Wolf Companies...

[Silverwolf]

See, I told you the ale had addled my memories Vash ;), I'd forgotten all about those little bits of info.

 

You really do need a "Wolf Priest of the Fang" title or some such brother ;)

[Legatus]

Remember, Pre-heresy Space Wolf numbers would of being Upwards of 10,000. We never took massive losses during the Horus Heresy due to being out of a lot of the heavy fighting near Terra, and even after the split of the ill-fated Wolf Brothers, and assuming the Space Wolves split in half (Which I'm pretty sure I remember reading would be incorrect, as the Wolf Brothers was no more then a token split, so probably not even 2000 marines), we would be looking at upwards of 300/Great Company. Even taking losses, we're constantly renewing our numbers, and my assumption would be that aside from our general lack of tolerance for outside interference, there must be something else we were hiding/protecting so aggressively when the Inquisition tried to forcibly come to Fenris with an Imperial Fleet at their backs.

Point one: According to the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves the Space Wolves were specifically only divided into two Chapters because they had never been a very large Legion. If a standard Legion is 10,000 strong, then "not very Large" could be around 6,000. Take 50% or so from the battle against the Thousand Sons and the scouring (IIRC the Wolves even went deep into the Eye of Terror) and you arrive at a number where it seems plausible that they had enough left for two Chapters, with perhaps a little extra to keep for the Founding Chapter itself.

 

Point due: The point of the Codex Astartes was not to "split the Legions in half" or "divide them by three" or anything like that. The goal was to divide them specifically into roughly 1000 strong fractions. Dividing a hypothetically almost full Legion (though see point one) in half would not really have accomplished much in terms of those goals.

 

C: I remember reading about an Ecclesiarchy fleet that is fired upon by the Space Wolves, and they later return with Sisters of Battle and wage a bit of war against the Space Wolves. You would not happen to mean them with the anecdote you refered to? If you did, they had nothing to do with the Inquisition. They are ecclesiarchy, coing to Fenris to bring the word of the holy God Emperor to the savages. Only the Wolves (much like all Space Marines) do not care much for the Imperial Cult of the God Emperor. He is their father and the greatest warrior mankind has ever had, not an abstract god concept to be prayed to every evening and before meals.

IIRC there was an Inquisitor the Space Wolves were on quite good terms with in the Ragnar Novels. Not that I would cite Black Library material as proof of anything.

[Silverwolf]

Legatus, The Space Wolves never split the way all the other Chapters did, the only Chapter that was created from the Space Wolves was the Wolf Brothers, which were destroyed not long after. Due to instability in the Canis Helix or whatever the cause, successor chapters built from Space Wolf gene seed cannot work.

 

I don't have either our old dex or the new one in front of me, but the new one at least specifically mentions an Inquisitor grabbing an Imperial fleet to try and force his way through a Space Wolf blockade of Fenris. He was trying to gather some information or another on the Space Wolves and the Space Wolves decided they weren't to impressed with that idea.

 

And for the record, the Ecclesiarchy is an arm of the Inquisition. The Inquisition basically has 3 divisions, Deamon Hunters, Witch Hunters, and Xenos Hunters. Being the Grey Knights, the Sisters of Battle, and the Death Watch. But all are run/lead by Inquisitor Lords of one sought or another.

[Legatus]

Legatus, The Space Wolves never split the way all the other Chapters did, the only Chapter that was created from the Space Wolves was the Wolf Brothers, which were destroyed not long after. Due to instability in the Canis Helix or whatever the cause, successor chapters built from Space Wolf gene seed cannot work.

Reading only the 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, one might get that impression. The text in that Codex makes the whole affair sound much more ambiguous than earlier sources did. My problem is that I know those earlier sources, so I find it difficult to disregard their statements about the Space Wolves dividing into two Chapters due to their low numbers.

 

"Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order each Chapter's size was determined at about a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller Chapter and continued to keep its old name, but the remaining Space Marine warriors were reorganised into new Chapters.

The new Chapters became known as the Second Founding. These Second Founding Chapters all decend from one of the original Legions, and so claim a genetic brotherhood with the original Space Marines and the Primarchs. For example, the Ultramarines Legion gave rise to not only the Ultramarine Chapter, but also to the Eagle Warriors Chapter amongst others. The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the genetic seed of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of Wulfen, and therefor decided against dividing and further spreading the Space Wolves' genetic base.

(...)

CHAPTER ORGANISATION

The Space Wolves are organised in a very different way from most other Space Marine Chapters. The Chapter dates from the First Founding and its structure ows more to the personalty of Leman Russ than it does to the Codex Astartes."

2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 9-11.

 

I know the bit about the High Lords not wanting to spread the Space Wolves geneseed further is sounds confusing, but the text does not really leave much doubt that the Space Wolves were reformed into a Chapter (even if that Chapter was not organised according to the Codex Astartes) and why exactly they were divided into only two.

 

In case 2nd Edition is too oldschool for you, there is also the 3rd Edition Index Astartes:

 

"Whereas the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. (...) The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times."

3rd Edition Index Astartes I, page 12-13.

