Wolf Companies...

[Karack Blackstone]

The biggest theme to keep in mind with Warhammer 40,000 is the loss of vital information over time. Corruption comes in many forms. The Space Wolves fight this in many ways, among them keeping verbal sagas that are checked by Bjorn for accuracy. These sagas have also come in with new rules in the 5th Edition Codex.

 

With these changes, Games Workshop seems to be keeping what they want and reinventing what they see will make the army more interesting. In the process, it seems we must lose some vital information. This is mostly a flowing argument because the lore we are basing it off of comes in multiple generations, with varying accuracy.

 

To say it plainly, this has, can and will be debated ad nauseum, and there is little to be gained by it. We only know that the Wolf Brothers were created at Chapter strength, and that the Space Wolves have 12 Great Companies, versus a Codex Marine's 10 standard Companies. That right there tells me that if they are the same per company, the Space Wolves would be around 1,200 warriors. If we up it to 120 x 10, and 200 x 2, we get 1600. And that's being both fair and a bit harsh, since both Ragnar's and Logan's GC's are listed in the 5th Ed Codex as being around 200.

 

Without re-arguing everything, the point I want to make in this thread is that if one is limited to only one interpretation of the fluff/lore, there's little to be done in terms of bringing up potentially conflicting views, as far as interpretations go.

 

One Chapter, the Wolf Brothers, does not mean that the rest of the legion was reduced to Chapter size, according to all the fluff we have from a Space Wolves perspective. From everyone else' perspective, we should have. Why didn't we?

 

- We're the Sons of Russ, we do our own thing. From the 3rd Ed Codex we couldn't even take allied HQ's because we had no free slots.

- What's the biggest rub out there? Being the biggest. We're known to be loyal, our size is at debate. Glad it's not our loyalty, that would be a heavily modded thread.

- Thunderwolf Cavalry - I bring this up because it is new, and yet, until we get models for it, needed in a new unit to adapt to fighting what we face. Learning is something all units in warfare should do, coming up with new tactics is often a wiser and more effective method. At times, it can be a detriment, as well.

- Size of a Great Company - Fluctuates rather often due to losses and new Blood Claw units, but I would guess around 1600, as noted above, as a general number. Units may not always be a full strength due to injuries, and we don't replace losses, we form new packs. As far as WHEN we were larger in the past, before the Great Hunts and the GCs that have left the Fang for various reasons, I can see it being much larger, easily 2,000 or more.

 

Why guard your numbers when allies are concerned? When even your allies don't know your numbers and tactics well, the enemy that captures said ally won't know any better than they do.

[Legatus]

The question is not about them being the biggest. The Black Templars seem to occupy that spot, though from time to time the outlandish estimations of 1,000 warriors per Great Company pop up. Around 1,600 for the entire Chaoter sounds about right. The issue is about claims that the Space Wolves alone did not cut down to the requested size when everyone else did. Aside from the (older) fluff I have cited there is the fact that it almost came to blows with the Imperial Fists because they did not want to comply. And then there are claims that the Space Wolves did not change from Legion strength without any kind of repercussions. What's more is that this is often presented as some kind of cunning achievement on the part of the Space Wolves, instead of plain lying in the face of the Administratum and the High Lords of Terra about complying with their decrees without actually doing it.

[Karack Blackstone]

This old topic you mention is best summed up in different mindsets. Warriors from Fenris to our (the players) knowledge enjoy mind games and making things out to be what they are not, when the situation warrants it. In the Codex for SW's is a test mentioned about testing the mental faculties of an initiate to see how they hold up in a mental argument/debate.

 

Saying one thing and doing something else is not what we're trying to get at. We simply don't know if the Space Wolves WERE forced to split down, or simply did something to appear to be at the correct size. We only know that the debate is roughly moot because there is no fluff out there to get valid data out of.

 

Bringing up old debates and having a re-debacle isn't going to change that we have no real solid info on what did or did not happen at that time. At best we have players that feel one way, and suspect that the Space Wolves may have played move the numbers to get to the correct totals for the Ecclesiarchy's liking. Is that wrong? I take this perspective: What lets me kill the enemy better? Numbers that are safe for the Imerium and a few or more Companies formed from our spare brothers (not the Wolf Brothers here) plying the stars to better defend. We got the idea for Companies leaving if their Wolf Lord doesn't like the current Great Wolf from somewhere. Does that make for a weaker Imperium? I say no.

