Shield of Sanguinius/Vehicles

[Grey Mage]

I don't think I understand your point, that paragraph fairly appears plain 'If X then Y' to me. It feels like we are perhaps just referring back to the distinction between having and using again. The rules don't allow for vehicles to use/roll saves unless they are obscured. The special Obscured status isn't one of many instances where a vehicle is permitted to roll a cover save and discard a hit if successful. It's the only instance. Without being obscured, your vehicles cannot roll saves.

 

If you can show otherwise, please do so.

 

Sure, Paragraph 1 of vehicles and cover notes that there are 3 exceptions to the normal cover rules used for by all unit types when it comes to vehicles.

 

* 50% of the vehicle must be hidden from the firer.

* They cannot use area terrain.

* They cannot go to ground.

 

However any normal infantry unit would instead need to:

 

*Have intervening models

*Be in area terrain

*have gone to ground

*have 50% or more of the unit out of LOS to the firer

 

But we know for a fact that they gain this cover save granted by shield of Sanguinius- though no mention of it is in the BRB. Since psychic powers are not listed as an exception to when a vehicle can gain a cover save then we must allow it, as the vehicle is affect by the power due to its definition as a "unit".

 

Then we go to the vehicle rules, and note that the header is actually "Vehicles and Cover" while obscured targets is a subheader. We find alot out about oscured targets... and then we find out what happens when a vehicle makes its cover save- as noted before, you discard the hit and no roll on the damage table is made.

 

This is pretty elementary right here.

 

The problem with your summary is that part 5 is actually 2 steps:

5a) check to see if the vehicle has a cover save via being obscured or any other sources.

5b) roll said cover save, if successful discard the hit, if not proceed to step 6.

[Mezkh]

I don't think I understand your point, that paragraph fairly appears plain 'If X then Y' to me. It feels like we are perhaps just referring back to the distinction between having and using again. The rules don't allow for vehicles to use/roll saves unless they are obscured. The special Obscured status isn't one of many instances where a vehicle is permitted to roll a cover save and discard a hit if successful. It's the only instance. Without being obscured, your vehicles cannot roll saves.

 

If you can show otherwise, please do so.

 

Sure, Paragraph 1 of vehicles and cover notes that there are 3 exceptions to the normal cover rules used for by all unit types when it comes to vehicles.

 

* 50% of the vehicle must be hidden from the firer.

* They cannot use area terrain.

* They cannot go to ground.

 

However any normal infantry unit would instead need to:

 

*Have intervening models

*Be in area terrain

*have gone to ground

*have 50% or more of the unit out of LOS to the firer

 

But we know for a fact that they gain this cover save granted by shield of Sanguinius- though no mention of it is in the BRB. Since psychic powers are not listed as an exception to when a vehicle can gain a cover save then we must allow it, as the vehicle is affect by the power due to its definition as a "unit".

 

Then we go to the vehicle rules, and note that the header is actually "Vehicles and Cover" while obscured targets is a subheader. We find alot out about oscured targets... and then we find out what happens when a vehicle makes its cover save- as noted before, you discard the hit and no roll on the damage table is made.

 

This is pretty elementary right here.

 

The problem with your summary is that part 5 is actually 2 steps:

5a) check to see if the vehicle has a cover save via being obscured or any other sources.

5b) roll said cover save, if successful discard the hit, if not proceed to step 6.

 

I think you are reading what you want the rules to say rather than what they actually say.

 

The book states,

 

* 50% of the vehicle must be hidden from the firer. It then counts as obscured. This is a special defined status for vehicles in the context of the game. You could say for practical purposes 'Obscured' basically means a vehicle is benefiting from a special type of cover.

* They cannot use area terrain to become obscured.

* They cannot go to ground.

 

Importantly, the book then states:

If the target is obscured, and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it.

 

You are ignoring the requirement 'if the target is obscured'. Without this requirement fulfilled, you are not given permission to roll a cover save for a vehicle, even if you had a cover save from some other type of means like SoS. It doesn't have the required obscured status to make the roll.

