Simo429 Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Ive noticed a lot of people saying he is an unstoppable machine wondered how you all thought that 5 thunderwolves equipped with SS would fare against him and if not them what should we be looking at to take him out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Six Long Fangs and two rounds of shooting do it better, for cheaper. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Ive noticed a lot of people saying he is an unstoppable machine wondered how you all thought that 5 thunderwolves equipped with SS would fare against him and if not them what should we be looking at to take him out that should do the trick. i treat him as any carnifex or monsterous creature, meanign a few vollys of plasma followed by Wolf Guard Terminators with a few SS thrown in. has worked so far. my wolf lord killed him under this method. a good volley against him and then chargd. his Thunder Hammer sent him to meet Sanguinius without taking a single wound. The Rune Priest that accompanied the charge went to the halls of russ. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 what are you arming them with? mine generally run 3 ML's and 2 LC's Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 what are you arming them with? mine generally run 3 ML's and 2 LC's Same here for an all comers list... use the lascannons on him, the missile launchers hit enemy transports. Finish him off with the help of a couple plasmarifles. OR if your opponent is smart, hit is cover unit with the missile launchers and him with the lascannos, finish him off with more plasma. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Hengist Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I think a Rune priest or two will ruin his day once he's in 24" as he has to rely on his powers getting through our Rune Weapons. As Grey Mage has already said plenty of Firepower to soften him up should do the trick, my only fear is when he is hidden completely behind a land Raider out of sight untill the last minute. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 5 pack of blood claws with lukas might be interesting draw him in and have the final laugh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 5 pack of blood claws with lukas might be interesting draw him in and have the final laugh i disagree with any plan that has Space Wolves being sacrificed. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simo429 Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 5 pack of blood claws with lukas might be interesting draw him in and have the final laugh i disagree with any plan that has Space Wolves being sacrificed. WLK a glorius death to go down in the annals of the chapter? blood claws taking out one of the most powerful people in the galaxy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I think a Rune priest or two will ruin his day once he's in 24" as he has to rely on his powers getting through our Rune Weapons. As Grey Mage has already said plenty of Firepower to soften him up should do the trick, my only fear is when he is hidden completely behind a land Raider out of sight untill the last minute. Well remember, if theyre doing that they can always use those same lascannons that were destined for his forhead to take out the landraider. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 5 pack of blood claws with lukas might be interesting draw him in and have the final laugh i disagree with any plan that has Space Wolves being sacrificed. WLK a glorius death to go down in the annals of the chapter? blood claws taking out one of the most powerful people in the galaxy a wasteful death as there are cheaper, more efficient ways to dealing with mephiston. lets save the glory for killing traitors. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Mephiston is no different from a Monstrous Creature and we should fight him as such. He is hardly unbeatable, as he has a HUGE list of cons that put him at a huge disadvantage in many situations: Not an Independent Character No invulnerable save Entirely dependent on Psychic Powers for "killing strength" Not being an Independent Character puts him at a HUGE disadvantage because he can always be targeted. At long range chances are he'll be getting cover saves or hidden out of Line of Sight, but get up close with Meltaguns, Plasmaguns, or Arjac's hammer and watch him drop like a fly. You negate his high Toughness and his save, and with only 3 Wounds one good volley will kill him. No invulnerable save means anything you throw at him that ignores armor will put a dent on his low Wound count (considering everything we have AP 2 or 1 is S7+), and again with only 3 Wounds, he won't last long. Beyond his stats, he is entirely dependent on his 3 Psychic Powers to make him the monster that he really is. As was previously mentioned, take a Rune Priest and shut down his powers. Without them he's far weaker than other Monstrous Creatures out there. And as a side note, it is far cheaper and easier to engage him with close range firepower to kill him, than it is long-range or close combat. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Runner Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I agree with you overall, but just a small correction. He has 5 wounds not 3. Otherwise very good reasoning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 I just wonder how Meph guy is going to deal with a Daemonprince of Khorne with Blessing of the Blood god. "what you wield a Forceweapon, how cute" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 and again with only 3 Wounds, he won't last long. ? He's got 5 wounds. Shooting him is actually harder than people give him credit for - he's only in the open if your opponent is a moron. I've used him 3 times now and he's only taken 2 wounds from shooting in those games and has only died once (gangbanged by Plague Marines - the STD's probably got him). In all of my games he jump packs behind a Rhino and waits until dangerous enemy units are in range. He has very good mobility and uses that to ensure that he'll get FNP against small arms fire (SP in a Rhino gives it to him) and at the very least get a 4+ save from AP 1/2 guns. If he does get into combat with something and it doesn't have a decent Inv save or lots of wounds of something to dick psychic powers it's in a lot of trouble. Wolves have TW Lords (particularly with Storm Shields), Dreads (laugh at his S6) and Rune Priest's sticks (arguably the best all-round anti-psychic thing in the game). Of the two of those, only the WL and RP (in a tank) have the speed to put the lockdown on Meph's psyker-crazy shenanigans. If he wants to Jump Pack about the place you can stop him half of the time and force him to slog it across the field in order to batter stuff. A lot of people won't want to risk running him (even with Fleet) in case he gets exposed or he is forced into assaulting something that is not a primary target for him e.g. he has to attack a vehicle rather than the squishy unit of Long Fangs behind them. If you are going to close-range him make sure you bring enough to bury him in one go - there's no point in dumping 4 plasma shots on him because you'll only wound him once. 4 shots/3 hits/2 wounds/1 saved (always assume he has a cover save). That's not particularly impressive and it's more hope than anything that Bolters hurt him. After that he's free to eat you. Meltas (wounding on 2's), Fists and Wulfen with Wolf Standard is the way to go I reckon for GH as you'll need the extra-absorbent warm bodies to stop him bagging the Fist too early. Power Weapons are simply too weak while the Wulfen gets more attacks and with re-rolls you get more chances of rolling a '6'. Use your LF to take out transports so that he doesn't have any mobile hidey-holes. Don't waste them on Meph until he's got nowhere to run. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 He's got 5 wounds. My mistake, 5 Wounds is a lot better than 3. But I still stand by my plan of attack, and as you say, bury him in Meltas and Fists. If you are going to close-range him make sure you bring enough to bury him in one go - there's no point in dumping 4 plasma shots on him because you'll only wound him once. 4 shots/3 hits/2 wounds/1 saved (always assume he has a cover save). You only need to assume he'll have a cover save for Mathhammer. Assumptions and what-ifs mean nothing on the actual field of battle. The important thing is understanding how to beat him with the tools you have, and not just taking tools specifically to beat him. Practically speaking? Put him in a situation where he'll have to venture forth away from cover, or take cover away from him (Destroy the units around him, or punch a gap through). Isolate Mephiston and he's not particularily difficult to shoot down (or combo a Melta-bath with a Shoryuken Power-Fist (or four). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 You only need to assume he'll have a cover save for Mathhammer. Assumptions and what-ifs mean nothing on the actual field of battle. Eh, no. You always take it that you're opponent isn't a jelly baby and will play any unit the way you would play it. You play Meph by hiding him for 2 or 3 turns behind vehicles where he can't be seen and then unleash him. If you can move to where he isn't getting a cover save and you're opponent hasn't spotted this then punish him. He deserves it. The latter part of your post still stands - bag his mobile cover and force him into the open. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 You only need to assume he'll have a cover save for Mathhammer. Assumptions and what-ifs mean nothing on the actual field of battle. Eh, no. You always take it that you're opponent isn't a jelly baby and will play any unit the way you would play it. You play Meph by hiding him for 2 or 3 turns behind vehicles where he can't be seen and then unleash him. If you can move to where he isn't getting a cover save and you're opponent hasn't spotted this then punish him. He deserves it. Perhaps you misunderstand me. There is no point assuming Mephiston will always have cover, or that he'll always be in Line of Sight. There is no point assuming he'll always get his Psychic Powers off, and there's no point assuming what kind of damage he'll do or what he'll go after against your units. That is because all of these things are out of your control. There's no point basing any type of strategy on these kind of assumptions because they may not always be the case. You CAN assume your opponent will use Mephiston in a smart manner; so you simply need to be smarter. You do this by understanding Mephiston's strengths and weaknesses. You do this by thinking about how your opponent is going to support Mephiston, and in doing so you can better understand how to take away this support. Might Mephiston have cover? Sure. Then don't try and put insane amounts of heavy firepower into Mephiston to try and by-pass that cover save (in fact, he could just as easily fail those saves too, but I won't get into that). It will probably be more ideal for you to first take that cover away (perhaps even before this "cover" becomes a problem, either by crafty terrain placement, how you deploy, and by analyzing your opponent's army) expending less effort, and then putting what heavy firepower you can afford to knock a few wounds of Mephiston. Is your opponent fielding a lot of vehicles? If they are, chances are they'll create mobile walls for Mephiston to run up behind. Kill them and you cripple not only Mephiston but the rest of his army. Mathhammer and Theoryhammer can only get you so far, and it's never a matter of taking tools X or Y to counter unit Z. Never forget that objectives above all should take precedence in 5th edition, and that they should not be sacrificed for killing Mephiston. Again understand Mephiston's weaknesses and strengths, and even if you can't stop him, you'll know how to mitigate his damage so that you can focus on the rest of his army and on the objectives. EDIT: I should also stress and clarify the distinction between simply "knowing" how to beat him (or in fact anything), and "understanding" how to beat him. To have knowledge of how is to simply know which tools work, which won't, what is more effective and what isn't. But you might not always understand why. And what happens if those tools are taken away from you? Or if you don't have them on hand? Through understanding, you can begin to think in a much broader scope to incorporate other tools that might not be blatantly obvious, or if you're playing other armies you'll understand what tools you'll need to use. