Fighting nids....

[lunchb0x]

At my LGS there are starting to be more and more players and more then just SPHESS MAHREENS...and I am having some issues with bugs...in reality I always have...yay 2nd.

 

So how do you beat a list with 6 of the big buys? 2 of the guys that spawn out little buggers, 1- 3man squad of Carnis, 2 of the underground buggers ?

 

So what do you take to stomp that list out?

 

If need be I can post up my 2k list, but this was a 2k game and man I just couldnt kill enough!

 

So how would I beat this with pound puppies?

[Vassakov]

Your best bet is going to be Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields to deal with the big bugs, Long Fangs with Missiles to alternate between Fragging the little 'uns and Kraking the chitin of the bigger bugs. Grey Hunters armed with Plasma Guns should be able to nail anything nearby, and Vindicators can blow huge holes in the Carnifex Broods or smaller things.

[pucadubh]

I have had good success with 2x 5 man ML Long Fangs squads with 2x Rhino GH Squads with RP & WGPL(cmg & pf), 1 x maxed GH squad with Melta/Plasma & TDA WGPL Cyclone CMG and PF, 2 Lone Wolves 1 with Motw and 1 with TDA (cmg & pf) and both had a FW each and finally the 5 man TWC unit.

 

Castle up and don't rush in. Soften up the big guys and then hit them

with TWC or LWs. Even the RP finished one off (Beastslayer is only 10 points!).

 

Bit of patience and then unload and don't forget to use cover and countercharge.

[Silverwolf]

Well, Carnifexs are only 3+Sv now, so Redeemers would kill pretty much everything in his list fairly well... I'd go with Vass's T.Hammer/S.Shield idea, but I'd check the points difference on PA vs TDA WG for that weapon combo. If the points difference isn't great, go with the TDA, if it is, stick with PA, because if your hunting his big toys with that squad then they're not going to be using the 2+ armour save anyway. If you really want to get nasty, throw on Ragnar and a Wolf Priest and take an Oath against monstrous creatures. D3 attacks on the charge, with furious charge, and re-rolling to hit. You'll eat his big toys for breakfast ;).

 

The Redeemer's flamers and Ass.Can will make short work of any of his other units, and if you throw in a L.Fang pack (or 2) with 3x Missile Launcher / 2x Plasma Cannon, there won't be anything in his list that can survive for long against you.

 

The biggest problem with Nid big targets is alway's they're toughness, which has always meant you have to kill them one wound at a time (which can get painful). Another way to give him a headache would be to take a Rune Priest, his force weapon will mean you only need one wound on the creature to kill it (hopefully), as from memory there is not a single unit in the Nid list with eternal warrior.

 

As to dealing with all the little buggers. G.Hunters with 2x Flamers has always worked wonders for me ;), throw in a P.Fist incase one of the big mothers gets around the monster hunting squad, and your ready to squish some bugs ;). One question though... is he using Mawlocs, or just the Trygon/Trygon Prime? The Mawloc is a nasty fella... large blast template, and every unit under it as it comes to the surface takes S6 AP2 hits, vehicles always on rear armour. If he's using that, stay in terrain, as he may be unwilling to risk a deep strike mishap to appear under them.

 

Oh, and dealing with Nids is like Dealing with Orks... the only two armies in 40k Space Wolves SHOULDN'T always be charging at. Soften them up as much as you can before getting into close combat. You can use Rhinos to get in close with the dual flamer squads and just fire out the top with less risk to the squad. Also, if your taking drop pods, might be worth looking at outfitting them with the DeathStrike Missiles, the extra 20 points will pay for itself in it's first round of shooting against his little horde units.

[DV8]

There's a fair bit you can field to take out big creatures, and it all depends on HOW you want to do it.

 

Unfortunately, unless you spam Land Speeder Typhoons or Rune Priests with Jaws of the World Wolf (Tervigons and Carnifexes are both Initiative 1, so a roll of 3+ kills them on the Initiative test), there is no one unit that will absolutely tear apart monsters in one go.

