Havoks!

[Canadin]

After looking at other Chaos players Lists, I find Heavy slots always seem to be filled with Blitz, Raiders, and the occaisional Defiler

 

I am wondering if anyone else out there enjoys feilding havoks? They come cheaper than all the other choices, and make lots of shots

 

for 145pts you have 5 Marines, 4 Heavy Bolters, Icon Chaos Glory, which makes 12 shots, 8 hits, 5-7 Wounds

 

for 165pts you have 5 Marines, 4 Auto Cannons, Icon Chaos Glory, they make 8 S7 shots at 48" range, great for blasting transports that are all over 5th ed

 

They can also grab Rockets for anti-MEQ / blasting away Orks

 

I'll agree Lascannons are way overcosted on them, but I just don't see why I never see them on other player's tables. So, does anyone else use Havoks?

[Possessed Marine]

don't use them often, but the couple of times I did, they did pretty admirably... just had them sit on a hill and blast away at one of my opponent's flanks... eventually he went the other way around some terrain, straight into a 20 man strong squad of berzerkers... so I put my havocs into a raider to get a lift to the other side to rain more fire onto units that weren't in hth... the other few times I just had them rain fire on anything that they could

[Brother Nihm]

*plays the Devil's Advocate*

 

for 145pts you have 5 Marines, 4 Heavy Bolters, Icon Chaos Glory, which makes 12 shots, 8 hits, 5-7 Wounds

Static unit with medium range and it is easily neutralized. Depending on terrain it can be avoided entirely.

 

for 165pts you have 5 Marines, 4 Auto Cannons, Icon Chaos Glory, they make 8 S7 shots at 48" range, great for blasting transports that are all over 5th ed

Better than the above due to increased range, but suffer from the same limitations.

 

They can also grab Rockets for anti-MEQ / blasting away Orks

A smart Ork player will space out his models whenever possible so that frag weapons and the like won't be as effective.

 

I'll agree Lascannons are way overcosted on them, but I just don't see why I never see them on other player's tables. So, does anyone else use Havoks?

Lascannons are overcosted, as are most of their other weapons (and the icons in particular). I do sometimes use Havocs myself. I field either the assault variant (4 flamer deathsquad in a Rhino with a fist champ + combi), or as a 6 man squad with 3 Autocannons.

 

Please see this topic for more discussion on Havoc usage.

 

There is also few more topics on using Havocs:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2256770

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2196205

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2176127

[Xeonic]

It's worth noting that havoks are (though marginally)better than marine devestators for the same cost, though they also pay full price for heavy weapons(except of course devestator equivalents in the newer codices), it's worth noting that they're one of the best chaos choices to slip autocannon in masse(3-4) into an army for transport busting at long range(something chaos isn't peticularly good at otherwise), and they work quite well as long as you give them the ablative wounds they need(general rule of thumb, 1 wound per heavy weapon).

 

I think autocannon are the best bet, heavy bolters are really only good vs hordes, and missile launchers, while quite good, are one shot wonders. Autocannon are a nice mix, 2 high strength shots will kill pretty much any infantry well enough while retaining the power to lay waste to light armor.

 

It's not even about making your points back or being super cost efficient, it's about doing something your army needs, and that's long range antitransport/MC power, a role shared only with oblits and combi predators.

 

The above linked topics are of course also well worth reading. :(

[the jeske]

why they suck ?

well ... easy. no matter what you do to them and what set up you take , they will always be good against one and only one thing . AC are great against rhinos but they have a harder time against av 13 and do nothing to LR rush builds . Hvy bolters are ok against meq and good against horde , but they do absolutly nothing against tanks and even against rhinos they far realy bad[in a mecha centered edition]. Now normaly when someone builds a list out of a different codex the chaos [or necrons] there is always a way[better or worse] to support the choices you make . You take anti horde sm tacticals with vhy bolter and flamer , you can take anti tank/support in the form of drop dreads and/or MM attack bikes. Decided on a hth BA build well that 10 man sternguard unit in a drop pod will help you pop those transports on turn 1. With chaos there is no such thing . We have no other usable support choice in other slots , we cant say ok I take auto canons against skimers and rhinos and unit X will do the real anti tank . Because the real anti tank is done by the same unit in the same slots as the havocks are . Oblits do everything they do anti tank with meltas or lascanons , they can do anti horde and anti meq/teq with plasma , they are a counter to everything and they are not totaly static like havocks .

