Smoke Launchers and Shooting

[wolf363839]

I raised this question to the GW staff, to no avail: Can you pop smoke on a Rhino and have the troops in back shoot out of the hatch?

 

For example, I leave my Rhino in the open on turn 1 and pop smoke at the end of the movement phase. In my shooting phase I would shoot Living Lightening (or anything else for that matter) out of the 2 fire points.

 

Legal or not??? My vote is yes, as they are separate units, each doing their own thing (assuming all conditions are met for allowing shooting).

[Karack Blackstone]

The unit popping smoke, being fired, or another behind it firing?

 

If the same or the other, I'd vote a cover save as there's alot of smoke and maybe even night fighting rules to see the enemy. At least you'd get a reroll on it. Not sure what the ruling really is, but there's my guess.

[stinkenheim]

i would say no, for the simple reason that all the other rules that prevent a vehicle from firing also prevent the unit from firing. for example a shaken or stunned vehicle prevents [assengers from shooting, and a vehicle that has moved 12" cannot fire and nor can the passengers. it therefore stands to reason that if the vehicle voluntarily gave up its shooting, by popping smoke, then the nit embarked would also give up their shooting.

assume its because the clouds of smoke obscure their view, or that the smoke prevents enemy units from pinpointing the vehicles location so embarked units would not like to give them smething to target (muzzle flashes).

[Silverwolf]

Yeh I'm with Stinkenheim on this one.

 

Basically, you've just surrounded your tank with a big cloud of smoke, which is why it can't fire at anything because it can't see them. By the same token, the guys trying to shoot from inside it also can't see anything, and as such, cannot shoot.

[wolf363839]

Good points, my thought was that the crew is busy launching the smoke (or rolling to repair an immobilized result like rhinos can do) or firing the storm bolter, leaving the transported troops free to act. I think it is different from a vehicle actually being shot and knocked around giving it a stunned result for example.

 

What then about Stormcaller or similar powers that obscure units within 6" and grant them a 5+ cover save? Obviously units can shoot from that kind of obscurity.

[Karack Blackstone]

Different rules. I was thinking on my post, which I know can be dangerous, so I'll take that statement back now.

 

As far as what smoke does, think more direct. That's why I thought it might allow shooting. Consider the fact that in most real world uses, smoke launchers fully stop shooting from a vehicle, for both the crew and anyone with a firing port.

 

Try shooting effectively through that, and you'll get an idea of why in the BRB I would posit a guess it says no vehicle that pops smoke, nor it's embarked units, may fire on the turn it pops smoke. That's a better example I would think than the one I was thinking along first.

[Grey Mage]

I disagree- the Smoke Launchers are basicly the tanks "shots" and the unit inside should fire as normal... just as if the rhino had shot its stormbolter.

[Silverwolf]

Yeh but by your thinking there Grey Mage, if a vehicle stays stationary it should then be able to pop smoke and still fire all it's other weapons.

[Grey Mage]

Yeh but by your thinking there Grey Mage, if a vehicle stays stationary it should then be able to pop smoke and still fire all it's other weapons.

Nah, my point was more along the lines of it doesnt matter how many shots the vehicle can shoot.... infantry inside it have their own special rules for what they can and cannot do.

 

Example: Dark Eldar Raider... can move 12" and fire one weapon. The unit inside cannot fire at all if they move more than 6".

 

Just because the vehicle can or cannot fire has nothing to do with wether or not the unit inside can. The vehicle 'shoots' its smoke launchers in leiu of other shooting, the people inside fire if the vehicle has moved 6" or less and theres a target in range theyd like to shoot.

 

It doesnt come up much around here... if your popping smoke your probly moving 12".

[wolf363839]

Of course our pups are Space Marines with all manner of high tech targeting devices that can see thru smoke (hell our Army can even do that in the 21st century). But I understand everybody's points, and I think the INTENT of the rules is to offer you the cover save when the entire vehicle (troops and all) forego their shooting.

 

Thanks to everybody for the quick responses. You guys rock.

[Schertenleib]

I'm with Greymage on this one. The rule says that the vehicle using the smoke launcher may not fire a weapon. The vehicle and the embarked units are separate (they can even shoot at different targets). It may not make real world sense but I'm finding more and more in this game that does not.

[Grey Mage]

Not being able to fire smoke and other weapons makes no "real world" sense anyways :).

[Valerian]

I'm with Greymage on this one. The rule says that the vehicle using the smoke launcher may not fire a weapon. The vehicle and the embarked units are separate (they can even shoot at different targets). It may not make real world sense but I'm finding more and more in this game that does not.

 

Yep, Grey Mage is correct. Try not to think about what the rule "should be", but rather just go with what is stated. Since the rules for popping smoke launchers only address how this restricts firing from the vehicle, do not assume that there are additional restrictions. These things have to be explicitly stated, not assumed.

 

V

[Hear da Lamentation]

Agreed with Grey Mage and Valerian. It's not about "what would happen in the real world", it's about what the rules actually say. (Lets face it .. there is some pretty weird stuff in the 40K universe)

 

On that basis (I dont have the rulebook here with me) from Stinkenheim's post, does it actually state that if you get a shaken / stunned result, the embarked unit can't fire? I thought it said the Crew cannot fire?

[Whamolla]

Don't you pop smoke during the shooting phase?

[Grey Mage]

Agreed with Grey Mage and Valerian. It's not about "what would happen in the real world", it's about what the rules actually say. (Lets face it .. there is some pretty weird stuff in the 40K universe)

 

On that basis (I dont have the rulebook here with me) from Stinkenheim's post, does it actually state that if you get a shaken / stunned result, the embarked unit can't fire? I thought it said the Crew cannot fire?

BRB Pg 67, "Effects of damage results on passengers:" states they cannot shoot if the vehicle has stunned or shaken affecting it.

 

 

Don't you pop smoke during the shooting phase?

BRB Pg 62, bottom right corner- says "at the end of its move".... so no.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks Grey Mage. I looked when I got home, but I still missed it. I was looking at the damage chart, then at embarked units rules for firing. Didnt remember to look at that section.