 

Particularily with Space Wolves, it's all about synergy, and using units in tandem to first soften up the target, before launching a devastating charge to finish the job.

 

For range, I like to use Land Speeder Typhoons, as they're versatile against both hordes and monstrous creatures. Plus they are mobile, meaning with a 12" move you can land your Kraks almost anywhere on a 6' by 4' table, terrain permitting.

 

I also like to run a healthy amount of Grey Hunter packs equipped thusly:

 

9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Rhino (packs of 8 if I attach a character)

Wolf Guard, Power Fist, Combi-Flamer

 

This pack is relatively cheap, and is incredibly versatile against a great many things (hordes, armor, monsters). Is it the most effective specialized build? No, but it is utilitarian, and I run no less than four of these packs in 1500 pts.

 

Lastly, a Rune Priest with Jaws of the World Wolf is great for sniping those pesky monsters (again as mentioned Tervigons and Carnifexes are both Initiative 1, and so highly susceptible to this psychic power), but I don't like spamming it, and so I only field 1 in my army.

 

There are other available options for range, but I like mobile firepower so the above three would be my ranged workhorses.

 

As I mentioned, you need some sort of close combat punch to finish the job, and you can use a variety of units to accomplish this.

 

The first is the aforementioned Grey Hunter packs, which can easily take down a monstrous creature in a turn if you target it with two or three packs.

 

Arjac Rockfist is an absolute monster, and can be hidden in a squad of Grey Hunters or Blood Claws for ablative wounds, allowing him to tackle at least two or three monstrous creatures in a game without worry about taking wounds himself. And even then, 2+/3+ save with Eternal Warrior and 2 Wounds ensures he won't go down easy. Plus he can throw his hammer. How badass is that?

 

Lone Wolves in Terminator Armor, Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields are LIKE mini-Arjacs, but they are expensive, and slow, and don't fit into my army (which is a mechanized style of play), but if you intend to foot-slog, it might be an option for you.

 

The benefit of all of the above (barring Lone Wolves) is that the units aren't slouches against other armies, and would form the core of a balanced army that you can use to tackle most any other opponent.

 

Wolves of Fenris

 

HQ // Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane: 240 pts

 

HQ // Rune Priest: 110 pts

- Chooser of the Slain, Jaws of the World Wolf, Living Lightning

 

Elites // 5 Wolf Guard: 380 pts

- Arjac Rockfist

- Terminator Armor, Cyclone Missile Launcher

- 3 Power Fists, 3 Combi-Flamers

 

Troops // 8 Grey Hunters: 160 pts

- Meltagun, Rhino

 

Troops // 8 Grey Hunters: 160 pts

- Meltagun, Rhino

 

Troops // 9 Grey Hunters: 175 pts

- Meltagun, Rhino

 

Troops // 10 Grey Hunters: 155 pts

- 2 Meltaguns

 

Fast Attack // 2 Land Speeder Typhoons: 180 pts

 

Fast Attack // Land Speeder Typhoon: 90 pts

 

Fast Attack // Land Speeder Typhoon: 90 pts

 

Heavy Support // Land Raider Crusader: 260 pts

- Multi-Melta

 

 

2000 pts on the dot

 

Ragnar, Arjac and 10-strong Grey Hunters ride in the Land Raider Crusader

1 PA Wolf Guard per Grey Hunter pack

TDA Wolf Guard runs solo and basically walks around throwing 2 Krak shots per turn where needed

Typhoons zip around to lend support fire

Rune Priest goes in one of the 8-strong packs

 

Depending on the scenario, table and enemy army, you can either castle and beg them to charge you (at which point you beat face), or take the fight to them. Ragnar buffs Arjac to the point of rediculousness, with S11 and anywhere from 5 to 7 attacks on the charge, plus his thrown S10 hammer.