 

So you see, I find it difficult to agree that the Space Wolves did not divide into two Chapters when that had specifically been stated in earlier sources.

 

 

I don't have either our old dex or the new one in front of me, but the new one at least specifically mentions an Inquisitor grabbing an Imperial fleet to try and force his way through a Space Wolf blockade of Fenris. He was trying to gather some information or another on the Space Wolves and the Space Wolves decided they weren't to impressed with that idea.

That really does sound like the story "The Ecclesiarchy comes to Fenris" from page 19 in the Space Wolves Codex: "A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns. (...)"

And no, the Ecclesiarchy is not "an arm of the Inquisition". The Ecclesiarchy, or "Adeptus Ministorum", is basically the Imperial Church. It is one of the central Imperial institutions, which can be seen on page 106 and 107 in the 5th Edition Rulebook. It is one job of the Ordo Hereticus to monitor the Ecclesiarchy, so they are not stepping out of line again as they did under Vandire. In 2nd Edition the Sisters of Battle had been exclusively the military branch of the Ecclesiarchy, but back then the concept of the Ordo Hereticus was not as fleshed out as it is today. In the Codex Witch Hunters, the Adepta Sororitas are given a closer relation to the Orde Hereticus.

 

"Given that the stated purpose of the Adepta Sororitas and the newly formed Ordo hereticus meshed seamlessly, it did not take long for the duties and hierarchy of both organisations to become part of the same holy purpose. Though the Adepta Sororitas would forever remain the Ecclesiarchy's primary armed force, they would also become the Chamber Militant of the Orde Hereticus. (...)

In addition to monitoring the Ecclesiarchy (...) the ordo Hereticus keeps a close eye on many other Imperial organisations: the Adeptus Arbites, the Space Marines and also fellow members of the Inquisition."

3rd Edition Codex Witch Hunters, page 5.

[Silverwolf]

The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the genetic seed of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of Wulfen, and therefor decided against dividing and further spreading the Space Wolves' genetic base.

 

That quote you posted right there supports what I said about division of the Space Wolves...

 

The Space Wolves never split the way all the other Chapters did, the only Chapter that was created from the Space Wolves was the Wolf Brothers, which were destroyed not long after. Due to instability in the Canis Helix or whatever the cause, successor chapters built from Space Wolf gene seed cannot work.

 

So not sure what your problem is with that part of my comment.

 

As to the rest, looks like you proved me wrong there, but my comments on the Inquisition attacking Fenris acctually stem from things I read several years back, not our latest dex, it was simply the most recent I could think of where I'd seen something along those lines. Considering I'm currently sitting at work I don't exactly have ready access to any of my codexes or rule books to read through and find exact passages :).

 

If you've been reading as much of the old fluff as you say, then your as well aware as I am of good 'ol GW "fluff creep". They embelish, and in so doing change, older fluff all the time.

[Legatus]

That quote you posted right there supports what I said about division of the Space Wolves...

Or maybe it supports that the Space Wolves gene-seed was never used for further Successors in later Foundings, as the reason for why the Space Wolves were divided only once in the first place is explicitely given. The Imperial Fists were divided into three Chapters, the Blood Angels into four (originally, the Blood Drinkers and Flesh Tearers were changed to Second Founding Chapters in 3rd Edition). The Space Wolves dividing into two Chapters is not too far out of the ordinary.

[Lord Ragnarok]

They didn't "throw it in the trash." It's just unclear how much they conform.

 

That said, there are 12 Great Companies not including the 13th. Some estimates are at a little over 100 per Great Company, some estimates are higher.

 

Though, to be fair, using the Space Wolves codex is far more appropriate for making a Space Wolves army, given some of our...specialties. :D

 

Let's not forget that there are many unrecorded lost companies. Companies who did not return home or who left because they did not agree/like the current great wolf. These lost companies are not renegades or traitors. They are still loyal to the emperor and Russ, but in keeping with the spirit of Russ they maintain their anti authoritarian way.

 

With respect to GC size. In the current codex it says Ragnar has the second largest GC after Logan. They state Ragnar's company is "near 200".

[HamHamLunchbox]

Unreliable? Yes. Alternate universe? No.

 

if you reed the sw books youll see that a lot of things are just not right at all.

 

like ragnat having black hair and thus is called ragnar blackmane whereas in the original fluff he was blond and called blackmane because of the black wolf fur hes wearing.they changed that in the last codex,but this is only one of the few things that are wrong.

 

its the same ragnar,but with a different story,thats why i called it an alternate universe.

 

there are even some wrong dates in the books,so it cant be the same universe(well its the same,but another version) :)

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

C:SM cannot be considered a valid source for SW organisation as it only represents what the other chapters think the SW did and not what actually happened.

 

C:SW makes it clear that it is not a 1000 marine chapter - aka Ultras Marines with a bit or fur and odd named squads. Rather that it retains the original pre-heresy structure.

