Night Lords companies

[Marshal Traben]

A question:

How many companies did the NL's have in the Great Crusade and in the Horus Heresy and what was their size?

[Legatus]

There is no official information on that. Though there have been contradicting sources refering to 100,000 strong Legions during the Great Crusade and oters to 10,000 strong Legions, the Horus Heresy novels now seem to go more with the 10,000 strong numbers. In the Novel "Soul Hunter" Aaron Dembski-Bowden went with the regular 100 strong Companies for Night Lords (though they may have had them grouped into 10 companies for one "Great Company" or "Chapter" as other Legions had), where other Horus Heresy authors chose differently sized Company sizes IIRC.

So if the Night Lords were an average sized Legion, and if they had Companies of 100 men, then they would have had about 100 Companies.

[Marshal Traben]

Did they have any specific markings to indicate company or squad? :huh:

[Dark Mechanicum]

We have no idea so far. I think Soul Hunter might have something for 10th company.

[Phoebus]

Did they have any specific markings to indicate company or squad? :huh:

In "Soul Hunter"

the Night Lords of the 10th Company are forced to scavenge armor from their dead brethren and Loyalist Astartes alike. Their only real markings are Legion-specific ones and personal heraldry.

 

[Marshal Traben]

I asked these questions, because i might build a Night Lords company.

[Marshal Traben]

Did they have any specific markings to indicate company or squad? :lol:

In "Soul Hunter"

the Night Lords of the 10th Company are forced to scavenge armor from their dead brethren and Loyalist Astartes alike. Their only real markings are Legion-specific ones and personal heraldry.

 

 

I've read the book. It was very good. :P

[talos402000]

The only hard legion numbers we have are the Raven Guard's, they hit Isstvan with 97,000 Marines and left with less than 4,000 (after being rescued by the Imperial Army). So far the average number seems to be around a hundred-thousand.

[Marshal Traben]

The only hard legion numbers we have are the Raven Guard's, they hit Isstvan with 97,000 Marines and left with less than 4,000 (after being rescued by the Imperial Army). So far the average number seems to be around a hundred-thousand.

 

In Raven's Flight

The Raven Guard's numbers were said to be around 80,000 Astartes

 

[malika666]

That;s odd, I remember the older fluff mentioning that only a handful (5 or something) marines, including Corax survived the Drop Site Massacre...

[Legatus]

2nd to 5th Edition background has usually operated with the 10,000 strong Legions, with the odd exception. In particular the Index Astartes Iron Warrios mentions that during the Great Crusade they have had as many as 12 Grand Companies of a thosand warriors each. Some Black Library material (mostly the Collected Visions artbooks and some Horus heresy novels) speak of 100,000 strong Legions, but they seem to be changing to 10,000 numbers now IIRC.

[Ashe Darke]

10,000 seems about right. In False Gods when they are heading towards the crashed ship on Davin's moon it talks about Torgaddon and Loken leading ~3,000 marines between them if I remember correctly. This implies over 60 companies at 100,000 assuming they all are the same size, which just sounds crazy. The Death Guard would have had 14,000 strong companies as well had it been that way. No, just no.

 

If you think about the fleets as well they would be far too small for 100,000 marines to be housed. I know they don't always travel together and some travel as spinters but even so 50% of 100,000 is still 45,000 more marines than if it was a 10,000 strong legion split in two.

[Vodunius]

It should be noted that there are three takes on the issue not two: a hundred thousand, ten thousand, and tens of thousands. a lot of people prefer to ignore the plural in the case of the latter and count is evidence of 10k exactly, even though the plural means its at least twice that.

 

This implies over 60 companies at 100,000 assuming they all are the same size, which just sounds crazy.

 

Why so? Your location says your in Gloucester, the Gloucestershire Regiment had 18 battalions during the First World War - which I imagine would have worked out as around 60 companies.

 

If you think about the fleets as well they would be far too small for 100,000 marines to be housed.

I don't think so, in order to reach a million worlds the Imperium would have been adding at least 1,000* worlds a year, even if 90% of those worlds are brought to compliance without a single shot being fired the fleet assets required would dwarf any requirements of the Astartes.

 

* and thats based on the old fluff of a 1,000 year Great Crusade, modern (and RT as well I believe) fluff puts it at 200 years, which would mean 5000 worlds a year.

[Ashe Darke]

Look at how many companies we've seen so in the HH books. The Luna Wolves have a 25th Company but I can't remember the guy who led them. The next highest number I remember the character of is 19. 1-25 might not even be full. Also being Horus's legion it wouldn't be surprising if their legion consisted of more marines than some of the lesser legions. Assuming 1500 marines per Company (based on what I said earlier) that's at least 37,500 marines which sounds about right for the one of the biggest and most successful legions. This takes into account the tens of thousands factor you mention. This is also closer to 10,000 than it is to 100,000.