 

Because the book defines a special obscured status that allows vehicles to roll cover saves, rules and wargear intended to grant this status to vehicles in other ways will reference it. See the rules for Ork Kustom Force field, Skimmers moving fast, smoke launchers, and disruption pods as examples of this. All reference the obscured status that enables the roll of a save.

 

Because Shield of Sanguinius doesn't grant vehicles the special obscured status, it is not intended that vehicles are able to roll the cover save granted by the rule.

[Brother Casman]

/snip

 

Because Shield of Sanguinius doesn't grant vehicles the special obscured status, it is not intended that vehicles are able to roll the cover save granted by the rule.

 

So, vehicles get a cover save that they cannot use? What then, logically, is the difference between a cover save one cannot use and no cover save at all? It would seem that there is no difference - if you cannot use a cover save, then you don't have one.

 

So SoS works like this:

A: All units in 6 inches get a cover save

B: Vehicles aren't obscured, so they lose the cover save, because they cannot use it

C: However, Vehicles are units, so they get a cover save (and it goes around and around, ad infinitum)

 

Point B, then, contradicts point A - leading us into a infinite loop of gaining and losing a cover save. Therefore, I think we can reject the premise that vehicles get a cover save that they cannot use - it would require vehicles to both have and not have a cover save, which is impossible. The simpler solution, then, is vehicles gain a cover save and they can use it.

[Mezkh]

/snip

 

Because Shield of Sanguinius doesn't grant vehicles the special obscured status, it is not intended that vehicles are able to roll the cover save granted by the rule.

 

So, vehicles get a cover save that they cannot use? What then, logically, is the difference between a cover save one cannot use and no cover save at all? It would seem that there is no difference - if you cannot use a cover save, then you don't have one.

 

So SoS works like this:

A: All units in 6 inches get a cover save

B: Vehicles aren't obscured, so they lose the cover save, because they cannot use it

C: However, Vehicles are units, so they get a cover save (and it goes around and around, ad infinitum)

 

Point B, then, contradicts point A - leading us into a infinite loop of gaining and losing a cover save. Therefore, I think we can reject the premise that vehicles get a cover save that they cannot use - it would require vehicles to both have and not have a cover save, which is impossible. The simpler solution, then, is vehicles gain a cover save and they can use it.

 

You don't understand the difference between having something and using something? Or in this case, not being permitted to use? They are different verbs with different applicable definitions.

 

I can have a gun in a locker.

I am not permitted to use the gun in a public area.

If I open the locker, the gun will be gone?

 

There is no infinite loop in play here. It's treated very simply.

 

The vehicles have a cover save, because all units within 6" get one.

The vehicles cannot use it, because only obscured vehicles are allowed to use cover saves.

Play continues.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I think you are reading what you want the rules to say rather than what they actually say.

 

I think that's going around...

 

 

The vehicle is a unit. All units are granted cover saves. You're saying a vehicle can only take a cover save if it's obscured. But this power says that it gets a cover save anyway. It sounds like you're reading what you want the rules to say rather than what they actually say.

 

Clearly this is open to interpretation.. just like everything else. However, it just seems silly to say that the sky is more of a greenish-purple than blue.

[Isryion]

This discussion has reached ridiculous proportion.

 

Does it make sense to write a rule in SoS, using the word "units" and intend not to include vehicles?

 

In order for Mezkh's theory to stand, the rule author would have had to think, "Hmmm...I don't want to include vehicles in this. Does this sentence make it clear? Of course it does! Players will clearly note the lack of the word 'obscure' in the rule. They will then reference p. 62 of the BRB and realize that since the vehicle is not obscured, they get a cover save but can't actually use it. I obviously don't need to reference anything else." It's so convoluted it's not even funny. As Morticon mentioned, if you followed Occam's Razor, this wouldn't be an issue. Simply, what makes the most sense? As has been pointed out many times, there is a simple answer and there is a completely convoluted answer.

 

These awful "I have a gun" examples are really silly considering the fact that this is a game and real life doesn't apply. Basic game design would say that if you don't want a rule to apply you don't give it the rule at all.

[thade]

My favorite point in this entire debacle is that of the Kustom Force Field (which I *hate*). I'm excited to now have one myself. :lol:

 

All of the rules in the Vehicle chapter with regards to cover are all dealing with terrain pieces and/or other models. When a psychic power confers a cover save, it's not doing so because there's terrain that it's magically making up. It is confering a cover save, RAW.