 

The only thing Russ did to keep the others happy was to create the illusion of the Wolf Brothers - actually this was only one GC. Indeed C:SW suggests this when it does not state that the division was equal only that they divided to form them and that they were ill-fated. Why do I think this - well:

 

The Wolf Brothers was the name of given to Russ's companions prior to the arrival of the All Father; the survivors of which formed the core of the 13th GC.

 

The 13th GC are recorded as having a higher concentration of Wulfen and this is the genetic instability being referred to.

 

They disappeared from Imperial Records when the went into the EoT and are therefore considered ill-fated.

 

The 13th GC are the Wolfbrothers, the remaining twelve GCs form what is the original VI Legion less one GC - called a Chapter to keep the Imperium off their backs.

 

Simplies :)

[Demonslayer]

The 13th GC are the Wolfbrothers, the remaining twelve GCs form what is the original VI Legion less one GC - called a Chapter to keep the Imperium off their backs.

 

Simplies :D

 

I believe this is flawed just like our ill-fated Wolfbrothers, as the 13th Company disappeared before the end of the Horus Heresy.

The new Codex Astartes came into affect at the end of the Horus Heresy to stop it happening ever again

[Legatus]

The only thing Russ did to keep the others happy was to create the illusion of the Wolf Brothers

What I usually reply at this point is that I do not think that Russ would be one to use underhanded methods or lawyering to fool people that might expect something from him. I think he would either tell them to get lost or, if he still does not like the idea, grudgingly accept and then keep his word no matter how he thinks about it.

[Vash113]

Or maybe it supports that the Space Wolves gene-seed was never used for further Successors in later Foundings, as the reason for why the Space Wolves were divided only once in the first place is explicitely given. The Imperial Fists were divided into three Chapters, the Blood Angels into four (originally, the Blood Drinkers and Flesh Tearers were changed to Second Founding Chapters in 3rd Edition). The Space Wolves dividing into two Chapters is not too far out of the ordinary.

 

Again with this discussion... really? Its not like theres any new information or arguments. ;)

 

The only evidence to support a supposed "acceptance" of the Codex's decrees are 1: that the Space Wolves are known as a Chapter not a Legion and 2. The existence of the Wolf Brothers.

 

For the first point, that is really not evidence or proof of anything, Chapters existed before the Codex and there's absolutely no reason to believe the Space Wolves couldn't have re-dubbed themselves a Chapter without using or accepting any part of the Codex. After all even the Sons of Russ know when not to ruffle the High Lords feathers.

 

As for number 2, well again its not really proof of anything. The Wolf Brothers are repeatedly described as having been "split off" from the Legion, not that the Legion "broke up" which tells us that the Space Wolves Legion itself did not change, did not break down and probably did not accept any of the Codex's decrees. We also have multiple sources indicating that the Wolf Brothers were at the most a modest concession by Leman Russ that was an epic failure, and more likely was an act intended to fail and convince the High Lords not to try to force the Space Wolves to break up lest they want half a dozen Wolf Brothers incidents on their hands.

 

All told you're interpreting the text in a way that suits you but is not consistent with the facts or with the character of those involved. Even from a neutral stand point its clear that the Space Wolves were never reformed. In the words of C:SM the Space Wolves "owe nothing to it (The Codex) at all" and "The Space Wolves have never followed the Codex Astartes." The decree to split into Chapters and reform recruitment methods were both decrees of the Codex, its not possible to accept them without accepting the Codex, its not possible to accept them without owing something to the Codex or following it to some extent which we know the Space Wolves do not.

 

Simply put, the Space Wolves Legion never really broke down into Chapters, the "pilot program" of the Wolf Brothers showed the error of even attempting that, and the classification of the Space Wolves as a Chapter in the modern Imperium can be put down to a slow decline of numbers to not raise too much alarm or perhaps a purposeful renaming so as not to draw the ire of the High Lords.

 

The Space Wolves dividing into two Chapters is not too far out of the ordinary.

 

Finally this statement I think is the crux of your argument, but you're multiple steps away from proving it. First you have to show how the Space Wolves "divided" into two Chapters. Because the material just doesn't support that, splitting off the Wolf Brothers doesn't mean the Space Wolf Legion became a Chapter and no use of the word "divided" are used that would suggest an equal split or a breakdown that included the rest of the Space Wolves Legion, not just the Wolf Brothers. You also need to show how if the Legion truly broke up only two Chapters were formed, for the material from the Horus Heresy never comes close to indicating the Space Wolves had only around 2000 marines at the end of the Heresy. Apart from Prospero the Space Wolves did not suffer heavy cassualties and could easily have still been at half their starting strength or more which would have required the Legion to be divided into half a dozen Chapters or more, not two and even the largest estimates of the Space Wolves Chapter Strength wouldn't really allow for just 2 Chapters to encompasse all the old Legions numbers.

 

Finally, and most importantly, you have to show how the Wolf Brothers and title of Chapter for the Space Wolves indicates that they must have accepted the Codex decree and none of the other (far more likely) explenations aren't more valid or better supported.

 

So far neither you, nor anyone else for that matter, have proven any of those three critical points to indicate that "the Space Wolves did divide into Chapters according to the Codex." Right now such a statement is just not supported or even indicated by the material.