 

The Emperor's Children have up to 18 at least but I can't remember anything on how big their companies were. 70% smaller than the Luna Wolves doesn't sound like a small legion to me or at least deserving of the label small. So there might be more than 25 for the Luna Wolves but they've not been mentioned.

 

The only other ones I can remember are Death Guard have 7 companies and Thousand Sons have 9. Lets take the Thousand Sons as an example, I use 10,000 as that is the average as I don't know their exact number. When Prospero got attacked ~1000 survived. That's like 9,000 were killed which sounds about right. Then using 100,000 as an example that's 99,000 dead. Maybe it's just how it was written but I didn't get the impression 99,000 ish TS died in that battle.

 

As for a million Imperial worlds that's assuming there wasn't any exaggeration going on by the writer to give the impression of vastness. Also that they were at a million worlds at the end of the crusade as I'm pretty sure they went off claiming planets again afterwards. The million worlds comment could be on about the current state of the Imperium, unless of course your source states that it was at the end of crusade. I imagine a fair few are planets that could be brought into compliance at the same time because of their proximity so it's not like months of travel and more months of fighting for each planet. Some planets welcomed the Imperium as well making the whole thing quicker. That aside the legions still tended to be in no more than 2-3 splinter fleets based on what we've seen so fact there are 10 times as many marines probably doesn't help spread their coverage as much as you think. It just meant they turned up with more muscle.

 

The lack of details just makes this whole thing very confusing and conflicting.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

all i am going to say is that (since these debates mainly go nowhere)in Raven's Flight, Corax brings 80,000 Raven Guard to the Dropsite Massacre. It is also said in the audio book that the RG were one of the smaller Legions, as they had little population to add to the Terran Marines. (which is why the RG use more "tactical" use of their men)

 

WLK

[Vodunius]

I'm pretty sure they went off claiming planets again afterwards. The million worlds comment could be on about the current state of the Imperium, unless of course your source states that it was at the end of crusade.

 

Source 1: generic blurb at the start of the Horus Heresy novels:

"The dawn of a new age of supremacy for humanity beckons.

Gleaming citadels of marble and gold celebrate the many victories of the Emperor. Triumphs are raised on a million worlds to record the epic deeds of his most powerful and deadly warriors."

 

Source 2: Space Marine 1st edition (which was set during the Heresy & Scouring) rulebook page 7

"While civil wars raged on a million worlds, Horus struck at Terra"

 

The Horus Heresy was far larger than the half dozen notable Astartes vs Astartes battles, countless thousands of worlds were destroyed by one side or the other or else were simply lost because all record of them was destroyed during the Siege of Terra. The same happened again during the Age of Apostasy, the effect being that despite the countless thousands of worlds claimed since the Heresy the Imperium is still basically the same size.. assuming you discount the fluff that claimed the Imperium had two million worlds at the time of the Heresy (actually that would fit with both sources 1 & 2 - since not every world would have a civil war and presumably not every world would have a triumph either)

[Phoebus]

Different Legions, different sizes.

 

"A Thousand Sons" pretty much is the death-knell of the idea that Legions numbered 10,000 or so. IIRC, it pretty much flat-out states that the Thousand Sons--one of the smallest Legions, mind you--numbered approximately 9,000 Astartes. I'll double-check that and edit as needed, of course.

 

There are other references, as well, that reinforce this. "Call of the Lion" makes mention of the Dark Angels receiving tens of thousands of reinforcements after their Primarch was found. In "Fallen Angels", Luther outlines the numbers of Astartes his recruitment and training efforts accrue, and they indicate significant numbers as well.

 

We should also remember that the Legions did not always fight as homogeneous forces. "Galaxy in Flames" would indicate that the entirety of the Sons of Horus were present, but "Fallen Angels" shows this was not the case. How many other task forces were around the Galaxy doing Horus' work? This might go some way toward explaining why you only hear of 25 Companies mentioned. Perhaps many others were with other Expeditionary Fleets.

 

Similarly, "Fulgrim" shows us that only the Veterans of the Iron Hands were present for the actual fighting of Isstvan V; it also reminds us that the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters had culled, on average, a third of their number (the Loyalists) on Isstvan III, not to mention the losses they incurred in seeing them killed off.

[Ashe Darke]

I'm pretty sure they went off claiming planets again afterwards. The million worlds comment could be on about the current state of the Imperium, unless of course your source states that it was at the end of crusade.

 

Source 1: generic blurb at the start of the Horus Heresy novels:

"The dawn of a new age of supremacy for humanity beckons.

Gleaming citadels of marble and gold celebrate the many victories of the Emperor. Triumphs are raised on a million worlds to record the epic deeds of his most powerful and deadly warriors."