 

I'd say if you're looking to debate the finer points of Fenrisian Honor and its tenets, that's another thread and this one is about numbers (OP wanted info on what makes up a GC). By saying about 1600 sounds right you're not helping the situation by continuing a debate when what we seem to have is a consensus currently.

 

---

 

Edit:

 

OP, as far as overall makeup, each Great Company is unto itself as the Wolf Lord decides. If you want a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf Mount, 3 Wolf Priests w/ Jump Packs, 30 Scouts, 15 Thunderwolves, 90 Blood Claws, 30 Skyclaws, and 18 Long Fangs you'd have 187 Space Wolves.

 

Or...

 

You could go with 60 Grey Hunters, and end up with 157 Space Wolves. That's only changing one unit type, we have access to many.

 

To say it, we have no set unit organization, so unlike a Codex army, there's no 6 Tactical, 2 Jump, 2 Dev, Two Dreads, 1 Captain. It's find what you like and enjoy your army.

[Silverwolf]

Nicely worded Karack.

 

I think I need to start bringing all my SW / SM Codexes to work for these occasions :P. If I find the quotes in relation to the info I've got floating around in my head Legatus then you and I shall continue this discussion later ;) ;). I think one problem with said info is some of it has probably come from old rogue trader articles and WD magazines... which are always hard to track down again. I need to find someone whos selling they're old WD collection again :D.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

You've consistently quotes C:SM canon which is the Imperium's version of events and often differs from C:SW canon which holds sway in the Fang

I have, on three occasions, quoted from the 2nd Editon Codex Space Wolves as well as the 3rd Edition Index Astartes I article about the Codex Astartes. I provided references every time.

 

Ah, a selective memory at work - you've also quoted from C:SM at least as many times and treated it as equally valid with regards to SW organisation.

 

 

Best read the book then - it's the DA story.

I actually just bothered to read it. In that story, a Dark Angels Chapter consists of one thousand Marines, and one company concists of one hundred warriors. The story starts on board of a battel barge, and that only carries three companies (which battle barges are known for). At one point the good Chapter Master faces the douchy Chapter master and declares: "You command over a thousand Marines, and so do I".

 

The dangers of speed reading or just more selective memory.

 

On p.288 Astelan actually states, 'You command more than a thousand of the finest warriors in the Galaxy, so do I.' Yet each only has three companies of marines under command and the story shows that this is, and has been for quite a while, the full extent of his command. So if a company is one hundred marines the rest must be other troops...

 

Then, there are some eight battle barges mentioned on p.278 in total, as well as three fleet carriers and eight light cruisers.

 

So having established your unreliability when it comes to quoting - perhaps you'll understand why I do not consider your conclusions valid.

 

 

Chapter, Great Company, Grand Company are all different names for the same thing.

During the Great Crusade, a great Company might have refered to a similar formation as a Chapter. Bt if we know one thing for a fact, then it is that current Great Companies of the Space Wolves Chapter are not 1,000 warriors strong.

 

See above

 

 

correct, but the Great Wolf's is his own GC and the Chapter HQ - so it is significantly bigger. Also, whilst Ragnar's is the next biggest, C:SW does not say that it is bigger by the margin you suggest.

No, of course. It is the "one ship per Great Company" that suggests that.

 

But Ragnar doesn't have a battle barge so how does he move his GC - once again, selective quoting is letting you down.

 

 

Escorts would all need a crew - maybe only a pack or two, but you'll soon find that adding up

To bad the Black Library novel was not taking that into account when it stated that the Chapter had 15 ships, one per Great Company and three in reserve. There currently is no source describing that escorts have a much more important role in the Space Wolves Chapter than tehy do in other Chapters. I am going to disregard such speculation.

 

Yet you are happy to speculate and misquote up until now - this seems disingenuous.

 

Given the above, I think I'll bow out and let your try and mislead someone else - poor show.

[Karack Blackstone]

I am going to disregard such speculation.

 

And yet speculation is all we have currently, because how we interpret what has been said is always different, as we each as individuals are always different.

 

Codex Space Wolves deals more accurately with the Space Wolves, while the Codex Space Marines is arguably at best data preserved by others. We don't know why the GW people are not presenting the same thing in both books. Therefore any conclusions we come to are by definition speculation, simply by being extrapolations from raw data we did not make.