 

For those who need RAI as well, consider this. The power is literally forming a force field. So, there is your "obscurring" terrain, if you feel the need.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

All the relevant quotes to settle this issue are already present in this topic. It all boils down to the language and intent of the rules related to Obscured vehicles as being a mandatory condition in all cases before they can benefit from a cover save.

 

The entire concept of cover in the BRB deals with the relationship of the placement of models on the table – both unit & terrain models. This is spelled out specifically for infantry & vehicles as they are treated differently. In all cases, before a unit is able to claim cover it must meet certain conditions based on the other models around it. Failing these conditions, no cover save is allowed.

 

If a vehicle meets the stated requirements it is considered, Obscured and gets the 4+ save. This Obscured condition can also be achieved via certain wargear, etc.

 

The psychic power omits the need for intervening models or wargear and imparts the cover save based on a psychic test instead. Pass the psychic test = all units within 6” get a 5+ cover save. No other conditions are mentioned as they aren’t necessary. All such conditional rules are replaced by the use psychic power, for both infantry and vehicles alike.

 

As Brother Jazzman pointed out to me so aptly in another post, BA Furioso Dreads can be upgraded to become Librarian dreadnoughts. The Shield of Sanguinius rule states, “The Librarian and any unit within 6” receive a 5+ cover save until the end of the phase.” In this case, the Librarian is the vehicle. If it can work for a Librarian Dread – it can work for any vehicle.

 

That closes this debate as far as I’m concerned. -OMG

[DuncanSpence]

Okay, had a read up and here's my take on it.

 

Don't like the 'If the target is obscured...' phrase? Ignore that paragraph and look at the next one.

 

If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a 4+ cover save unless otherwise specified in the Codex.

- this paragraph doesn't say that the vehicle becomes obscured or is treated as obscured, just that it gets a Cover Save. So here is a specific statement that you can have a Cover Save without being obscured.

 

So as I'm reading it, being obscured is one way in which a vehicle can obtain a cover save, but it is not the only way, and vehicles can benefit from SoS as it specifically states that all units get a Cover Save. If there are any other rules which rely on the word *obscured* then SoS doesn't help in the way that KFF or Smoke Launchers would.

 

BTW for those who say Codex does not trump BRB, last sentence in the Smoke Launchers box.

 

...As normal, the rules in the Codex take precedence

[Grey Mage]

I have, your just ignoring it.

 

The reasoning is fairly straight forward- Codex>BRB.

 

The codex provides a cover save. On this we are agreed.

 

The BRB tells us what happens when you pass a cover save for a vehicle.

 

Where your problem is would be that you read the second paragraph first sentence- wich says when a vehicle makes a cover save- but seem to think the second sentence must be intrinsic to the first when it says what happens when you pass that save.

 

Thats a logical fallacy. The second sentence

If the save is passed, the hit is discarded and no roll is made on the Vehicle Damage table.

does not require the first sentence to function. This is the only part of the rules in the BRB we need in order to use Shield of Sanguinius or Stormcaller, or Force Dome.

 

[importantly, the book then states:

If the target is obscured, and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it.

 

You are ignoring the requirement 'if the target is obscured'. Without this requirement fulfilled, you are not given permission to roll a cover save for a vehicle, even if you had a cover save from some other type of means like SoS. It doesn't have the required obscured status to make the roll.

Im not ignoring a darn thing. You are correct- IF the target is obscured then it does get a cover save. There is NOTHING in this book that states it MUST be obscured to roll a cover save. Just because one thing grants a bonus doesnt mean another thing cant grant that bonus, and the BRB has nothing at all to say on the issue of psychic powers being unable to grant a cover save to a vehicle.

[Sparhawk]

I never thought about using Force Dome for my vehicles....I may have to give that a whirl :D

[Mezkh]

There is NOTHING in this book that states it MUST be obscured to roll a cover save.

 

It's a permissive ruleset. The only permission we are given to roll a save is when a vehicle is obscured. Therefore, on the facts, we must be obscured to roll a cover save for a vehicle.

 

Do you understand what a permissive ruleset is?

