Wolf Companies...

[Grey Mage]

Or did they split them off one at a time, doling out resources to each of their successors as seemed needed?

There are the events refered to as "Founding", so I personally would assume it was all done in one draft, though probably not over night. After a Primarch had agreed to divide the Legion into Chapters he probably had some time untill he had to prsent the list of Chapters, their Commanders, Names and Colour Cheme.

But we know that some foundings have taken place over the course of a century or slightly more. Like the 16nth founding.

 

Its possible it was all at once, but we dont know for sure. Thats the problem with these discussions, theres alot of fluff, but its not comprehensive nor is it all in agreement with itself- such as the numbers of marines in a legion.

[Legatus]

And here our main issue stems from. Legatus, and everyone, is quoting fluff from all over the shop, new and old, but only quoting those bits that agree with their arguement.

I had adressed the changes that were made to the Space Wolves background about their Second Founding in the new Codex compared to the 2nd Edition version, but I am not sure whether it was in this thread or another one. Essentially, the 5th Edition description just was made a bit more ambiguous.

 

This are the different versions in a nutshell:

 

2nd: "The Space Wolves were only divided once because they never were a very large Legion. Perhaps the High Lords decided against spreading their gene-seed even further."

 

5th: "The Space Wolves were divided only once. Perhaps the high Lords decided against spreading their geneseed further. Or perhaps Leman Russ did not want to divide his Legion more than that."

 

They cut one "because" and added another "perhaps". My stance on the issue of old fluff is that if there had been a specific description in the past, then not mentioning it again does not change that. I would want a more specific contradiction for it be be considered a retcon. Like the Dark Angels Codex does not mention Jonson hidden inside the Rock anymore, and only refers to some secret. It is probably still supposed to be onson hidden inside the Rock.

 

So if older sources say "The Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters" (IA 1), then I would want a "The Space Wolves kept their Legion and only split off one Chapter", and not just a "the Space Wolves were divided only once, who knows..."

 

 

But we know that some foundings have taken place over the course of a century or slightly more. Like the 16nth founding.

IIRC according to the Index Astartes about the creation of Space Marines it says that it takes about 55 years to create enough new Marines from Scratch for a new Chapter, which might explain why a "Founding" might take a while. During the Second Founding they simply took all the Marines that were organised into Legions and split them up into Chapters.

[Decoy]

How about we narrow it down to this?

 

Fenrisians are a conflict-driven bunch. I'm willing to bet that for every two Wolf Lords, a Company leaves on their own devices, loyal to Russ and the Emperor, just upset with a bad decision or something.

 

Add to that maybe... every Wolf Lord, a Company gets lost ( as per the new Codex, those who ended up beyond the edge of the galaxy. Folk like them.).

 

Exclude Companies that are annihilated, because... ya know... they're dead.

 

So let's assume a Lord leads for... What, maybe 500 years? So a thousand years, a company leaves. Ten thousand years, ten companies leave. Ten Wolf Lords adds another ten Companies "Lost."

 

Also, I hate to do a headcount of Wolves without considering the 13th Company, because they're as active as any Company in the Wolves, even if they do it behind closed doors.

 

So presuming... What, let's say 15,000 in the legion, 13 Companies, a few more than 1000 Marines in the 13th Company.

 

1,000 plus 20 companies at an average of 165 per company, plus another 12 Companies at an average of 165 per company.

 

That adds up to around 6280 Space Wolves active, assuming that "Lost" Companies would continue to recruit, something that seems likely.

 

That's also taking Legatus' rather... loose... grip of Wolf organization into account, to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

Personally, I'm of the mind that there are significantly more Wolves per Company than folk are allowing, and I would also classify Blood Claws into "Non-battle-hardened warriors." However, this is all speculation, so... Meh.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i just found this quotation from the COllected Visions book, page 134 under the "Duality of the Space Marine Legions"

 

In many cases, the Primarch's armies also bore uncanny simularities to the Space Marine Legions from which they had been sundered man years previously. The warriors that comprised these armies would prove to be particularly suitable for recruitment into the ranks of Space Marines. In the ensuing years, many tens of thousands of new Space Marines were created from these men, and many of the Legions enjoyed a massive expansion of their fighting strength because of this.

 

If they gave "tens of thousands", wouldnt that cast more doubt on the "legions =10,000" theory?

 

WLK

[Legatus]

If they gave "tens of thousands", wouldnt that cast more doubt on the "legions =10,000" theory?

Since the Collected Visions artbook was the source for the BL's "100,000 per Legion" and even specifically describes Legions as being 100,000 warriors strong on average (with 250,000 for the Ultramarines), I would not exactly say that this partcular passage adds anything further to that side of the argument.

 

 

I'm willing to bet that for every two Wolf Lords, a Company leaves on their own devices, loyal to Russ and the Emperor, just upset with a bad decision or something.

I would be willing to take you up on that. Every third Lord "deserting" the Chapter is not a good ratio.

 

 

So let's assume a Lord leads for... What, maybe 500 years? So a thousand years, a company leaves. Ten thousand years, ten companies leave. Ten Wolf Lords adds another ten Companies "Lost."

Why would we add warriors that left and are no longer part of the Chapter as part of the Chapter? Are we counting "Marines with Space Wolves gene-seed" or are we counting the size of the Space Wolves Chapter?

 

 

So presuming... What, let's say 15,000 in the legion

Why 15,000? Where is that number based on? Is it supposed to represent an over sized "10,000 strong" Legion? What about fluff that said that the Space Wolves had never been a very large Legion? Or is it supposed to be a small "100,000 strong" Legion?

 

 

That's also taking Legatus' rather... loose... grip of Wolf organization into account, to give the benefit of the doubt.

And here I thought it was bad enough that I had to come here and enlighten you about your Chapter. :) I have seen a lot of strange ideas crop up after the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines and Codex Space Wolves. There are a lot of generalised statements in there, without the specifics from earlier sources (even if thes too included those generalised statements, so it is usually not new material that is meant to replace the old one, it is the old generalised material without the more detailed explanation of the old sources).

[OnlyInDeath]

And this is why I said let it be. but did anyone listen to OID? of course not. There is no fixed number. There has never been any fixed number. People seem to assume the wolf brothers halved the SW legion. Why? did the blood angels halve the legion for every successor chapter? There is no number given for the amount of lost companies out there (sorry legatus, but declaring them "deserters" is nothing but biased opinion. If you look at your fluff at more than a cursory glance, they are said to swear alliance to the Emperor and Russ 1st and 2nd, the wolf lord 3rd. Plus there are some great companies so far out that they are just rebuilt. that's hardly desertion

 

In the end, the numbers around the space wolves will forever be hazy until (if ever, probably not) GW decides to release an actual count. Until then, there will be 1000 threads with 1000 opinions on what happened

 

LET IT REST BROTHERS. drink some damn ale and let it be. Legatus, I have a bolter round for your forehead if you try to keep pithy argument going.

[Legatus]

Pfsh, next time some young pup comes declaring that "the Space Wolves didn't actually become a Chapter during the Second Founding but stayed a Legion" I will be there. ;)