 

if you reed the sw books youll see that a lot of things are just not right at all.

....

there are even some wrong dates in the books,so it cant be the same universe(well its the same,but another version) :)

 

I'm afraid thats not how it works, yes some (if not many) things are contradictory, but you can find just as many examples of contradictory or incorrect material in Codexies and rulebooks. Heck one of the Astartes Praeses Chapters is listed on the 5th Edition C:SM galaxy map as being half the galaxy away from the Eye of Terror its supposed to be patrolling. In more official sources those contradictions become "retcons" and in Black Library novels they just become laughable but they still exist and are part of the same universe.

 

I believe this is flawed just like our ill-fated Wolfbrothers, as the 13th Company disappeared before the end of the Horus Heresy.

The new Codex Astartes came into affect at the end of the Horus Heresy to stop it happening ever again

 

Not necessarily, the dissapearance of the 13th Company and the inception of the Codex were not that far apart and its as good a theory as any.

 

What I usually reply at this point is that I do not think that Russ would be one to use underhanded methods or lawyering to fool people that might expect something from him. I think he would either tell them to get lost or, if he still does not like the idea, grudgingly accept and then keep his word no matter how he thinks about it.

 

Except thats not what the fluff indicates. On the contrary the codex material strongly suggests that Russ was indeed being a bit sly and cunning. Leman Russ was a Primarch after all, just because he was far more crass and direct than most does not mean he was incapable of subtlety when necessary. Rogal Dorn tried direct opposition and failed, Leman Russ appears to have learned from that mistake and was more cunning. You choose to think that Russ would have given in and accepted the Codex even if grudgingly but that is just a very biased theory not supported by any of the evidence. On the contrary all evidence supports Russ directly and indirectly telling the High Lords and Guilliman to "get lost" and he appears to have succeeded. The idea that Russ would give in to... anything forced on him is well... laughable and goes in direct contradiction of everything we know about his character.

 

All told Legatus coming into the discussion from a heavy Ultramarines bias, twisting the material to suit your ends and trying to tell us the Space Wolves accepted the Codex is just not going to accomplish anything. It hasn't before and I see no reason why it would now.

[Legatus]

For the first point, that is really not evidence or proof of anything, Chapters existed before the Codex and there's absolutely no reason to believe the Space Wolves couldn't have re-dubbed themselves a Chapter without using or accepting any part of the Codex. After all even the Sons of Russ know when not to ruffle the High Lords feathers.

 

As for number 2, well again its not really proof of anything. The Wolf Brothers are repeatedly described as having been "split off" from the Legion, not that the Legion "broke up" which tells us that the Space Wolves Legion itself did not change, did not break down and probably did not accept any of the Codex's decrees.

 

"The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller Chapters and a code was drawn up to redefine their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. (...) Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order each Chapter's size was determined at about a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller Chapter and continued to keep its old name, but the remaining Space Marine warriors were reorganised into new Chapters. (...)

The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. (...)

(...)

The Space Wolves are organised in a very different way from most other Space Marine Chapters. The Chapter dates from the First Founding and its structure owes more to the personality of Leman Russ than it does to the Codex Astartes."

2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 9-11.

 

How can anyone read that and come to the conclusion that when the background speaks of the Space Wolves Chapter it may not actually mean they are a Chapter, and that there is no indication that the Space Wolves reformed into a Chapter?

 

"The existing Space Marine Legions were broken up and refounded as smaller, more flexible formations. Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called the Chapter (...)

The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two)"

3rd Edition Index Astartes I, page 12-13

 

Not only would either of these sources have been a good place to point out that one of the Legions did not actually reform, no, those sources describing that they did would be wrong if that was not what the Space Wolves actually did.

 

 

Except thats not what the fluff indicates. On the contrary the codex material strongly suggests that Russ was indeed being a bit sly and cunning.

Pardon me, but employing cunning in a fight to get the upper hand is one thing. Giving one's word and then not planning on keeping it, or worse, intentionally pretending to keep it while not really keeping it is not something someone with a strong concept of "honour" would do.

 

 

trying to tell us the Space Wolves accepted the Codex

I am rather trying to tell you that the Space Wolves accepted the official reorganisation of all the Imperial armed forces.

[Karack Blackstone]

trying to tell us the Space Wolves accepted the Codex

I am rather trying to tell you that the Space Wolves accepted the official reorganisation of all the Imperial armed forces.

 

I've seen the arguments before and the search I did of this forum's previous pages went poorly. So to say it, please note that the reorganization of all Imperial Forces may have meant to other Chapters of Space Marines went the Codex route, Leman accepted the name of the reorganization and the reduction of numbers.

 

Not the new tactics and methods of fighting. Space Wolves don't fight like Ultramarines. If we did, we'd have tactical squads, not Grey Hunters.

 

It's all be argued out before, revisiting it because the thread was brought up again isn't going to make it any less vague.

 

Lord Ragnarok's post is relevant, and I think rather telling. Due to the constant flux in numbers, about 200 for Ragnar and around 200 for Logan are on the high end. The overall number is not clear and likely not to be known for some time if ever due to GW's inclination to not provide info on the GC's that left the Fang, yet remain loyal.