 

 

 

the cost of havocks is also a problem . in the example given they are 5 man squads .. well then for them to survive you need 3 squads , otherwise its 7-8 man squads and then they cost more then oblits . Now people will say thats not a lot more , but you have to remember those 40-50 pts extra have to come from somewhere and as we dont really have a choice as HQ or troops goes[and on top of that they all cost more or less the same ] taking those two or three havock units forces you to play with less troops [so we are trading a sub optimal unit for scoring units ] or one HQ[and this is not the begining of 5th anymore one DP sucks ] .

[Canadin]

Hmm, I guess I see that 150 points of heavybolters might as well be 150 points of scoring bolters and flamers

 

I used to play an IW army of 4 units of Havoks, so 8 Autocannons, 4 Laz Cannons, and then i added in the 4 HB for a lil anti-infantry...

 

Not being scoring units I guess does lower the significance of the Heavy Bolter squads by a good bit...

 

As for Oblitz,.... The model is really ugly, and I dont like half daemon half marine look.... I need to find a more Marine'ey model for them maybe...

 

Maybe I'll just take terminators and glue tons of guns on their arms

[minigun762]

for 145pts you have 5 Marines, 4 Heavy Bolters, Icon Chaos Glory, which makes 12 shots, 8 hits, 5-7 Wounds

 

The big question for me is why not take a Dakka Predator instead? Sure we don't get it at the super cheap price of Loyalists (thats a whole other complaint of mine) but you still have a similar amount of firepower for alot cheaper.

 

Or go crazy with it and take a Havoc Launcher as well. Its still 30 points cheaper but now you have an additional S5 weapon and a TL blast one to boot!

[chillin]

5 havocs w/ 4 hvy weops means that you start losing hvy weop marines after 1 kill, so havocs are really not as cheap as you are making out. That being said I do use them once in a while just to mix things up. When I do take them I use them w/ HB's and/or AC's.

But what others have said is correct, they are more static and in some ways more easily countered then other HS choices.

[Corpse.]

Heavy bolters....

Two bolters rapid firing is like one heavy bolter by most math-hammer and better against T3 targets because of the extra shot. The only difference is hurting T8 models like wraithlords, which you should be using other weapons anyways. Ironically you can buy a second marine for a marine's heavy bolter in a hav squad.

 

Missile launchers, frag = same thing, more marines where they should be getting bolter hits in. Kraks, well if you got meltas at that short range, even kraks vs rear armor and powerfists versus anything else your still putting more bodies in their face then spreading the army thin. Krak or frag, it's outdone.

 

Lascannons, maybe the only different part here. Rely on many bodies, unlike oblits can take more hits from hard hitting single shot weapons but falter to blast more so than oblits. Cover saves might be better taken here however being 3+ armor save units with the extra wounds granted. Cannot move and fire though which is the drawback. Costly but can be useful above a stun-able (or redundant BS3 if not stun-able) predator in this slot. I use it sometimes, but that is when I get curious of varying playstyles. Otherwise, it should be a troop choice sitting back on an objective.

 

Autocannons, well, you run into going short range superiority or long range granted to more versatile gun units for similar cost. Otherwise a decent choice back in 3.5 when the tank hunters skill was available to them. No longer the case.

 

That leaves flamers, meltas and plasmas.