[Legatus]

Ah, a selective memory at work - you've also quoted from C:SM at least as many times and treated it as equally valid with regards to SW organisation.

The dangers of speed reading or just more selective memory.

 

On p.288 Astelan actually states, 'You command more than a thousand of the finest warriors in the Galaxy, so do I.' Yet each only has three companies of marines under command

You are pulling my leg, right? :o

 

 

you've also quoted from C:SM at least as many times and treated it as equally valid with regards to SW organisation.

At the top of the forum page you can switch back to earlier pages and double check. I quoted the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves and the 3rd Edition Index Astartes I article about the Codex Astartes. I also once quoted the 3rd Edition Codex Witch Hunters on a matter concerning the Ecclesiarchy.

 

 

On p.288 Astelan actually states, 'You command more than a thousand of the finest warriors in the Galaxy, so do I.' Yet each only has three companies of marines under command and the story shows that this is, and has been for quite a while, the full extent of his command.

I must have completely missed the bit about where the three Companies Astelan had with him on his Battle Barge were explained to be his only Companies. Perhaps you can point that paragraph out to me so I will know better?

 

Then, there are some eight battle barges mentioned on p.278 in total

Eight Battle Barges could carry a total of 24 Companies, or perhaps just 20, the equivalent of two Chapters, if not all of them are carrying the maximum of three Companies.

It would take at least 4 Battle Barges for a Single Chapter (3 Barges with three Companies and 1 Barge with one Companie, or 2 Barges with three Companies and 2 Barges with two). So 8 Battle Barges would match exactly with Astelans and Belaths Chapters.

 

 

But Ragnar doesn't have a battle barge so how does he move his GC - once again, selective quoting is letting you down.

Or maybe that has to do with the Novel "Grey Hunter" gaving been written in 2002 by William King, while the current Codex Space Wolves has been written in 2009 by Phil Kelly. So maybe the "Grey Hunter" Ragnar who has a single Strike Cruiser is not supposed to have 200 warriors, while the "Codex Space Wolves" Ragnar who has 200 warriors is not supposed to have a single Strike Cruiser? Nah, I am probably just making excuses. The Authors would have matched their stories...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

how big are we assuming the Legions to be at this point?

 

cause in "Raven's Flight", Corax said he brought 80,000 Raven Guard Marines, and then describes how his is one of the smaller legions.

so he brought 80,000 marines to the fight, and left enough Marines at home to later break through the traitor fleet and rescue him.

 

WLK

[Barn]

how big are we assuming the Legions to be at this point?

 

cause in "Raven's Flight", Corax said he brought 80,000 Raven Guard Marines, and then describes how his is one of the smaller legions.

so he brought 80,000 marines to the fight, and left enough Marines at home to later break through the traitor fleet and rescue him.

 

WLK

 

 

I was about to say exactly that lol

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

how big are we assuming the Legions to be at this point?

 

cause in "Raven's Flight", Corax said he brought 80,000 Raven Guard Marines, and then describes how his is one of the smaller legions.

so he brought 80,000 marines to the fight, and left enough Marines at home to later break through the traitor fleet and rescue him.

 

WLK

 

 

I was about to say exactly that lol

 

great minds, eh?

 

WLK

[Legatus]

The 2nd Edition as well as the 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves states that "before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors" (e.g. the IA Iron Warriors states the Iron Warriors had about 12,000, while the Ultramarines had about 25,000 after the Scouring), and the background about the Second Founding was allways based on those numbers, so it would not make a lot of sense to go with the Black Library Legion figures in this instance. Gav in particular has stated in his blog that he is more a fan of the more "epic" larger Legions, and uses those numbers in most of his Horus Heresy books (he did the Dark Angels books and Raven's Flight for example). IIRC the newer Horus Heresy books supposedly now sometimes use the lower numbers, but I have not read any of them.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

as far as i remember, having read all of the new HH books, the Legions number are truely legion, far in excess of 10,000, which if i am honest, always thought was a bit small to conquor so much in so little a time period. the more "epic" number makes more sense in my book.

 

i put the numbers given in the Wolf codex next to the fluff where Ulrik trained Logan, yet wasnt a Wolf Priest until after the First War of Armageddon: in the doesnt make sense so ignore stack.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

IIRC the 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves dates the first war for Armageddon in the third decade (so between 210.M41 and 300.M41), which would have indeed been in the early years of Logan Grimnars career as a Space Wolf. However, Logan Grimnar had allways been said to have been in Command during the first War for Armageddon, and other sources seem to put it at 444.M41, at which point he could already have been Chapter Master. I guess the dating in the 5th Edition Codex was a bit of a blunder, and the following story about Ulrik just being promoted to a Wolf Priest during that campaign.