[Silverwolf]

The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. (...)

(...)

The Space Wolves are organised in a very different way from most other Space Marine Chapters. The Chapter dates from the First Founding and its structure owes more to the personality of Leman Russ than it does to the Codex Astartes."

2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 9-11.

 

How can anyone read that and come to the conclusion that when the background speaks of the Space Wolves Chapter it may not actually mean they are a Chapter, and that there is no indication that the Space Wolves reformed into a Chapter?

 

No where in there does it speak of a "reforming" of the Space Wolves. We never said they're not a chapter, to put it as simply as possible, "Chapter" is nothing but a name, a description, a label. After the creation of the Index Astartes, and Leman Russ agreeing to split off a portion of his forces to become the Wolf Brothers, the "Space Wolf Legion" simply became the "Space Wolf Chapter", therefore being a change of name, a change of their "label".

 

Such a change of name in no way indicates a change of structure, and in fact the second paragraph of your little quote there clearly indicates that it retained its original structure as set down by Leman Russ;

 

"The Chapter dates from the First Founding and its structure owes more to the personality of Leman Russ than it does to the Codex Astartes."

 

Not only would either of these sources have been a good place to point out that one of the Legions did not actually reform, no, those sources describing that they did would be wrong if that was not what the Space Wolves actually did.

 

Nowhere have we stated that the Space Wolves Legion reform back into it's former self, we've simply stated the fact that the only changes made to the original Space Wolf Legion, was the splitting away of the Wolf Brothers, and the change of name from "Space Wolf Legion", to "Space Wolf Chapter".

 

 

Pardon me, but employing cunning in a fight to get the upper hand is one thing. Giving one's word and then not planning on keeping it, or worse, intentionally pretending to keep it while not really keeping it is not something someone with a strong concept of "honour" would do.

 

Not really, cunning is cunning, on or off the battlefield. In fact most people cunning in the art of war are also cunning in the art of politics, as to be a good general you must first understand your enemy, and anticipate their reactions to various scenarios, much as you must when doing political manoeuvring.

 

Show me a quote that states Leman Russ promised to split his legion in half. Rogal Dorn and Leman Russ shared an opinion on the splitting of their Legions, and after Rogal's failed attempt to prevent this it is perfectly reasonable to assume Leman Russ would of used political manouvering and wordplay to keep his Legion as intact as possible. In no way is this being dishonest or dishonourable as you so claim. Infact many consider it far more honourable to be victorious in your goals, without having to resort to the battlefield. To be able to defeat an adversary, or to be victorious over an adversary, without having to draw blood is far more honourable then having to resort to taking lives, whether your adversary is a person, an orginisation, or simply an ideal (ie; The Index Astartes).

 

Leman Russ managed to use his cunning to maintain the structure (not the numbers) of his Space Wolves as he saw fit, while still placating the other chapters, the High Lords of Terra, and Guilliman.

 

 

I am rather trying to tell you that the Space Wolves accepted the official reorganisation of all the Imperial armed forces.

 

If by that you mean we accepted that other legions reorganised themselves... sure. If your trying to say that the Space Wolves reorganised themselves... well no, that just plain rubbish. As stated in your own quote;

 

"The Chapter dates from the First Founding and its structure owes more to the personality of Leman Russ than it does to the Codex Astartes."

 

We did not take on the Codex Astartes leadership setup, nor it's Company Organisation, nor even it's squad formations. The Space Wolves have, and always will, maintained the structural organisation of our Primarch, Leman Russ.

[Legatus]

No where in there does it speak of a "reforming" of the Space Wolves. We never said they're not a chapter, to put it as simply as possible, "Chapter" is nothing but a name, a description, a label.

Only that both the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves ad well as the Index Astartes Article explain what is meant by a "Chapter" a few sentences before mentioning the Space Wolves. Your line of reasoning is basically that the fluff does not mean what it says.

 

2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves:

"Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order each Chapter's size was determined at about a thousand" (...) "The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion, and so were divided only once" (...) The Space Wolves are organised in a very different way from most other Space Marine Chapters. The Chapter dates from the First Founding and its structure owes more to the personality of Leman Russ than it does to the Codex Astartes"

 

3rd Edition Index Astartes:

"Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called a Chapter" (...) "The existing Space Marine legions were divided into new Chapters" (...) "Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two)"

 

By any conventional reading that would read as: "a Chapter is about 1,000 warriors", "the Space Wolves became a Chapter", "therefor the Space Wolves were then about 1,000 warriors". But I guess the Space Wolves are not known for being "conventional".

 

 

Show me a quote that states Leman Russ promised to split his legion in half.

They did, so that kind of indicates that Russ said they would do that.