 

Plasma guns are perhaps the more popular choice, being unscoring, and not infiltrating. A unit of 9 with a HQ maybe since they can do that aside from regular CSM who must be 10 models for 2 special weapons. Split when they disembark so the HQ can charge in while the regulars can rapid fire to their hearts content.

 

Flamers of course are lash-loving, sometimes go as far as putting a combi-flamer on the champion AND rhino for a total of 6 templates on a tightly packed unit. I sometimes get a whole unit of orks dead with lash and 5 flamers using chosen, not havocs. But havocs can do it too.

 

Meltas this unit is a more suicidal force IMO, high target to take out early. Great if you want a distraction though. Fire once, maybe twice in the game before being useless or taken out. Either way, don't expect much beyond termicide when that occurs.

 

At any rate, they're a suicidal unit you send in. They should be short ranged in most cases. Great if you want to balance weapons loadouts, wonderful if you plan ahead for them. If your big on elites and have no room for chosen, or you want chosen but rather not require infiltrate/outflank and paying those extra points for it. Havocs are useful.

 

I like them with a rhino using a havoc launcher with 4 missile launchers in a unit of about 6 sitting back and hammering with frags when having lash around. Seems fun, lash makes it plenty worthy. If you want a ranged version, that might be what you're looking for with havocs as a selling point.

[chillin]

Heavy bolters....

Two bolters rapid firing is like one heavy bolter

 

HB range is 36", bolters have to be w/in 12" to fire twice. And of course HB's are str.5.

You're not making a very accurate comparison. I'm not sure what kind of math hammer you are using.

[minigun762]

I'm not sure what kind of math hammer you are using.

 

I believe its the idea that against MEQS, 4 Bolter shots = 3 Heavy Bolter shots

 

4 Bolters = 2.67 hits = 1.33 wounds = 0.44 dead MEQ

3 H. Bolters = 2 hits = 1.33 wounds = 0.44 dead MEQ

 

Against MEQs its true but it starts to breakdown once you move outside that, mostly because of range issues. Just to see, against GEQs (T3 5+)

4 Bolters = 2.67 hits = 1.79 wounds = 1.79 dead GEQ

3 H. Bolters = 2 hits = 1.66 wounds = 1.66 dead GEQ

[chillin]

Yeah, but I don't think you can compair being 12" away with being 36" away.

[Canadin]

even if its a little more expensive, I think Im liking Havoks over Blitz

 

Krak Missles do almost as much as Lascannons, and Autocannons are almost as good as Lascannons vs AV 12 or less

 

If a Lazcannon shot hits a predator, theres a good chance it will not shoot next turn; if it hits a blit, theres a high chance of instant death; if it hits a havok unit, I can ditch a bulletcatcher marine

 

Im liking very much 180 points for 6 marines ICG, and 4 Missles or Autocannons, they can't be shaken or stunned, they reach the whole table so mobility doesnt really matter, they shoot twice as much as blitz for their point cost, and they get soak wounds for 15 points each; and what Im finding very significant, is that they place another icon onthe table to hold my own objectives with lesser daemon packs (5 for 65pts)

 

Heavy Bolters may not be very good, and Lazcannons are costly, but Misssiles and Autocannons are great from my playtesting

[the jeske]

If a Lazcannon shot hits a predator, theres a good chance it will not shoot next turn; if it hits a blit, theres a high chance of instant death; if it hits a havok unit, I can ditch a bulletcatcher marine

only unless your getting hit by a vendetta[and then the problems is not 1 las but a lot more las and the meltas/plasma from the vets and it doesnt matter if your 8 havocks , pred or oblit you will die] no one is going to shot with a single lascanon at a unit of havocks [+ in case of oblits it would be realy hard to do unless A someone doesn tknow how to LoS block or gets hid by mentioned before vendettas].

The problem with havocks is that no matter what set up you take they are always bad against many builds or unit set ups. oblits are never bad , no matter against what army you play.