 

 

Okay, had a read up and here's my take on it.

 

If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a 4+ cover save unless otherwise specified in the Codex.

-

this paragraph doesn't say that the vehicle becomes obscured or is treated as obscured, just that it gets a Cover Save. So here is a specific statement that you can have a Cover Save without being obscured.

 

 

I've highlighted what stands out as wrong here? :o

This paragraph states the value of a save for obscured status recieved from wargear/special rule. It doesn't impart cover saves to non-obscured vehicle models, or give permission for non obscured vehicle models to take saves.

 

 

As Brother Jazzman pointed out to me so aptly in another post, BA Furioso Dreads can be upgraded to become Librarian dreadnoughts. The Shield of Sanguinius rule states, “The Librarian and any unit within 6” receive a 5+ cover save until the end of the phase.” In this case, the Librarian is the vehicle. If it can work for a Librarian Dread – it can work for any vehicle.

 

That closes this debate as far as I’m concerned. -OMG

 

If a librarian dread uses the power (or Librarian in a rhino), all units within 6" gain the save. Of course it's fairly pointless to use it if there are no friendly units within 6", as the Librarian Dreadnought/Rhino won't be able to take the save if damaged. So it's as useful as a Librarian on his own in terminator armour casting the save - he has it, but it's not going to affect gameplay.

 

This doesn't mean the rule is broken of course, because there are plenty of situations where casting it is useful. You make of it what you will.

 

 

This discussion has reached ridiculous proportion.

 

Does it make sense to write a rule in SoS, using the word "units" and intend not to include vehicles?

 

Yes? Otherwise what is the point of creating a distinction between obscured and unobscured?

 

In order for Mezkh's theory to stand, the rule author would have had to think, "Hmmm...I don't want to include vehicles in this. Does this sentence make it clear? Of course it does! Players will clearly note the lack of the word 'obscure' in the rule. They will then reference p. 62 of the BRB and realize that since the vehicle is not obscured, they get a cover save but can't actually use it. I obviously don't need to reference anything else." It's so convoluted it's not even funny.

 

I'm sorry, do you find it to difficult to reference the rulebook when playing and something unusual comes up?

It's not rocket science we're dealing with here. Let's not dumb down the game any further.

 

- Shield gives all units 5+ cover saves - Codex

- Only obscured vehicles use cover saves - BRB

 

There is no override as one doesn't contradict the other.

 

You know I really think the problem here is the classic chinese whispers one. Somewhere down the line, 'Obscured vehicles roll cover saves' got changed to 'Vehicles roll cover saves'. And we end up with this massive misinterpretaton when something like SoS/Stormcaller comes out as to how powerful the power is.

 

---------

 

I know I've said this before now but this really enough, time to wait on a FAQ. I'm just stating the same thing over and over and the thread is getting insulting. Between this and the Deepstriking Decent of Angels Land Raiders, it's obvious when writing their rules GW needs to hedge everything they write to absolutely slam the door on those trying to gain that something extra, even if it involves a lot of repeating.

[Isiah]

You're right Mezkh it is getting insulting.

 

Let's try to keep personal snipes out of this discussion shall we, or this one gets closed. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you can ride roughshod over them... please take this on board my friend.

 

Cheers

I

[Ashe Darke]

While apparently being a permissive ruleset it is also only a guideline as the book says itself on page 2 and there is wiggle room for things like this.

[Grey Mage]

There is NOTHING in this book that states it MUST be obscured to roll a cover save.

 

It's a permissive ruleset. The only permission we are given to roll a save is when a vehicle is obscured. Therefore, on the facts, we must be obscured to roll a cover save for a vehicle.

 

Do you understand what a permissive ruleset is?

 

I do. That is one instance we are given permission. If you are obscured you get a cover save, wich varies in strength by the type of cover granted.

 

We are also given this by the psychic power, wich does exactly what it says- if the unit, in this case a vehicle unit, is within 6" of the caster then they have a 5+ cover save to roll.

 

In the BRB the sentence after the permission is given tells us what happens if we succeed on the die roll we were granted.