 

 

As far as Legion size goes, some people prefer the smaller numbers, some prefer the larger ones. You are entiteled to your preferences, however I find it a bit odd to suggest to go with the larger numbers when every source that deals with the Space Wolves during the Second Founding uses with the smaller figures.

 

If you indeed want to go with the larger figures then you have to consider that the other two Legions that were not involved at Istvaan V or Terra did not get through the Heresy and the Scouring without horrendous casualties either. The Ultramarines would then have been down from 250,000 warriors to about 24,000, while the Dark Angels only had about 4,000 at the time of the Scouring. It stands to reason that the Space Wolves would have suffered similar losses. There would then be no way of arguing that they then could not have been down to about 2,000 warriors themselves during the Time of the Second Founding.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

IIRC the 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves dates the first war for Armageddon in the third decade (so between 210.M41 and 300.M41), which would have indeed been in the early years of Logan Grimnars career as a Space Wolf. However, Logan Grimnar had allways been said to have been in Command during the first War for Armageddon, and other sources seem to put it at 444.M41, at which point he could already have been Chapter Master. I guess the dating in the 5th Edition Codex was a bit of a blunder, and the following story about Ulrik just being promoted to a Wolf Priest during that campaign.

 

 

As far as Legion size goes, some people prefer the smaller numbers, some prefer the larger ones. You are entiteled to your preferences, however I find it a bit odd to suggest to go with the larger numbers when every source that deals with the Space Wolves during the Second Founding uses with the smaller figures.

 

If you indeed want to go with the larger figures then you have to consider that the other two Legions that were not involved at Istvaan V or Terra did not get through the Heresy and the Scouring without horrendous casualties either. The Ultramarines would then have been down from 250,000 warriors to about 24,000, while the Dark Angels only had about 4,000 at the time of the Scouring. It stands to reason that the Space Wolves would have suffered similar losses. There would then be no way of arguing that they then could not have been down to about 2,000 warriors themselves during the Time of the Second Founding.

 

I would LOVE to see where you get your causalty numbers from, first. I have never seen anything that provided a number value.

 

and if Fenris could support supplicants to a Legion before the Heresy, and has suffered no major incident that would reduce its population, then what stops them from rebuilding to their previous size?

Other than a codex we dont follow that is.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

I would LOVE to see where you get your causalty numbers from, first. I have never seen anything that provided a number value.

From the Second Founding figures, which can be foundin every Codex Space Marines since 2nd Edition IIRC. The Ultramarines were divided into 24 Chapters (the Ultramarines Chapter and 23 Successors), while the Dark Angels were divided into 4 (the Dark Angels Chapter and 3 successors).

 

(Gha, now I am actually referencing the Codex Space Marines, that is not going to sit well with certain members... :huh: )

[Grey Mage]

Mostly its just your assumption that its 1,000 per chapter that split when its pretty clear that even the Ultramarines are far more than 1,000 strong.

[Legatus]

That's why I usually write "1000 warriors". The command and specialist staff is usually not counted when a Chapter's strength is given. The 1000 per Chapter refers specifically to line troopers, ten companies with ten squads of ten warriors. It does not count Captains, Chaplains, Honour Guard and the like. 1 Chapter = 1000, 4 Chapters = 4000 is easy to throw around, even if given as total members it would be like 1327 and 4842 or some such. The Ultramarines Legion might have had something like 28,730 Members which were then distributed between 24 Chapters. It is just much more convenient to say they had "about 24,000 warriors" and thus had enough for 24 Chapters.

[Grey Mage]

Except it would take more like 28,000 Marines to make 24 chapters.... see where Im going with this? I know the math is easier with simpler numbers but that kind of accounting will get us in trouble sooner or later.

 

We also dont know exactly how the process of splitting a legion into chapters is preformed. Did they just say "ok, companies 1, 7, 18, 22, 24, 25, 31, 48, 51, and recruit contingent 7... your own Novamarines." All at once for each successor?

 

Or did they split them off one at a time, doling out resources to each of their successors as seemed needed?

 

Did all the legions do it the same way? Or did they do it under the orders of the primarch in a manner that suited him?