 

 

Leman Russ managed to use his cunning to maintain the structure (not the numbers) of his Space Wolves as he saw fit

I think I see where the issue is. If I have given you the impression that I wanted to suggest that the Space Wolves were reorganised into ten companies of 100 warriors then I apologise. The Space Wolves are still made out of 12 Great Companies with an undefined (but presumably higher than regular) number of warriors. That is nothing the Codex decree about the power any individual Astartes Chapter Master can command is concerned with. The term "Chapter" and "Legion", much like "Company" or "Squad" are defined first and foremost by the number of troops the refer to, and not so much by their composition. About 100 Marines are a "Company". It is not so much important that they are organised into 10 squads of 10 members. About 1000 Marines are a "Chapter". If a formation of Marines is referred to as "Legion" (unless it is their name, e.g. the Mentor Legion) then it refers to about 10,000 warriors.

The Space Wolves were reformed from a "Legion" into a "Chapter" (though certainly an oversized one), while maintaining a structure similar to the former Legion. They did not reorganise according to the Codex Astartes doctrines.

[Silverwolf]

Ok, my point about Chapter was that in reference to "Space Wolf Chapter" the word "Chapter" does not indicate our numbers, which you have just confirmed youself here;

 

The Space Wolves were reformed from a "Legion" into a "Chapter" (though certainly an oversized one)

 

I think my main problem with your arguement is your wording ;). You like to throw around the word "reform" a lot, which indicates a significant change of some kind. However the only real change we've had since Pre-Heresy is there aren't as many of us around. My arguement about their being a lack of reform is simply that there was no structural change.

 

Yes, we lost a fair chunk of numbers with the break away of the Wolf Brothers (Though you've still shown nothing that states it was half our remaining forces... saying "They did" is hardly proof :)), and over the years since the Horus Heresy the Great Wolves have allowed our numbers to dwindle somewhat to keep the peace more then anything else I suspect. Add to that our losses during the Horus Heresy, and our current Great Company strength estimates, and our current Chapter numbers would be something between 2000-3000 marines. If you really want to debate the number of marines in a Space Marine Chapter, go have a chat to our Black Templar brethren ;).

[Legatus]

I don't even think the Space Wolves "halved" their numbers during the Second Founding neccessarily. I can imagine that they had more than two standard sized Chapters, but too few for three, so they split off one standard sized Chapter in the form of the Wolfbrothers and kept an oversized one.

 

As other have suggested, the two biggest Great Companies are around 200 warriors, while most of the other Great Companies have to make due with Strike Cruiser equivalent ships (according to Black Library anyway), so are perhaps closer to 100 warriors (I guess 120-150). That could put the Space Wolves well close to 2,000 warriors. With my personal favourite average of 125 per Great Company it would be about 1,500 warriors for the entire Space Wolves Chapter.

 

 

If they have around thet number now and were only divided once during the Second Founding I see no reason to doubt that they were around that number after the Second Founding. The point is that the Space Wolves Chapter Master was not in controll of a Legion sized force anymore, as would have been the case prior to the Second Founding if the Space Wolves had rebuilt back to full strength.

 

 

Regarding the Black Templars, I have no dounbt that they were founded as a regular sized Chapter during the Second Founding. It would have been relatively easy to check on all the numbers at that time, since the number of Marines was low and there was a centralised overall command. Since then the Black Templars have gone out crusading, without employing any regulations on how many new recruits each individually operating Crusade can gather. So other than famous Chapters like the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels, who keep up to full Chapter strength but do not keep recruiting to excess, the Black Templars have been growing in number over the past millenia.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I don't even think the Space Wolves "halved" their numbers during the Second Founding neccessarily. I can imagine that they had more than two standard sized Chapters, but too few for three, so they split off one standard sized Chapter in the form of the Wolfbrothers and kept an oversized one.

 

This doesn't accord with SW canon, which speaks of Russ reluctantly formed a separate Chapter, not forming two equally sized 1000-marine Chapters. Remember that Chapter in the HH mean the same as Great Company and consisted of three 'normal' companies. See Tales of Heresy for more information.

 

As other have suggested, the two biggest Great Companies are around 200 warriors, while most of the other Great Companies have to make due with Strike Cruiser equivalent ships (according to Black Library anyway), so are perhaps closer to 100 warriors (I guess 120-150). That could put the Space Wolves well close to 2,000 warriors. With my personal favourite average of 125 per Great Company it would be about 1,500 warriors for the entire Space Wolves Chapter.

 

This is not what C:SW says as only the size of Ragnar's GC is mentioned - it has been quoted correctly on this thread already.

 

A Strike Cruiser would be but the flag ship of a GC fleet - not the only vessel.

 

If they have around thet number now and were only divided once during the Second Founding I see no reason to doubt that they were around that number after the Second Founding. The point is that the Space Wolves Chapter Master was not in controll of a Legion sized force anymore, as would have been the case prior to the Second Founding if the Space Wolves had rebuilt back to full strength.

 

Regarding the Black Templars, I have no dounbt that they were founded as a regular sized Chapter during the Second Founding. It would have been relatively easy to check on all the numbers at that time, since the number of Marines was low and there was a centralised overall command. Since then the Black Templars have gone out crusading, without employing any regulations on how many new recruits each individually operating Crusade can gather. So other than famous Chapters like the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels, who keep up to full Chapter strength but do not keep recruiting to excess, the Black Templars have been growing in number over the past millenia.

