Ahriman of the thousand sons

[kalicurealm]

I've been slowly reading through the Thousand sons novel as I'm also reading through the 5th black company novel by Glen Cook and I just can't shake the feeling that Ahriman has Attention Defisate Disorder (add) or something - it seems to me like every third paragraph is about ahriman zoning out on something. Maybe he just has a Peter Pan complex but damn, for a character I've always been so interested in I'm being disappointed. Does anyone else agree?

 

P.S.

I'm also finding Magnus to be a wuss. Wise, perhaps, but a wimp nevertheless.

infact his captains (Ahriman aside) seem far more potent/ heroic then he himself.

[mob16151]

Really? I found magnus to be awesome. He gives off this sense of massive strength, thats just hidden. And as for Ahriman, the dude is awesome. The only times I can think of him zoniung out is during the enumerations. Is that what your talking about?

[Aqatone]

I was quite pleased with how Ahriman was portrayed. Magnus... muh. 50/50 for me. He was so far up his own backside but always had good intentions, just thought himself a bit too good. Phosis T'kar was one of my favourites along with Hathor Maat,

sad ending for phosis though. And Maat as well really. Auramagma's demise was just nasty, I actually felt sorry for him

[Rorschach]

Potential spoilers.

 

My biggest gripe with Ahriman is how inconsistent his power level is throughout the novel.

 

At Aghoru, we first spend several chapters being told how mighty and extremely skilled he is, how there's no one surpassing him bar the Crimson King himself. Then, the first time we actually witness his travelling the Great Ocean, he is straight out outskilled by Wyrdmake, and then again in the mountains, the other Captains are upholding a far better concentration and mental defence than him. Then, down in the cave, him and Wyrdmake are suddenly equals fighting their way towards the ledge, before we're back to "most skilled sorcerer" again during the assault on the Ark Reach. His complete breakdown in the face of Magnus' wrath on Nikaea is understandable, though I feel that McNeill fails to convey the absolute lethality of the attack Ahriman endures, and thus, kind of strips him of the potence required to survive such an ordeal.

 

Futhermore, I question the friendship between Ahriman and Lemuel. In his position, having been among the absolute first of the Thousand Sons, it's natural to assume Ahriman having had several neophytes before Lemuel, neophytes that have grown to become Corvidae themselves. I find it illogical that someone depicted as emotionally deprived (except the sole sorrow over Ohrzmud) and stone cold logical as Ahriman would enter into a friendship with a mortal, especially considering we are at a very early stage informed that he keeps even the other captains at such distance that he does not truly count them as friends, but rather compatirots.

 

Overall, I see the point McNeill is trying to achieve with the Ahriman character, I just think his methods of presenting the character is flawed, and brings the wrong light on him. As a result, the character suffers, and during the hospital scene after Magnus' return from Horus and Erebus, I found him to appear more than anything a weakling, an apprentice to Ankhu Anen more than his Chief Librarian.

 

Generally speaking, all the Thousand Sons captains display this lack of consistency, but it's especially visible in the character of Ahriman.

[Aqatone]

There was never any friendship between Ahriman and Lemuel I think, it was all for show. As it was mentioned, he doesn't consider any of his comrades friends when they are living, only when dead would he then consider them a friend. I do wonder if another writer would have achieved a more stable level of consistency with the characters.

[Mr. Sandbot]

SPOILERS

I disagree with you Aqatone. Toward the end Ahriman shows some remorse for his actions to Kallista and even apologizes to Lemuel which could imply he felt some form of friendship with Lemuel. I don't even think it was for show either since Magnus' orders were to befriend and learn about the remembrancers.

Nonetheless, I feel as though McNeil just didn't portray the relationships in the book right at all. I think they might as well have just let Dan Abnett have free reign over both books.

 

I agree with you 100% though Rorschach. There were times in this book where I felt it was more centered around how much power the rune priests have at their finger tips rather than the Thousand Sons. The inconsistency is further brought out when Wyrdmake goes down in to Ahriman with barely even a fight. Throughout the book, there is little to no evidence to really show that Ahriman is anything more than just an average captain. If anything, it seems as though Phosis T'Kar or Uthizzar are the actual Chief librarians while Ahriman is just there.