 

6 marines with 4 hvy is not great . first of all you dont have the rulesLF do[spliting fire] so you always waste some of the shots. Second thing is the first time those havock will be shot at you will lose 2-3 hvy weapons as even the most basic units are [that shot] made to kill 2-3 meq per turn on the move . If anyone plays tau , eldar or IG those havocks will be wiped on one turn . they have one more wound but a worse normal save then oblits what means small weapon fire hurts them a lot . yes they have 4 hvy weapons , but unlike oblits they cant be rhino los blocked[they stay static and oblits dont] so easily and if they see enemy units then he sees them , what means they are mostly dead on his next turn.

[Xeonic]

Everything is weak to something, and oblits are fairly unique in their ability to selectively engage with whatever weapon they want on the fly.

Does this mean that havoks are useless? Not in my opinion. Does this mean that the 2-4 autocannon you bring them packing are a waste? Not vs most lists.

Look at it this way, you have 6 havoks with 3 autocannon vs 2 oblits at the same cost, what's better at destroying a transport at range, the 2 oblit lascannon shots, or the 6 autocannon shots?

 

I'm not saying havoks are the sure fire way to go and you can spam them endlessly, I'm just saying that they are a nice way to bring some autocannon to the board relatively cheap.

Autocannon are perfectly suited to eliminating the transports that the majority of lists field these days(raiders aside). Autocannon can semi reliably put wounds on MCs, and autocannon can put wounds on infantry pretty easily as well.

 

With all their uniqueness and variety in weapons, oblits are not always the answer to everything, believe it or not.

Maybe it's just my tired mind being sick of seeing every list with 3x2 oblits at the bottom.

[the jeske]

Not in my opinion. Does this mean that the 2-4 autocannon you bring them packing are a waste? Not vs most lists.

they do nothing against LR rush , they have huge problems against the new BAs runing 3 baals , they can stun eldar and tau for a turn or two , but that is max what they can do . If a unit choice does nothing against played builds and those builds are more common then one codex[there are many armies that play LR rush] .

 

I'm not saying havoks are the sure fire way to go and you can spam them endlessly

ok am missing something here.... oblits played in 2x1 suck too. either a support unit is good for an army [like oblits ,LR for a LR rush army , Defilers for a hth tailored army] and then it is spamed or it aint played at all. a single supported unit that is viable as a single choice is either very powerful[like mefiston] good against everything [playing 2 defilers and 1x3 oblits in a chaozilla army as meta against mecha armies] or undercosted . havocks are non of that. they are niche unit that can work in armies tailored against certain armies and that is it. I mean its like saying that a whirlwind is an imba support choice for sm , because its good against horde and can pop rhinos av10/11 stuff and can also put a nice number of saves on meq.

[Xeonic]

So again you say they suck because they can't hurt raiders and heavy armor? As I said there are many lighter targets autocannons are used against and heavy armor counters will be auto includes in any list as well. Vs a raider rush list your oblits would just be shooting lascannon anyways(unless you DS expensive relatively fragile units to take advantage of meltas vs heavy armor), and lascannon vs AV14 is a randomness attack for the first turn or two.

Once your termicide or raptors(yes, I dare to consider them!) or melta marines pop those raiders and sacrifice themselves to khorne in the backlash of whatever is in the raider, the autocannon havoks can put wounds on them.

 

In the vast majority of lists there will be something squishy or lightly armored, and perfectly willing to be shot by autocannon. In fact, vs a normal mech list there will be targets aplenty to use those autocannon on from turn 1.

Maybe it's because I'm used to playing loyalist marine armies where a -good- counter to tansports/MCs/infantry is always welcome, and there's plenty of choices to sneak melta into a list aside. I'm also spoiled by 5pt plasma cannon, but that's another story.

 

What's wrong with taking a counter for a smaller spectrum of targets than oblits are if they're vastly more effective vs that target profile than oblits are for the same pts cost?