 

And thats if, of course, they survive the 10 mobile Krak missiles you're throwing out each turn...

 

 

DV8

[lunchb0x]

I like your plan DV8...I might have to steal some elements of this....its the big guys that are the biggest problem...not the little guys...and I do love those speeders.

[surelock]

DV8 - Is it legal to run 2 land speeders in the same squadron? My AB will not allow it but guys at my LGS do run them as such, but I would like to make sure.

Thanks much.

[stinkenheim]

P 91 of the codex.

land Speeder squadron, compostion 1-3 land speeders.

 

then under the options... 'any land speeder may take XXX, any land speeder may be upgraded to a land speeder tornado armed with the following XXX, alternatively a land speeder may be upgraded to a land speeder typhoon armed with XXX'.

 

pretty clear that you can have 1-3 land speeders per suad, each can be a basic pattern, tornado or typhhon pattern or any mix of the above. typhoons however cannot take a second weapon apart from the launchers whereas tonadoes get a multitude of choices. tornadoes are probably better at pure anti horde, but typhoons are better all rounders, and less likely to take damage from short range fire as their weapons are considerably longer range.

[Aeddon]

DV8 - Is it legal to run 2 land speeders in the same squadron? My AB will not allow it but guys at my LGS do run them as such, but I would like to make sure.

Thanks much.

It's generally a good idea to double-check with the codex after using Army Builder, love the software but it's not always 100% accurate.

 

I took down my brother's Trygon Primewith a squad of Grey Hunters. Nine men with PF, Melta and Wolf Standard and a WG with PF and Combi-Melta. He got the charge, I counter-charged. Got his down to two wounds left and he took out five GH's. I passed leadership and took him out in the next combat. I only had the two with PF's remaining but this squad had already taken out a unit of Genestealers earlier in the game so they more than made back their points!

[DV8]

I like your plan DV8...I might have to steal some elements of this....its the big guys that are the biggest problem...not the little guys...and I do love those speeders.

 

Of course, which is why all the elements I mentioned are focused primarily on monster-killing (or at least, the reasoning for including them is). But I also like to make sure my units are capable of multiple roles if necessary, and spending fewer points on units that can do more than one thing makes them win in my book.

 

 

DV8

[Karack Blackstone]

Vindi's and Whirlies for pie plates, I'd wager, some RP or WP with the proper JOWW or MC hunting, and if you're nutty like me, some BC's led by said WP with MC's as his targets. LF's, not too sure of, but PC's if you don't mind overheats now and then, or something like it, say ML's might prove more useful.

 

Standard bug hunting, they just overdid the codex, in my experience.

[Grey Mage]

Grey Hunters with Plasmaguns, supported by Long Fangs with Missile Launchers and Lascannons, with a squad of bloodclaws+WP in reserve and atleast one Rune Priest for psychic defense.

 

Hit them, concentrate fire until you kill them, then move onto the next. One or two will probly hit your lines, then hit them with the bloodclaws.

 

Throw in some more Grey Hunters, a Whirlwind, and a couple dreadnaughts and youve got your horde-o-gaunts covered too.

 

Oh, and dont forget Murderous Hurricane... its a godsend against genestealers.

[Taeken]

man I love these topics Wolves vs (insert army here). So much usefull info. I think I shall pick up a couple 3 Speeders soon. Never used em, but seem very versitile.

[NuclearMessiah]

I cheaply deal with them by packing out plasma guns works for my IG and while I can not take as many in my SW they will put the fear of the God Emperor in those pesky MCs

[Simo429]

DV8 why have ragnar when you have no blood claws?? doesnt it negate the purpose a little?

[Grey Mage]

There's a fair bit you can field to take out big creatures, and it all depends on HOW you want to do it.

 

Unfortunately, unless you spam Land Speeder Typhoons or Rune Priests with Jaws of the World Wolf (Tervigons and Carnifexes are both Initiative 1, so a roll of 3+ kills them on the Initiative test), there is no one unit that will absolutely tear apart monsters in one go.