 

So, the power gives us the permission to use a cover save if we meet ITS prerequisites, wich are only 1) the librarian has passed a psychic test 2) its a unit and 3) its within 6" of the psycker who passed the test.

 

This is very simple.

 

IF you want to say "only a obscured vehicle may have a cover save" then please show me where it states in the BRB that. Or states that a psychic power cannot grant the unit the ability to roll one.

 

Those bullets in the vehicle section under "Vehicles and Coversaves" are noted as changes to how cover saves normally work.

 

To further reiterate- the rule does not say "a vehicle may only take a cover save when it is obscured" it says "a vehicle may take a cover save if it is obscured" Having permission to drive if your on your way to work does not keep you from getting permission to drive on your way to lunch.

 

Normally a unit affected by this psychic power will get a cover save. Thus since there is NO exception to this in the vehicles 3 bullets we MUST allow it to take a cover save.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

If a librarian dread uses the power (or Librarian in a rhino), all units within 6" gain the save. Of course it's fairly pointless to use it if there are no friendly units within 6", as the Librarian Dreadnought/Rhino won't be able to take the save if damaged. So it's as useful as a Librarian on his own in terminator armour casting the save - he has it, but it's not going to affect gameplay.

So you are arguing that a Librarian Dread who uses this power w/o any other units around, i.e. so only he could possibly benefit from it, would not get a 5+ cover save?

 

Despite the phrase in the codex which states, "The Librarian [...] receive(s) a 5+ cover save."???

 

I'm sorry but beyond anyone's stretch of what is RAW, RAI, permissive, restrictive, implied or inferred, that rule says what it says = The Dread gets the save. If one vehicle gets the save then it's strongly implied that all others do too, confirmed by the use of the term, "unit" in the same rule.

 

Seems very straight forward to me.

 

-OMG

[Skalver]

From the Infantry rules on page 21 of the rulebook

 

When are models in cover?

 

When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer the target model is in cover.

 

From the Vehicle rules on page 62:

 

If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it.

 

I stated this on page 1 of this thread and someone else brought it up again but many seem to be conveniently ignoring it.

 

So I have two questions for people who think vehicles don't get the save.

 

1. Why does being obscured not matter for infantry but does matter for vehicles when both rulesets state the model must be obscured to be in cover?

 

2. Why is it so hard to imagine that the golden barrier conjured by the librarian is obscuring the vehicles? The power conjurs a "shimmering golden barrier" to hide the models. The conjured barrier that the power creates is what is hiding the models. It just doesn't exist on the table because it is conjured by a psychic power. Is it too much to ask that people just imagine it? Would you refuse to remove shooting casualties because they were killed by imaginary bolts if you would refuse to grant a cover save for imaginary cover? Do people have so little imagination that they need someone to craft little golden barriers to place on the table as a visual aid before they can accept the cover save?

 

 

Finally, I noticed that the wording for stormcaller says 'he and all friendly squads within 6" ...' while Shield of Sanguinius says 'The librarian and any unit within 6" ...'. Does the wording of the Storm Caller power exclude vehicles, is squad just a synonym for unit or do the words have different meanings within the rules.

[Sparhawk]

I've said it before but that passage is what makes RAI into RAW.

 

One of the things people seem to forget is that in a game like this there are going to be situations that cannot be explicitly covered in the rules, or areas where the rules offer an ability to interpret the intent. I'm not sure if I'm alone here but I remember many a game of DND that would come down to a group/DM decision on how a certain rule or mixture of rules would work. Now in DND this is never really a problem as the game is collaborative as opposed to competitive, so the interpretation never really puts anyone at an unfair disadvantage except against the DM, or as we liked to call him Our Brutal Taskmaster.

 

I know I've said this before now but this really enough, time to wait on a FAQ. I'm just stating the same thing over and over and the thread is getting insulting. Between this and the Deepstriking Decent of Angels Land Raiders, it's obvious when writing their rules GW needs to hedge everything they write to absolutely slam the door on those trying to gain that something extra, even if it involves a lot of repeating.