 

Unrelated rant-

(on a kinda unrelated note, I hate Graham McNeil's random killing sprees. It seems like in every one of his books some character needs to die a horribly painful/humiliating/senseless death just because luck wasn't on their side or some minor detail McNeil gleefully made the characters ignorant about. For example, in this book, Auramagma has his powers reflected back onto him from Russ and then screams while running around on fire. Not exactly Astartes like since these guys take bullets to the face on a daily basis and rather odd because he had complete control over his powers beforehand [actually, all the Thousand Sons captains did except Phael Toron] which brings to question why at that exact moment he had lost control over them. I can understand the statement McNeil is attempting to make, but he needs to refine his process more [to be fair he has been doing that, but its still not enough in my eyes])

Apologies for the wall of text.

[Aqatone]

I can't say I'd complain if Abnett wrote all the books... he's one of the few writers I can enjoy reading without having to think "wait... what?". And the Auramagma part, as I mentioned I found pretty good - I guess it's down to how you imagine it really. I wasn't too overly fussed with the details as I'd gotten so far into the book I'd given up and just went with it. And don't get me started on the showdown with Wydrmake that was the DEFINITION of anti climax for me.

[Mr. Sandbot]

Go right ahead and rant about it if you want,because I'm still absolutely baffled by that fight. Always good to know someone agrees.

I guess it is down to how you imagine it. I had it in my head that he ran around like Denethor during Lord of the Rings: Return of the King while he was on fire.

The reason I'm fussy with this is because the one thing I really enjoyed about the Thousand Sons is their background. Not being fussy about it is like watching a new rendition of the Mona Lisa being painted, and then replacing the original. Sure they both have their merits, but the general gist of what came before should still exist in the new. I feel like McNeil did not do that at all.

[kalicurealm]

Hmm.. sorry I won't be able to contribute much to this thread regarding anything other than Ahriman (as I said, I haven't finished it) but it wasn't just the enumerations - it was the lapses he would fall into in the middle of combat and the reflections, for instance on his way up to the mountain and when he is in the warp, gets injured and is saved by the rune priest. I feel as though the only genuine character in the novel, thus far at least, is Ahriman and he has some serious concentration issues. At least imho.

[Hellios]

I haven't read the book but with what people say about Big.A. being rather Meh... but skill and power are not the same thing and although I've always seen Big.A. as both powerful and skilled (at least in 40K, I guess he has time to grow) it could also depend on the type of power he is using. For example he might not be good at conjuring warp lightening but great at teleporting and seeing that which is hidden *makes wooo noises*.

 

Also everyone has good days and bad days.. and the bad days are often the most interesting (hence they go in the book) and the sacking of your planet is certainly a bad day.

[pingo]

I think that because Ahriman's powers lie in divinating the future, his powers aren't as obvious because they don't shoot out of his hands and explode in someone's face. Further, the Cordivae had found their command of the Great Ocean waning in recent times. As the book progressed, Ahriman was able to gain more power from the aether.

 

He was plenty powerful really. I mean, he fought off the flesh change by pure force of will. While owning Wyrdmake (which, I admit, was a bit of an odd final conflict).

 

I liked Ahriman overall.

 

Oh, and I think Auramagma screaming in agony was fine. His soul was being consumed by terrible aetheric fire in the most horrible way. It was beyond something as trivial as physical pain. Even the Wolves pitied him, and that's saying something.

[Mr. Sandbot]

I'm more so bothered that Auramagma would just suddenly lose all control over his powers and then get burned by them. Sure he shot his last fireball at Russ, but he's a pyromancer isn't he? Can't he just control the fire to go around him or divert it harmlessly? (thus not hurting him) it seems like the Pyrae are more than capable of manipulating the flames they create (for example, Khalophis in the woods with Camille) which is why I'm wondering why Auramagma would suddenly lose all control in that one moment after firing a shot at Russ and then continue to have no power over his flames as they burned him.