 

Particularily with Space Wolves, it's all about synergy, and using units in tandem to first soften up the target, before launching a devastating charge to finish the job.

While I agree with you in practice, Ive seen my unit of long fangs down Carnifexii in one round of shooting far to often to say that there is no one unit that will take down their monstrous creatures like a hot knife through butter.

[Stormbrow II]

Is no-one going to suggest TWC? 5 S10 attacks and wound allocation to make sure Mr. Fist survives usually batters any of the big bugs senseless.

 

S10 Wolf Lords are also very, very good. Both of these units have serious mobility that allows them to pick their targets rather than get swamped in a morass of little Gaunts. You also have the speed to ensure that your target isn't able to get away even if they have Fleet themselves.

 

Typically I'll shoot the Trygons before they can make it to my lines because they have high I while I'll Jaws Tervigons or batter them in combat. The Tervs are the highest priority thing in most games for me because pumping out assloads of Gaunts makes it nigh impossible to grab objectives unless they have a miscarraige. They've got to go down early.

[Tanon]

DV8 why have ragnar when you have no blood claws?? doesnt it negate the purpose a little?

 

 

Generally, I think that Grey Hunters make a better pack for Ragnar than Blood Claws anyway. He gives them D3 attacks on the charge, which averages to two attacks, so same as a BC pack. Then, the GHs have superior WS, and since you're not running a Wolf Priest in that particular setup for the rerolls anyway, it gives you better weapon options before the charge. Ragnar, Arjac, and 10 Grey Hunters with double Melta, Fist, and MotW in a Crusader is pretty fearsome. Even on high toughness MCs, you'll be consistantly putting two wounds on it BEFORE you charge (two melta shots and a Arjac's hammer) and then Ragnar's FC'd Frost Sword will hit on 3s wound on 4s against T6. So, just from Ragnar you should get something like two more wounds. You can also throw in one of Ragnar's Fen wolves for some extra attacks and ablative wounds if you want to :)

[VorpalDoom]

The purpose of Ragnar isn't to go with blood claws, infact, he's LESS effective with them than another unit.

 

Ragnar gives another unit the similar benefits of blood claws, without the crappy weaponskill.

 

 

 

 

But, my suggestion for nidzilla:

 

Missile Launchers, lots of them. I don't go into any 2k game without 15 of them anymore. It's just too good.

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry model w/ Storm shield and thunderhammer. I can't remember if carnis can get to S10 anymore, either way, it shouldn't be an issue. Keep them within charge range of your long fangs, or any other unit you may have that a Trygon or Mawloc would want to gobble up. charge them with 2-3 of these guys, they will vanish from existance with minimal casualties on your part. The 15 missile launchers should tear through carnis, and of course the tervis in very short order.

 

If all else, fails, mass plasma guns on grey hunters, combi-plasmas on wolf guard. Razorbacks with lascannon/TL plasma gun work wonders as well, giving the range advantage to you.

 

 

 

Best thing to remember is to focus fire, make sure something dies, don't leave 2-3 monsters with 1-2 wounds left if possible.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

While I agree with you in practice, Ive seen my unit of long fangs down Carnifexii in one round of shooting far to often to say that there is no one unit that will take down their monstrous creatures like a hot knife through butter.

Couldn't agree more - the 5 ML Long Fang Pack is a serious anti-MC device, particularly the new '3+' nids. They are also reasonably effective against hordes, which doubles their benefit in context.

 

I would also reccommend the investment of thunder hammers over power fists - the stun bonus is often overlooked as overpriced, but it can be really handy in that second, and often crucial, round of combat.

[lunchb0x]

Carnifex is I-1 when not charging...so thunder hammer i dont think will do as much.

[surelock]

Carnifex is I-1 when not charging...so thunder hammer i dont think will do as much.