 

Source 2: Space Marine 1st edition (which was set during the Heresy & Scouring) rulebook page 7

"While civil wars raged on a million worlds, Horus struck at Terra"

 

The Horus Heresy was far larger than the half dozen notable Astartes vs Astartes battles, countless thousands of worlds were destroyed by one side or the other or else were simply lost because all record of them was destroyed during the Siege of Terra. The same happened again during the Age of Apostasy, the effect being that despite the countless thousands of worlds claimed since the Heresy the Imperium is still basically the same size.. assuming you discount the fluff that claimed the Imperium had two million worlds at the time of the Heresy (actually that would fit with both sources 1 & 2 - since not every world would have a civil war and presumably not every world would have a triumph either)

Cool cool, fair enough ;)

[Legatus]

How 10,000 strong Legions can take a million worlds:

 

We have 1,000,000 worlds that need to be conquered.

 

If we assume that about half of the worlds accepted to join the Imperium without a fight then only 500,000 remain that need to be conquered.

 

If we assume that the Space Marines did not need to personally take every single world and that the Imperial Army together with Titan Legions and Knights was able to take worlds without Marines, and that the Marines were only responsible for half of the worlds (which still makes them at merely 200,000 men the most important fighting force of the Imperium), then the Marines only need to conquer 250,000 worlds.

 

Spread over a time frame of 200 years, the Legions need to take 1,250 worlds per year. That is 62.5 worlds per Legion.

 

The Legions were sub-divided into Great Companies or Chapters, and we know that a single Chapter is entirely capable to take a world (and during the crusades the Astartes were closely cooperating with Army and Navy). So if a 10,000 strong Legion was divided into 10 Chapters of 1,000 men, each Chapter would have to conquer approximately 6.25 worlds per year.

 

If you remove the prerequisite that the Marines were only responsible for 50% of the worlds that need to be conquered, each Chapter would be sesponsible for 12.5 worlds per year.

 

12.5 seems to be difficult for 1,000 Marines. But if the Legions on the other hand would have been 100,000 in size, that means each 1,000 strong Chapter would have had to take merely 1.25 worlds per year, which on the contrary seems like nothing. 60 per Legion (6 per Chapter) per year seems like a reasoable figure.

[Ashe Darke]

I'm trying to remember how many ships were in Horus's fleet, I don't think there were that many and for approximately 100,000 marines to be housed in those ships, with their section of the Imperial Army, remembrancers, Navy crew, titans and their crew + maintenance team plus god knows who else, I don't know if they will all fit on. Anyone with fleet knowledge know the capacity of a ship like the Vengeful Spirit?

[Phoebus]

Thing is, though, we have plenty of references to the fact that Horus' fleet was not the only fleet containing Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. It's not as if we have to fit 100,000+ Astartes in just the number of ships we see in "Horus Rising", "False Gods", "Galaxy in Flames" and "Fulgrim".

 

At any rate, we now know the Legions (with one exception, possibly a couple other) didn't number only 10,000 (or so) Astartes. Furthermore, if a 1 world/year conquest rate for each Chapter sounds rather rapid, consider the vagaries of Warp travel (almost making time a relative thing) and add to it the problems involved with travelling to a place for which the maps might be unreliable or even non-existent. Heck, in "Call of the Lion", Astelan's Chapter goes years without finding a single world to bring into compliance--and he wasn't even complaining about the Warp. It would appear sheer distance and lack of targets could also make an "easy average" anything but. :rolleyes:

[Burias-Drak'shal]

I have always taken that when referring to companys in pre hersey related fluff that the word (Great)company and chapter were interchangeable. I cant remember where I saw this, but I remember reading something along those lines.

[Vodunius]

I have always taken that when referring to companys in pre hersey related fluff that the word (Great)company and chapter were interchangeable. I cant remember where I saw this, but I remember reading something along those lines.

 

The Horus Heresy artbooks (not sure which, think it was 2nd):

Company: 100 men commanded by a Captain

Battalion: 5 companies commanded by a Lieutenant-Commander

Regiment: 2 Battalions commanded by a Commander

With the term regiment being changed to Chapter, Great Company, Grand Company, Wing etc depending on the Legion.

 

I've just noticed that chapter 3 of Horus Rising says:

"At that time, according to War Council logs, there were four thousand two hundred and eighty-seven primary expedition fleets engaged upon the business of the crusade, as well as sixty thousand odd secondary deployment groups involved in compliance or occupation endeavours, with a further three hundred and seventy-two primary expeditions in regroup and refit, or resupplying as they awaited new tasking orders."

 

If only half of all primary fleets had an Astartes contingent then the average fleet would have 46 Astartes with 10k legions, compared to 460 with 100k legions.

[Ashe Darke]

Maybe this is to do with the whole 'perspective from which it was written'. The stuff that is set pre-heresy states 100,000 as it's a kinda first hand account where as the stuff that says 10,000 isn't it all recent and from codexes? Well the codexes are a kind of Imperial study on that race and written from a 41k perspective, so where information on the crusades is concerned it's probably been lost over time and so 10,000 is their guessing based on what they know.

 

That or someone messed up.

[Marshal Traben]

I think my army will be the Night Lords 30th Company. The Captain will be a Terran born Astartes.