 

Delete 'crusading', insert 'great hunts' and you may start to see the true size of the VI Legion - I mean Chapter :D

 

I'm not sure why followers of other Chapters get so upset by the idea of Russ pulling a fast one over the rest of the Imperium. He didn't agree with Gulliman, but thought guile more effective than add to the fear, ignorance and confrontation that hounded the post HH years.

 

Hence the duplicity in calling one GC a Chapter (as they were called in the Dark Angels) and keeping the Legion, its organisation and methodology intact.

[Legatus]

This doesn't accord with SW canon, which speaks of Russ reluctantly formed a separate Chapter, not forming two equally sized 1000-marine Chapters.

I quoted the canon twice already in this thread, I would prefer not to have do it again.

 

 

Remember that Chapter in the HH mean the same as Great Company and consisted of three 'normal' companies. See Tales of Heresy for more information.

That's not what I remember a "Chapter" to mean. I do remember reading somewhere that certain Legions in teh Horus heresy series are described to use different Company sizes though.

 

 

This is not what C:SW says as only the size of Ragnar's GC is mentioned - it has been quoted correctly on this thread already.

Quoted correctly as Ragnars Great Company being second only to the Great Wolf's. That means it ranks above (or perhaps on par with some of) the rest of the Chapter's Great Companies.

 

 

A Strike Cruiser would be but the flag ship of a GC fleet - not the only vessel.

A Strike Cruiser is also the smallest known vessel that transports Space Marines IIRC. I am not totally into the BFG background though, perhaps they mentioned other Ships? When the Black Library books describe the Chapters 15 Ships it seems to be pretty conclusive. Escorts are just extras.

 

 

Delete 'crusading', insert 'great hunts' and you may start to see the true size of the VI Legion - I mean Chapter msn-wink.gif

"Great Hunt" = "technically Lost to the Chapter". It would be inappropriate to count them as part of the Chapter by that point. The Wolves maintain a blank stone for all of them instead of still counting them as one of the 12 Great Companies for a reason.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

This doesn't accord with SW canon, which speaks of Russ reluctantly formed a separate Chapter, not forming two equally sized 1000-marine Chapters.

I quoted the canon twice already in this thread, I would prefer not to have do it again.

 

You've consistently quotes C:SM canon which is the Imperium's version of events and often differs from C:SW canon which holds sway in the Fang

 

 

Remember that Chapter in the HH mean the same as Great Company and consisted of three 'normal' companies. See Tales of Heresy for more information.

That's not what I remember a "Chapter" to mean. I do remember reading somewhere that certain Legions in teh Horus heresy series are described to use different Company sizes though.

 

Best read the book then - it's the DA story. Chapter, Great Company, Grand Company are all different names for the same thing.

 

 

This is not what C:SW says as only the size of Ragnar's GC is mentioned - it has been quoted correctly on this thread already.

Quoted correctly as Ragnars Great Company being second only to the Great Wolf's. That means it ranks above (or perhaps on par with some of) the rest of the Chapter's Great Companies.

 

correct, but the Great Wolf's is his own GC and the Chapter HQ - so it is significantly bigger. Also, whilst Ragnar's is the next biggest, C:SW does not say that it is bigger by the margin you suggest.

 

 

A Strike Cruiser would be but the flag ship of a GC fleet - not the only vessel.

A Strike Cruiser is also the smallest known vessel that transports Space Marines IIRC. I am not totally into the BFG background though, perhaps they mentioned other Ships? When the Black Library books describe the Chapters 15 Ships it seems to be pretty conclusive. Escorts are just extras.

 

Escorts would all need a crew - maybe only a pack or two, but you'll soon find that adding up

 

 

Delete 'crusading', insert 'great hunts' and you may start to see the true size of the VI Legion - I mean Chapter msn-wink.gif

"Great Hunt" = "technically Lost to the Chapter". It would be inappropriate to count them as part of the Chapter by that point. The Wolves maintain a blank stone for all of them instead of still counting them as one of the 12 Great Companies for a reason.

 

No Great Hunts aren't lost to the Chapter at all - they are on a Great Hunt and often return. You're mistaking them for the lost companies that make up the 13th tablet.

[Legatus]

You've consistently quotes C:SM canon which is the Imperium's version of events and often differs from C:SW canon which holds sway in the Fang

I have, on three occasions, quoted from the 2nd Editon Codex Space Wolves as well as the 3rd Edition Index Astartes I article about the Codex Astartes. I provided references every time.

 

 

Best read the book then - it's the DA story.

I actually just bothered to read it. In that story, a Dark Angels Chapter consists of one thousand Marines, and one company concists of one hundred warriors. The story starts on board of a battel barge, and that only carries three companies (which battle barges are known for). At one point the good Chapter Master faces the douchy Chapter master and declares: "You command over a thousand Marines, and so do I".

 

 

Chapter, Great Company, Grand Company are all different names for the same thing.