 

Ok I tried my 2500 ARD boyz list out yesyerday at a local tourney and other than an abherration of dice rolling in my second game I must say that 21 missiles a turn is devastating to pretty much any army I played.

 

I did not get the chance to play the local Nids but I believe that they would have fallen as wheat before the scythe. I ran into demons, orcs (the same list that finished 10th at the ARD Boyz finals last year and piloted by the same guy) and Black Templar (this was the rolling abherration). I ran Logan Grimnar and stuck him into a Long Fangs pack (heresy I know, there are few here who would agree on this decision) but with 2 lascannons and 3 missile launchers in his squad it was absolutely devastating. Used relentless mainly but tank hunters came in handy a number of times as well, and the +1 attack within 18" served its purpose as well, especially when combined with the relentless to put them where they needed to be.

 

I ran 3 Long Fang packs with 2 of them being 5 missile launchers and ran 2 wolf guard packs (mainly as my assault element and w/ Logan making them scoring worked magnificently) and a WG termie w/ Cyclone and power fist in each (in case anyone closed with them I wanted a way to kill high toughness in CC). I also ran a squadron of 2 Typhoons and 2 single MM/HF speeders. 4 Grey Hunter squads in rhinos (3 melta and 1 plasma pack) as well as 2 wolf guard packs loaded w/ a power fist and 3 power weapons and 2 combi-weapons ( combi-flamers in one and combi-plasmas in the second 2 each). I gave the 2 Long Fang packs without Logan Razorbacks ( a Las/plas and TS ass cannon ) and used them mainly to transport the wolf guard around.

 

I scored 2 massacres in the games with average rolling and got massecred in one (bad rolling is all I can say the tactics were sound and my play while not flawless was quite sound).

 

While this info may be irrelevant (to some) to the thread (I thought it may be pertinent however) I thought that its inclusion may help in a decision.

 

THanks for allowing me to ramble, I have more info on the list if anyone is interested.

[DV8]

It's not that I think there isn't one unit that can absolutely devastate Monstrous Creatures, but on a practical level I don't enjoy stacking too many of one thing, while sacrificing in other areas. And I won't deny Long Fangs their effectiveness (situationally), but I prefer mechanized armies. To me speed and mobility are equally important as the amount of firepower they can lay down, which is why I'd take a squadron of Typhoons over a pack of Long Fangs any day.

 

As for Ragnar, I love him, I love the model I have for him, and he's a great counter-charge support unit. And I dislike Blood Claws over Grey Hunters.

 

 

DV8

[VorpalDoom]

DV8 brings up a very good point... there is no "ONE" unit that dominates MCs... but that's the kicker, many of us have had lots of success with multiple long fang units.

 

A 5 Missile Launcher long fang unit with a wolf guard for ablative wounds, comes out at a mighty 158 points. 3 of these is very inexpensive in comparison to their effectiveness.

 

 

I run a very shooty wolf list, with lots of razorbacks, and usually land speeders mixed with a few hard hitting counter-charge units. The razorbacks provide the mobile fire support required in the list, and the long fangs do something that's actually pretty stunning. They do a fantastic job of funneling the enemy where I want them to be. Forcing the opponent to play on a smaller board, hiding behind terrain, choosing to move through terrain instead of in the open, thus slowing them down.

 

That alone makes them worth their points.

 

DV8 chooses ragnar as his counter-charge support unit, I like taking a couple of thunderhammer toting thunderwolves, just preference i suppose.

[Grey Mage]

Taking one unit of long fangs isnt even a situational unit DV8, not in my experiance anyways- if your meched up them give them a Razorback and let them give your rhinos *who should be moving fast to where theyre needed eh?* some covering fire... and then pack up and move if need be.

 

The only time my LFs havent made back their points in 5th was once when they took a battlecannon to the face turn 1 and I failed 4 out of 5 cover saves, and the pack leader still managed to cause some distractions on the flank.