 

Were all the new chapters founding even at 1,000 fighting men, or were they willing to make some smaller and let them regain their numbers to full strength?

 

We dont know. After 10,000 years all we have is vague recollections and tattered remnants of copies of copies of copies of origional documents. Few could say, and certainly the official fluff is sparse on it.

[Legatus]

We also dont know exactly how the process of splitting a legion into chapters is preformed. Did they just say "ok, companies 1, 7, 18, 22, 24, 25, 31, 48, 51, and recruit contingent 7... your own Novamarines." All at once for each successor?

Most Legions already had "Chapters". It was an existing sub-unit of the Legion, 1000 warriors, in turn sub-divided into Companies. Some Legions had slightly different formations, but some of them had Chapters. Thus it was in most cases as simlpe as declaring the Chapter Commander as the independent leader of his Chapter, and he could chose his own colour scheme and name.

 

 

Or did they split them off one at a time, doling out resources to each of their successors as seemed needed?

There are the events refered to as "Founding", so I personally would assume it was all done in one draft, though probably not over night. After a Primarch had agreed to divide the Legion into Chapters he probably had some time untill he had to prsent the list of Chapters, their Commanders, Names and Colour Cheme.

 

 

Were all the new chapters founding even at 1,000 fighting men, or were they willing to make some smaller and let them regain their numbers to full strength?

I assume some may have been understrength. The Imperial Fists in particular probably had less than a Full Chapter left for themselves after the Iron Cage incident, which might explain why they retreated for 20 years after the Second Founding before emerging as a new and fully Codex compliant Chapter. Since the goal was to create separated forces of about 1000 warriors in strength (GW uses these conventions, not counting staff and specialists, so I really see no neccessity to be overtly pedantic) I don't think there would have been many that were created at over strength. I could imagine Russ did not want to create three understrength Chapters and so kept slightly more than a basic Chapter for himself. It is not even strictly forbidden to have more than those 1000 warriors, as it is permitted to increse numbers slightly during times of prolonged war. The "1000 warriors" is the guide line, though, and it corresponds to the traditional "Chapter" structure, so it is the established Chapter size.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

the ultramarines are only recorded as making 24 chapters after the HH...that doesnt really mean they ONLY made 24 chapters, its that they only recorded making that many. the imperium of man proves that while it cant change the future, it has little qualms on erasing or losing the past.

 

and the ultramarines were responsible for 3/5ths of the marines during the Scouring, so they would have taken a unusual number of casaulties...the Wolves werent though. we have the invasion of prospero and the ambush by the alpha legion. after that history doesnt record any more of our actions.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

the ultramarines are only recorded as making 24 chapters after the HH...that doesnt really mean they ONLY made 24 chapters

One does get the impression that the list of successor Chapters is exhaustive, except for the Ultramarinesh, where only a hand full of successors is mentioned by name, with an added foot note that there are supposedly 23 total successors listed.

 

If we start to disregard more and more fluff then we will not really get anywhere, though you might finally be rid of me at least. :)

 

 

and the ultramarines were responsible for 3/5ths of the marines during the Scouring, so they would have taken a unusual number of casaulties

From the entirety of the Space Marine casualties, about 3/5th would probably have come from the Ultramarines. That does not mean that they had a higher casualty rate than the other Legions. I.e. if the Ultramarines lost "half", then you would expect the other Legions, fighting just as hard, would also lose "half". Of course, "half" would mean 125,000 warriors for the Ultramarines, but only perhaps 50,000 warriors for the Dark Angels. E.g., where the 250,000 strong Ultramarines Legion might have taken on 2.5 million Orks at the same time, the 100,000 (assuming) strong Dark Angels Legion would have taken on 1 million Orks, which would have had both Legions fighting equally hard. The Ultramarines would obviously lose more, but not at a higher rate.

 

 

and the ultramarines were responsible for 3/5ths of the marines during the Scouring, so they would have taken a unusual number of casaulties...the Wolves werent though. we have the invasion of prospero and the ambush by the alpha legion. after that history doesnt record any more of our actions.