 

As we have agreed that this game uses a permissive rules set then I think it only fair that we be provided with exactly what you have stated above, a rulebook/power that very clearly outlines the in-game affects and what can and cannot be affected by the aforementioned rule. It may seem overly repetitious but frankly it's not that I can't go back a reference the BRB for these rules it's more that I shouldn't have to consult them to understand the way a power works. It should be clearly spelled out how the ability works in the power and if the only way to deny that something doesn't work the way it seems to work upon basic inspection is to quote a sentence from the BRB then I think we're missing the point of the codex.

 

All I'm getting at is that the BRB is there to tell me basic game mechanics that apply to any army whereas the codex is there to give me specifics on how my army plays compared to those rules. As I said earlier how does Bjorn get to use his invulnerable save? There is no mechanic in the BRB for a vehicle with an invulnerable save so is he able to use it?

[Grey Mage]

But Sparhawk, this one IS explicity covered in the rules.

[Sparhawk]

Oh I agree 100% GM most of that reply was to the point about GW's rulebooks being written such that a rules intent is clear.

 

I guess I got a little too verbose there ;)

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, you had me lost, but upon rereading it I see where you were going. *sighs* Sorry, doing taxes today for several people and my brain is weary.

[Mezkh]

So, the power gives us the permission to use a cover save if we meet ITS prerequisites, wich are only 1) the librarian has passed a psychic test 2) its a unit and 3) its within 6" of the psycker who passed the test.

 

This is very simple.

 

Not the case it seems. Have VS Use again. You're reading far too much extra text or meaning into the power description that isn't there.

 

The power simply gives a save, it doesn't state when and how the save it used.

 

It bears repeating,

 

The power gives a save, it doesn't state when and how the save it used.

 

All the rules for 'when' and 'how' for cover saves are contained in the BRB.

Refering to the BRB, this is fine for most units as it tells us how and when to roll saves for infantry for the prevention of wounds. But for vehicle units, the only rules for rolling a cover save for a vehicle require a specific obscured status, which is not conferred by the power. Therefore, no rolling of saves for vehicle units.

 

 

If a librarian dread uses the power (or Librarian in a rhino), all units within 6" gain the save. Of course it's fairly pointless to use it if there are no friendly units within 6", as the Librarian Dreadnought/Rhino won't be able to take the save if damaged. So it's as useful as a Librarian on his own in terminator armour casting the save - he has it, but it's not going to affect gameplay.

So you are arguing that a Librarian Dread who uses this power w/o any other units around, i.e. so only he could possibly benefit from it, would not get a 5+ cover save?

 

No, I have never argued that he wouldn't get one. I've always argued he can't USE the cover save.

 

Despite the phrase in the codex which states, "The Librarian [...] receive(s) a 5+ cover save."???

 

I'm sorry but beyond anyone's stretch of what is RAW, RAI, permissive, restrictive, implied or inferred, that rule says what it says = The Dread gets the save. If one vehicle gets the save then it's strongly implied that all others do too, confirmed by the use of the term, "unit" in the same rule.

 

Seems very straight forward to me.

 

-OMG

 

The power gives a save, it doesn't state when and how the save it used. Refer to BRB for when and how. BRB gives no when and how for vehicles unless they are obscured. No when and no how = no rolling of saves.

 

A Librarian Dread casting Shield of Sanguinius on himself is as useful as him casting Might of Heroes on himself when he isn't locked in combat, or Wings of Sanguinius when he's immobilized.

 

Just because you can cast what turn out to be useless powers, doesn't mandate a re-writing of the rules to make them useful. It just means you have to select and use the powers for the tactically appropriate situations. SoS is a perfectly useful power when anything that isn't a vehicle stands to benefit from the save it receives.

 

As for the most important rule, I am happy to defer to that. If you and your opponent agree to allow vehicles to take saves without being obscured, then by all means do so :o

 

 

From the Infantry rules on page 21 of the rulebook

 

When are models in cover?

 

When any part of the target model's body (as defined on page 16) is obscured from the point of view of the firer the target model is in cover.

 

From the Vehicle rules on page 62:

 

If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it.

 

I stated this on page 1 of this thread and someone else brought it up again but many seem to be conveniently ignoring it.

 

So I have two questions for people who think vehicles don't get the save.

 

1. Why does being obscured not matter for infantry but does matter for vehicles when both rulesets state the model must be obscured to be in cover?