During the Great Crusade, a great Company might have refered to a similar formation as a Chapter. Bt if we know one thing for a fact, then it is that current Great Companies of the Space Wolves Chapter are not 1,000 warriors strong.

 

 

correct, but the Great Wolf's is his own GC and the Chapter HQ - so it is significantly bigger. Also, whilst Ragnar's is the next biggest, C:SW does not say that it is bigger by the margin you suggest.

No, of course. It is the "one ship per Great Company" that suggests that.

 

 

Escorts would all need a crew - maybe only a pack or two, but you'll soon find that adding up

To bad the Black Library novel was not taking that into account when it stated that the Chapter had 15 ships, one per Great Company and three in reserve. There currently is no source describing that escorts have a much more important role in the Space Wolves Chapter than tehy do in other Chapters. I am going to disregard such speculation.

 

 

No Great Hunts aren't lost to the Chapter at all

Then I guess those Great Companies would not be represented by the empty stone but instead by their own among the 12 other Stones. In that case it would be one of the regular 12 Great Companies, and not "the 12 Companies plus all those that went on a great hunt".

[Demonslayer]

Delete 'crusading', insert 'great hunts' and you may start to see the true size of the VI Legion - I mean Chapter msn-wink.gif

"Great Hunt" = "technically Lost to the Chapter". It would be inappropriate to count them as part of the Chapter by that point. The Wolves maintain a blank stone for all of them instead of still counting them as one of the 12 Great Companies for a reason.

 

Space Wolves don't go on crusades, we go on Great Hunts instead, usually by the word of the great Russ himself.

 

As for the size of the Space Wolves it will never be known or can be proved apart from it has 12 Company's. (Remember 13th doesn't exist ;))

 

But since everyone having a go I think I mite, here goes;

 

Lets say we start with a Legion size of 8000 as its one of the smaller Legions.

Divide by 13 Company's = About 615 pC

8000 - 1 lost Company = 7385

minus 1 ill-fated Chapter of about 1000 = 6385

Now lets take away 100 wolves pC for losses = 5185

How about 185 of these wolves gene seeds are kept for safe keeping, you never know = 5000

So there you have it 5000, now you just need to take away total losses and missing Company's to get the right figure ;)

 

Or an even easier way, add all your Space Wolf models up, post them here so they can be counted and then we will have a close estimate :)

 

Ok all sorted my me, send over your ales

[Karack Blackstone]

I'm going to second the, "At no point were the Wolf Brothers listed as a fully 50% split from the Space Wolves Legion" that's been brought up.

 

I don't have a source, but I do recall seeing something along the lines of Leman wanting his sons to not be broken up and defeated piecemeal, I also like the above numbers, which are rather clear and suggested by the Ragnar books there were many Space Wolves in the Fang after all was said and done.

[Legatus]

Lets say we start with a Legion size of 8000 as its one of the smaller Legions.

Ok, why not.

 

 

minus 1 ill-fated Chapter of about 1000 = 6385

Now lets take away 100 wolves pC for losses = 5185

The first thing I wonder would be why you substract losses from the newly founded Space Wolves Chapter isntead of the previous Space Wolves Legion. The Heresy and the Scouring happened before the Second Founding, after all. But that would merely result in 100 or so fewer Wolves in this case. Which brings me to my second pint, which is your ver yoptimistic casualty suggestion. According to the 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves (page 9) though not present at Istvaan V or Terra the Space Wolves "took part in some of the most reknowned actions" in the Heresy (IIRC other sources mention Tallarn, for example), they were "pivortal in one of the early campaigns, when the entire Legion attacked Prospero", and after the defeat of Horus Leman Russ "led the Space Wolves deep inside the Eye of Terror". Around 16% losses seems very generous.

 

But since the starting number and casualties are arbitrary anyways, why not go with 6,000 for the Legion and 50% losses during their actions during the Heresy and the Scouring, so that we arrive at the number the background about the Second Founding suggests?

 

 

I'm going to second the, "At no point were the Wolf Brothers listed as a fully 50% split from the Space Wolves Legion" that's been brought up.

No, admittedly there is no fluff explaining that the Wolf Brothers were fully 50% of the former Space Wolves Legion. We do have fluff explaining that the Legions were reformed into about 1,000 strong Chapters and that the Space Wolves in particular were reformed into only two Chapters. Does that count for anything?

 

 

I don't have a source, but I do recall seeing something along the lines of Leman wanting his sons to not be broken up and defeated piecemeal

In the 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves (page 9) that is speculated to "perhaps" be the reason for why there are no more Space Wolves successors other than the Wolf Brothers. Either that or "perhaps" because the High Lords chose to not further spread their geneseed. While that paragraph is taken almost directly from the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, the part about "perhaps Russ did not want to divide his Legion" was added by Phil Kelly, while the specific reason that "they had never been a very Large Legion" has been omitted. The new text is more ambiguous (or should I say "ominous"?), where the earlier description was more specific. Much like the new Codex Dark Angels is ambiguous about what Secret the Rock might contain, while the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death was more specific in that it was the body of Lion El Johnson, hidden by the Watchers in the Dark.