In my marine list I often include a dual TL/AC rifleman dread or even two purely for transport/MC killing, because the shots will be perfectly effective shooting at infantry targets as well if there's nothing for them to shoot. In my marine army I also include some fast melta choices to counter heavy armor, as does virtually every chaos list I've seen, in the form of termicide or chaos marines with 2x meltagun.

 

I'm not trying to convince you that oblits are a bad choice, far from it, I'm trying to convince you that havoks in a limited spectrum are a better choice vs certain lists/target profiles, and ones you'll see on the table often. then again if you weren't willing to consider anything but 3x2 or even 3x3 oblits for your HS choices why am I presenting an argument? It's not like I'll change your mind, and you'll just keep using your lash princes and oblits, blissful in the knowledge that you are playing a top tier competitive list. But perhaps it's not even that, perhaps it's your local metagame where there's loads of raider spam, and I can dig it. In my area there's a lot of mech spam, a little raider spam, and lots of melta. Raider spam isn't as effective as all that, and everyone brings multiple counters.

 

Which reminds me, autocannons are also great ways to pop transports for lash, since transports are the widely abused counter to it in 5th edition, imagine that. And as I said, 3x autocannon are a more effective counter than the 2x lascannon that oblits put out just because of the sheer number of shots you can put on the board for them for the same cost. There's a good synergy there too. Pop transport w/autocannon, lash contents into a pile, plasma cannon them to death w/oblits.

 

If a support unit is effective is it spammed? Sure, but few choices are as widely spammed as oblits(for loyalists it's HF/MM speeders, because there's little in FA that is quite as effective for the cost!). Do I think a chaos list can benefit from a little more long range light armor killing power without comprimising your list? I do. And that's where our opinions differ, apparently. Could havoks be spammed? Yes. Would it be truely effective? Not really. Do I think that the inclusion of a single havok unit with autocannons would make a list potentially stronger vs the total mechanization of 5th edition(though admittedly havoks have their own problems)? Yes, I do.

 

I respect that you think otherwise, but we're just going to have to disagree on this point, which is fine. Differences of opinion are one of the defining features of the game.

Certainly if I played against the same list every time I'd get bored fast once I figured out the rock solid counter.

I'm the type of person who has to mix it up anyways, and I rarely play the same list twice with my loyalists(I have limited models for my IW so I tend to play the same list though :P ).

[Corpse.]

Sorry chillin, just a playstyle.

 

Marines most often do their damage up close, and/or in melee. Supporting their own in front. Marine firepower-only forces often get hammered by other firepower forces because they do it better.

 

So with 2 marines with 4 bolter shots up close, even if one was lost it is still similar to 1 heavy bolter at range. Your in a more oppertune position to do damage. Otherwise any ablative wounds in that havoc squad will be doing little more than picking their noses until the unit is shot up at range or charged by dedicated forces unsupported with any counter charge capable of saving them.

 

40 marines in their face or;

30 marines with 12 heavy bolters at range, 18 of them doing nothing or firing one shot each.

[Dan The Deamon]

I've played my havoc Autocannon teams in every game in the past couple of months. I'm tired of oblits, they may be good, but they are boring.

 

Redundancy can be good, but not once your list is made up of three different spammed units. My autocannons are fun, ignored by my enemy, and either crack a transport or stack wounds on a squad every single turn they are on the field. Better than my oblit spam missing all of their two lascannon shots or someone making cover. Try making 5 hull down saves against my havocs.

 

I love them.

[the jeske]

As I said there are many lighter targets autocannons are used against and heavy armor counters will be auto includes in any list as well

how and in what slots ? havocks arent free , you buy them for the same points you buy oblits. to have viable anti tank you need 4 oblits minimum , to make havocks counter enough targets[they arent LF ,so they can split fire and you cant combat squad them to go 2x5 with 2AC] you need 2 again minium , because poping a rhino per turn for 150+ points doesnt hurt the opposing army fast enough . So even if the points where there , there arent enough slots to take ahvocks as effective units. Thats all on top of them doing nothing to LR rush and av13 tanks .