 

 

This is because for infantry we have a 'take saving throws' step in the rules that follows straight after working out wounds. It is states to roll a D6 for each wound a model has suffered, comparing the save characteristic, you either stop the wound or suffer a wound etc. If your model has a cover save, you can refer to this part of the book for what to do.

 

Vehicles don't suffer wounds. The operative rule is

 

If a vehicle is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save exactly like a non vehicle model wound do against a wound. If the save is passed, the hit is discarded and no roll is made on the damage table.

 

There is a written requirement in the above rule for the special obscured status before a save for the vehicles can be rolled.

 

There is no other text in the book addresses taking saving throws against penetrating/glancing hits.

 

Taking a saving throw for something that doesn't have wounds and isn't obscured isn't covered in the book. Feel free to discuss with your opponent the implications of that. If you and your opponent agree to imagine Shield of Sanguinius as a giant golden shield in front of your force that deflects shots, then feel free to add to the rules that SoS 'counts vehicles as obscured'. You would then have to agree on whether it was a 4+ of 5+ save.

 

On the other side, one could imagine the librarian is strong enough in will to create a golden shield(s) large enough for his Marine-sized companions to use, but his powers' don't extend to providing adequate enough cover to vehicles to grant the obscured status. Hence the RAW makes sense.

[Skalver]

This is because for infantry we have a 'take saving throws' step in the rules that follows straight after working out wounds. It is states to roll a D6 for each wound a model has suffered, comparing the save characteristic, you either stop the wound or suffer a wound etc. If your model has a cover save, you can refer to this part of the book for what to do.

 

The rules say that models in or behind cover recieve a cover saving throw. How is it any different to argue that since the SoS power does not say that the models count as being in cover they have a 5+ cover save that they cannot use? You could argue that if they were in 6+ cover they would get a 5+ cover save but that since they are not in cover they gain no cover save at all. It is the exact same argument just applied to infantry. The rules say you must be in cover to recieve a cover saving throw, the power does not say the models are in cover, therefore they have a cover saving throw that they can not use.

 

On the other side, one could imagine the librarian is strong enough in will to create a golden shield(s) large enough for his Marine-sized companions to use, but his powers' don't extend to providing adequate enough cover to vehicles to grant the obscured status. Hence the RAW makes sense.

 

Except that in doing so you would be the one assuming an unspecified limitation to the rules. The power says he summons a barrier to shield friendly units. Assuming it is too small to shield vehicles is adding a limitation to the power that is certainly not written in the rules. A rule that does not list exceptions is presumed not to have exceptions.

 

Also you are assuming the description of the barrier is not part of the rules. Conjuring a physical barrier is what obscures the units. Again, you would need to show that this line of the rules is supposed to be ignored. Just because the first paragraph of the powers description is usually irrelevant to the details of the power does not mean that the information there can always be ignored as irrelevent.

[thade]

Are we still on about this?

 

The power confers a cover save. The power doesn't require terrain to do so. The power just grants a cover save to whatever units are in range. Vehicles are units. Correct me if I'm wrong. :o

 

The vehicle cover rules are not written to include psychic powers; they are written to cover terrain, and to distinguish between Area Terrain (which may not Obscure a vehicle) and visual terrain (which may Obscure a vehicle). Obscuring is the only way *terrain* can confer a cover save.

 

The best counter example so far is that of the Dreadnought Librarian. If the rules are as you suggest, then the Dread Librarian cannot receive a cover save from his own psychic power. That should seem bonk for a reason; it is bonk. Of course he'd benefit from his own power. And if he does, so should any other vehicle in range.

[Grey Mage]

The power gives a save, it doesn't state when and how the save it used.

It doesnt have to. Those are covered by the basic rules, wich you have yet to show do not allow a vehicle to take a cover save other than obscured. All youve done is repeatedly point out one way they can gain a cover save, and then arbitrarily insisted its the only way do so.

 

The section about cover saves- BRB pg. 20 tell us when a cover save is taken. Particularly note also pg. 301 of the large book, left hand side under "shooting sequence" wich sums up the basic process rather nicely.

 

Pg. 62, paragraph 3 sentence 2 tells us what happens when a vehicle, specificly, makes its cover save.