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucasLAD Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Wolf lord w/SS and a TH accompanied by 2 wolves and attached to a 10-15 strong fen wolf pack. Assuming that you have a decent amount of dogs with you when the fight comes you should win the battle of attrition. Barring that you should get at least one wound which will put him at I1 and worst case you kill each other. With the cost of things in the BA codex there are going to be some gaps in your opponents army if he is taking mephiston. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Wolf lord w/SS and a TH accompanied by 2 wolves and attached to a 10-15 strong fen wolf pack. Assuming that you have a decent amount of dogs with you when the fight comes you should win the battle of attrition. Barring that you should get at least one wound which will put him at I1 and worst case you kill each other. With the cost of things in the BA codex there are going to be some gaps in your opponents army if he is taking mephiston. How does this prevent Meph from just targeting you (an IC in close combat) and smoking you outright with his higher initiative force weapon before you even get a chance to hit him with your TH? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 You do this by thinking about how your opponent is going to support Mephiston, and in doing so you can better understand how to take away this support. Completely agreed on this. When you talk about a unit and how to kill it you never do so in a vacuum i.e. "Throw a Dread at him!" There are always other factors to be taken into account such as support units (FNP buffs), army sizes (higher points games get more guns) and even terrain (more terrain = more cover). Mathshammer (not mathhammer, fecking American-English) tends to take things within a vacuum and the best way I can think of to compare this to would be to line your armies up on a table with no cover and just run at each other. Then you can apply your mathshammer to your heart's content. It's for this reason that when I run some numbers I always assume that I'm playing someone competent that will not simply roll forward into the open and will make it hard for me to take out his toys. Thus, the assumption that the target always has a cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Yeah, I dont like Mathhammer.... What I DO like is theres no stormraven kit. Hes not Actually a monstrous creature guys... he could very well hop into a transport, or even start in a stormraven. 24" move, 2" disembark, 6" charge..... nothing to stop that nonsense. That abomination should never have been made. *sighs* Ohwell, back to missile launchers and lascannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 Yeah, I dont like Mathhammer.... What I DO like is theres no stormraven kit. Hes not Actually a monstrous creature guys... he could very well hop into a transport, or even start in a stormraven. 24" move, 2" disembark, 6" charge..... nothing to stop that nonsense. That abomination should never have been made. *sighs* Ohwell, back to missile launchers and lascannons. You can't disembark normally out of a vehicle that moves Flat Out (that is, more than 12"). Only 2 vehicles have exceptions to this rule: Storm Raven Valkyrie/Vendetta Both require a special type of deployment in order for the troops inside to disembark if the vehicle moves 12.1" or more, whereby they pick a point the vehicle moved over, and deploy via Deep Strike (to which you can't Assault afterwards. The best you could manage is: Storm Raven moves 12" Mephiston Disembarks 2", and Fleets 1" - 6" Mephiston Charges 6" At worst 21", at best 26". Still disgusting though, but at that point you can just shoot the Storm Raven. Or if you're particularily crafty, cover every Access/Exit point on the Storm Raven, and then Wreck it. This will force Mephiston to make an Emergency Disembarkation, whereby he is deployed within 2" of any part of the vehicle, but may do nothing his next turn. Then you shoot him to hell with Meltaguns or whatever else tickles your fancy. :) DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormbrow II Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 24" move, 2" disembark, 6" charge..... nothing to stop that nonsense. Stop overreacting. If the Stormraven moves flat out and Meph hops out then he Deep Strikes behind the Stormraven. If he scatters (4/6 chance) he takes a DTT with a 1/6 chance of wounding himself? Not only does this happen but he cannot assault. Wait - you mean you're going to leave him in front of my army for a turn and NOT assault me? Score. Yes, he can take up space in a transport but he displaces the unit that it is bought for. Are you really going to see opponents running their more vulnerable Troops choices so that Meph can move slightly faster without having to take a psychic test? No - in most instances the trade-off simply isn't worth it even if there is a FNP buff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted April 13, 2010 Share Posted April 13, 2010 In many scenarios the stormraven will be able to move past my troops.... the distance between armies in some cases is as little as 10". And Im not over-reacting, I just dont think any marine should have a fast skimmer transport, its like giving dwarves heavy cavalry. *note... you move forward 24", drop him off just behind the flight stand, move 2" to the side, and then assault 6".... Is it risky? It could be, depending on the board. Is it very powerful? Most certainly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/198145-dealing-with-mephiston/#findComment-2360795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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