 

In fact, vs a normal mech list there will be targets aplenty to use those autocannon on from turn 1.

yes and 3/4 of those lists will be in hth end of turn 2-3 [bA/SW and chaos mirror match] . sm wont care because rhinos for them are los blockers and a way to hide their tacs . each turn the rhinos got shot at its a win for them . You need pop 3-4 tanks/transports in 2 turns. A 2 havocks list will max do 2and again let us remember that to do that we had take points from troops/HQs etc because they do not come cheaper then oblits.

 

 

Sure, but few choices are as widely spammed as oblits(for loyalists it's HF/MM speeders, because there's little in FA that is quite as effective for the cost!).

DPs always 2 . spamed. drops dreads always 2 . spamed. Defilers in a hth list . always 2 minimum . spamed . oblits 4-6 . spamed. Attacks bikes with MM . 2x2 .spamed . destroyers for necrons . spamed. IG .lol spamed valks , spamed vets , . I could go on like that for every list. everything in w40k is spamed . everything. only non spamed stuff is A stuff that is 0-1 B stuff that is not played or campers .

[Zhukov]

I agree fully with everything Jeske said in here.

 

In the end Havocs are just overpriced in our codex, its as simple as that. I would love to include some autocanons in my chaos army, but I cant without taking it in the form of an overpriced and inflexible unit (the havocs) who takes up my only slots for a flexable Anti-everything unit (the Oblits). We cant take rifleman dreads, we cant take attack bikes/speeders. Our Elites and Fast Attack is just mediocre or plain bad.

[Requiemnex]

for 145pts you have 5 Marines, 4 Heavy Bolters, Icon Chaos Glory, which makes 12 shots, 8 hits, 5-7 Wounds

 

The big question for me is why not take a Dakka Predator instead? Sure we don't get it at the super cheap price of Loyalists (thats a whole other complaint of mine) but you still have a similar amount of firepower for alot cheaper.

 

Or go crazy with it and take a Havoc Launcher as well. Its still 30 points cheaper but now you have an additional S5 weapon and a TL blast one to boot!

 

First of all. hey all you Chaos lovers. Long time no see. Hope all is spiky!

 

Second... havocs have one thing over a pred.. I totally have this argument flowing through my own head all the time. You have to throw many shots at havocs being leadership 9 and I run squads of 8 or sometimes 6.

 

I run two varients.. Either 3 Missile Launchers and an Autocannon or 4 Autocannons. Either way you go its 200 pts for the squad of 8. That is roughly 4 bodies you have to smash through to start hammering into special weapons... Yes you will have unlucky games where your entire squad either goes splat or runs off the table. it happens.

 

However.... The high front side armor of the pred is amazing but in a land of 40k most of us play. Tanks dont get sniped anymore they get melta spammed. It is my belief that you get more bang for your buck with the havocs particularlly if you get to go second.

[ferrum proeliator]

I, as an iron warriors commander/warsmith, tend to use them in two configurations. I either take 4 autocannon or 4 las cannon. Sometimes both depending on job.

 

Lascannon works neatly for tank hunting and autocannons can lay down a lot of fire power which can hold back massed foe quite neatly.

[Canadin]

So it is nice to know that there are others who enjoy Autocannons,

 

Havoks may be a lil xpensive, but they hold wounds and cover saves, something I find a ton more survivable then AV 13 vs melta that I see everywhere.

 

It is a useful slot purchase as it covers both light vehicles/tanks and infantry of all sizes, It has MUCH higher chances of popping annoying things like speeders (that are spammed) and transports (which are also spammed) than 3 Lazcannon shots from blitz,

 

And they are cheaper than blitz,

[minigun762]

I would say if you're set on using Havocks, Autocannons are the #1 way to go about it. 6 guys/3 ACs is probably the best bang for your buck in most games, coming out to 150 points even which is the same as most other Chaos Heavies.