves go overboard in capturing ships for their fleet.

 

The Space Wolf fleet appears to be one thing that isn't split amongst the Wolf Lords independantly or maintained by the Great Companies themselves, each Great Company has their own headquarters and chambers within the Fang with their own workshops and training facilities, but the Fang itself is described as having docks built into its highest reaches to service the Great Ships and the Chapter Fleet seems to be like the Venerable Dreadnaughts, Rune, Wolf and Iron Priests in that the Great Wolf has control over the fleets ships mostly and hands them out as he deems necessary.

[Niiai]

Well they pretty mutch covered the amount of space wolves there are. During the black crusade of abbadon there was the 13th company. Of course there are more 13 companies, not just the oficial. It is a name used for lost companies. And there are some companies that are on a "spirit hunt" or something like that.

 

So there usualy are more spacewolves around then you think.

 

I do not think SW is better then regular, but it certanly plays a whole lott different.

 

If you like tanks or dreads and feel no pain and furius charge I would advice you to look at the BA codex, it has some MEAN things in there. Moats ntably the lucifer engine they put in the tanks.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

the ba codex opens up more lists that i think smurfs does.

 

auroa marines? fast baals and heavy preds with mech infantry

iron hands? a crap load of dreads

blood angels of course

a decent chaos space marines list or two as well.

 

but back on hand.

[Legatus]

Speaking of the Space Wolves fleet, I just came across this bit of information on their fleet in another thread, and due to the conclusions about Space Wolves Great Companies that allows I was thinking about pointing that out in a new thread here. Luckily I used the search thingie first.

 

According to that thread (and I found similar statements in the net, and it may come from the Space Wolves novels), the Space Wolves currently have 15 ships (larger than escort), one for every Great Company and three in reserve. IIRC two of them are battle barge equivalents, so the rest is apparently strike cruiser equivalents. I say "equivalents" because the fleet is said to consist of various different ship types and classes, often salvaged as spoils of war.

If most of them are strike cruiser equivalents, then we can make some conclusions about how big a Great Company is. Usually a Strike Cruiser is designed to carry one regular Space Marine company, though it can probably carry some extra support (from 1st or 10th, for example) as well. And I have no doubt that the Space Wolves have refitted the ships to carry a few more men. For example, the Flesh Tearers have modified their single Battle Barge to carry the whole four companies the Chapter consists of (usually Battle Barges carry three companies). So we have a precedent for a ship with 33% more Marine carrying capacity. I would perhaps even accept 50% more carrying capacity, but anything more than that I would probably start to politely question.

 

However, there are a few points to keep in mind about this bit of information:

 

- It seems to come from a Black Library source, so it is questionable

 

- Even if it was a GW source, the author might not have made the connection between ships and their carrying capacity implications about man power

[HamHamLunchbox]

we know that the sw have over a hundred dreads and that the legion never split up(well,wolf brothers) so every company could have a few thousand marines.very unlikely thou

[Vash113]

According to that thread (and I found similar statements in the net, and it may come from the Space Wolves novels), the Space Wolves currently have 15 ships (larger than escort), one for every Great Company and three in reserve. IIRC two of them are battle barge equivalents, so the rest is apparently strike cruiser equivalents. I say "equivalents" because the fleet is said to consist of various different ship types and classes, often salvaged as spoils of war.

 

The source is well known and is indeed from the Black Library, from the 3rd Space Wolf book Grey Hunter, chapter 2 or 3 if I recall correctly.

 

Two of the ships (The Iron Wolf and The Pride of Fenris) are actually refitted Imperial Navy Battleships, so they should actually be quite a bit bigger than an average Battle Barge in overall size and even more considerable in mass though slower than a well maintained Battle Barge. The others very widely in size but I'd imagine all could hold at least 100 marines, if not quite a few more when needed, and thats not counting how many marines from each Great Company might travel aboard one of the smaller escorts that accompany each Great Ship of the fleet. I'm not sure how many actual Strike Cruisers and/or Battle Barges exist in the Space Wolf fleet, few probably. Most of the ships are probably Imperial Navy Cruisers or Grand Cruisers of one type or another.

[HamHamLunchbox]

thou black library books are not really reliable sources as the books are written by freelancers and take place in an alternate wh40k universe.

[Vash113]

thou black library books are not really reliable sources as the books are written by freelancers and take place in an alternate wh40k universe.

 

Unreliable? Yes. Alternate universe? No. Unfortunately Black Library materials are technically official GW productions. They aren't as canon as Codexies and Rulebooks but nevertheless they can't be completely ignored as much as some of us may want to forget the Soul Drinkers ever existed or pointedly overlook any references to a Blood Angel named Rafen.

 

Particularly where Black Library novels cover things that have never really been focused on in more official GW fluff its either BL or nothing.

[Silverwolf]

Yeh you have to remember people that there is a lot of things that aren't nessicarily gone very heavily into with the Codexies and Rulebooks, and that is where the Black Libarary generally tends to step in and fill the gaps. As with anything "fluff" in the 40k universe, there is always an element of "fluff creep", as authors expand on existing fluff, which tends to slowly alter it over time.

 

Some of you young pups might find yourselves quite surprised if you learnt of some of the original Rogue Trader fluff about Space Wolves ;). Though much of that early fluff is now the realm of the Wolf Priests, and not something to be told lightly to the young pups.

 

Back to one of my earlier comments, someones post above jogged my memory on it a bit, and I recall the passage read something along the lines of "...some great companies require several strike cruisers to transport their forces..." (hardly an exact quote, I'm afraid I've probably washed a lot of the finer points of fluff out of my head with good ale ;)). I'm pretty sure I used a more exact quote in one of our earlier discussions about Great Company numbers a couple of years back. Granted those forces include support crews, vehicles (which take up a fair bit of room), ammo stores, etc, however it still indicates that some of the more recent fluff has downgraded the original estimates of our company numbers to a more acceptable "150-200". My thinking on this still goes back to this being a bit of Space Wolf PR to keep the Inquisitions noses from getting to far out of joint ;).

 

Remember, Pre-heresy Space Wolf numbers would of being Upwards of 10,000. We never took massive losses during the Horus Heresy due to being out of a lot of the heavy fighting near Terra, and even after the split of the ill-fated Wolf Brothers, and assuming the Space Wolves split in half (Which I'm pretty sure I remember reading would be incorrect, as the Wolf Brothers was no more then a token split, so probably not even 2000 marines), we would be looking at upwards of 300/Great Company. Even taking losses, we're constantly renewing our numbers, and my assumption would be that aside from our general lack of tolerance for outside interference, there must be something else we were hiding/protecting so aggressively when the Inquisition tried to forcibly come to Fenris with an Imperial Fleet at their backs.

[Vash113]

Actually we don't have to be protecting anything. After the 1st War for Armageddon Logan Grimnar will take any excuse to fire on Inquisitors and their agents. Grimnar fought tooth and nail to defend Armageddon and its people, ralying refugees and scattered PDF and Guard Regiments to fight off Angron and his Khornate forces. When they had won however the Inquisition gathered all the surviving citizens and soldiers of Armageddon into work/death camps because they did not wish the truth of the battle for Armageddon to become known and lets just say Grimnar was not at all happy about this.

 

Although after the Age of Apostasy fiasco and the 2nd Siege of the Fang the Space Wolves need very little motivation to violently repell any Ecclesiarchal/Inquisitorial agents that come calling to Fenris.