According to the 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 9, ("Wolves", see?) they were heavily involved in the fighting during the heresy and the scouring, even if they were not present at terra. They "took part in some of the most reknowned actions", they were "pivortal in one of the early campaigns, when the entire Legion attacked Prospero", and finally Leman Russ even "led the Space Wolves deep inside the Eye of Terror". If the Ultramarines are reduced from 250,000 warriors down to about 24,000, then the Space Wolves would have shamed themselves if they would have emerged unscathed from those times.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

the first problem i see is that you think we are getting anywhere. :P these debates never get anywhere but they still pop up every few months. this is one of the times i felt like dipping my toe in...and now i see why i dont.

 

and

If we start to disregard more and more fluff then we will not really get anywhere, though you might finally be rid of me at least

 

this comment just seems silly, as i pointed out the many many holes that exist in the fluff of GW. hell, a fluff hole was created to (weakly) create both the storm raven and the thunderwolf cavalary.

but what makes it silly is that i am atleast using the modern fluff, rather a mistake filled codex (our Wolf codex) and the old 2nd ed stuff (which i love, but it is becoming largely retconned as time goes by.)

 

the more recent material that directly deals with the size of Legions, the HH series, has the Legions being of massive size. Since this is the direction that GW has taken us in, wouldnt we be "diregarding" more and more fluff by ignoring what they are telling us?

 

WLK

[Legatus]

If we start to disregard more and more fluff then we will not really get anywhere, though you might finally be rid of me at least

this comment just seems silly, as i pointed out the many many holes that exist in the fluff of GW.

The comment is a result of the first suggestion that the Legion sizes which are being used in the Codex background should not be trusted followed by the second suggestion that the Second Founding information is not conclusive. Well, if the background we are being given cannot be used as reference then there is little point in debating it, as we can reach no conclusions at all.

 

 

the more recent material that directly deals with the size of Legions, the HH series, has the Legions being of massive size. Since this is the direction that GW has taken us in, wouldnt we be "diregarding" more and more fluff by ignoring what they are telling us?

The Codices are apparently not being taken in that direction, so it comes down to whether you prefer Black Library fluff or Codex fluff. The thing is that the Space Wolves Second Founding is not described in a Black Library source, as far as I know, only in a Codex source. You are referencing certain elements of the Codex fluff, but you prefer to disregard the Codex condition those elements are based on. The bit about the Space Wolves being only divided once comes from the same time (and is given on the same page) as the explanation that the former Space Marine Legions were about 10,000 warriors strong, though the Space Wolves vere not a very Large Legion. If you now change the background so that a Legion had 100,000 warriors on average, the whole situation drastically changes. Either the Legion would have been divided many more times, or (which seems to be the solution that works better) the Space Wolves suffered something like 95% casualties during the Heresy and the Scouring. You have to twist and turn to make the selected old fluff elements fit with the new fluff conditions.

 

 

There has also apparently been an internal discussion at the BL about Legion sizes, and a consensus was that 80,000 for the Raven Guard was a bit over the top. Not sure whether they will now change to 10,000 strong Legions instead, but I am curious what the most recent Black Library novels have to say on that matter.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

this debate gets better and better...because not only is GW inconsistent with its numbers, according to a single author, its inconsistent with its writers as well.

 

and trust me, i get that a mix of both sources is best, but when they disagree so badly (SW and most codex being passed down history, Raven's Flight, HH series being actual hard fact) there is going to be divisions.

 

Well, if the background we are being given cannot be used as reference then there is little point in debating it, as we can reach no conclusions at all.

that is probably going to be the only thing we agree on 100%.

 

WLK

[Silverwolf]

The biggest problem with all of these discussions is always the good 'ol GW "fluff creep". As each new writer gets his grubby paws on the fluff, he wants to make his own special little changes to it and "minor" alterations here and there. As time goes on, the old fluff starts to look very little like the new fluff.

 

And here our main issue stems from. Legatus, and everyone, is quoting fluff from all over the shop, new and old, but only quoting those bits that agree with their arguement. In a lot of cases someone could probably go grab a newer or older bit of fluff that contradicts each quote. The only reason I haven't bothered getting into a little quote war here is that I'm at work when on these forums, and frankly can't be bothered :pinch:.

 

Thanks to GW fluff creep, chances are if you have a particular opinion, you can probably find a bit of fluff somewhere (be it old or new), that will support your opinion.

 

Therefore WLK's point above is quite right. If you want to discuss an issue, you need to be using only the most up-to-date bits of fluff that have to do with the topic, as the old stuff has generally quite simply been overruled by the newer fluff. Going back and quoting 5 year old information (As I usually would ;)), simply is not valid, and is the reason these little arguements never get anywhere.