(to be fair, I understand the literary statement McNeil is trying to make with it, but it still seems out of place)

 

I liked Ahriman too. But the part in the cave where Ahriman seemed to be the only one having issues with his concentration and mental defenses (as rorschach put it) was a little much for me. Come to think of it, Kalicurealm may be right. Ahriman may have ADD.

 

@Hellios, The book portrays him as being outdone by a Rune priest. The only time I recall them even having Ahriman appear powerful is when they are on Shrike predicting the future. I mean, his skill is in divination, but I'm pretty sure there are ways to show the ability to see into the future as a huge boon mid-battle just to emphasize to the audience that Ahriman is indeed the top dog of the Sorcerer bunch.

[Kizzdougs]

Ahriman's power increases throughout the book.it is explained that the power of each of the cults is constantly in flux.at the beginning of the book the power of the corvidae is at its lowest ebb,this explanes why pyrae are so dominant in the early conflicts,their power is at its hight compared to the corvidae.

by the end of the book Ahriman's powers are much increased by changes in the warp and therefore he is able to crush Wyrdmake with relative ease.

 

the power of the thousand sons is limited by the state of the warp.so even though Ahriman is the chief librarian,if the warp dose not favour the corvidae he can be over powered by a librarian he would usually dispatch without to much trouble.

[kalicurealm]

Ahriman's power increases throughout the book.it is explained that the power of each of the cults is constantly in flux.at the beginning of the book the power of the corvidae is at its lowest ebb,this explanes why pyrae are so dominant in the early conflicts,their power is at its hight compared to the corvidae.

by the end of the book Ahriman's powers are much increased by changes in the warp and therefore he is able to crush Wyrdmake with relative ease.

 

the power of the thousand sons is limited by the state of the warp.so even though Ahriman is the chief librarian,if the warp dose not favour the corvidae he can be over powered by a librarian he would usually dispatch without to much trouble.

The whole... cult thing just seems very limiting to me - why wouldn't the chief librarian have knowledge of all cults? And/or be reasonably skilled in all facets of the cults? The cults just seem very...strange for the thousand sons imo.

[kalicurealm]

Ahriman's power increases throughout the book.it is explained that the power of each of the cults is constantly in flux.at the beginning of the book the power of the corvidae is at its lowest ebb,this explanes why pyrae are so dominant in the early conflicts,their power is at its hight compared to the corvidae.

by the end of the book Ahriman's powers are much increased by changes in the warp and therefore he is able to crush Wyrdmake with relative ease.

 

the power of the thousand sons is limited by the state of the warp.so even though Ahriman is the chief librarian,if the warp dose not favour the corvidae he can be over powered by a librarian he would usually dispatch without to much trouble.

The whole... cult thing just seems very limiting to me - why wouldn't the chief librarian have knowledge of all cults? And/or be reasonably skilled in all facets of the cults? The cults just seem very...strange for the thousand sons imo.

[kalicurealm]

Ahriman's power increases throughout the book.it is explained that the power of each of the cults is constantly in flux.at the beginning of the book the power of the corvidae is at its lowest ebb,this explanes why pyrae are so dominant in the early conflicts,their power is at its hight compared to the corvidae.

by the end of the book Ahriman's powers are much increased by changes in the warp and therefore he is able to crush Wyrdmake with relative ease.

 

the power of the thousand sons is limited by the state of the warp.so even though Ahriman is the chief librarian,if the warp dose not favour the corvidae he can be over powered by a librarian he would usually dispatch without to much trouble.

The whole... cult thing just seems very limiting to me - why wouldn't the chief librarian have knowledge of all cults? And/or be reasonably skilled in all facets of the cults? The cults just seem very...strange for the thousand sons imo.

[Rorschach]

I liked Ahriman too. But the part in the cave where Ahriman seemed to be the only one having issues with his concentration and mental defenses (as rorschach put it) was a little much for me. Come to think of it, Kalicurealm may be right. Ahriman may have ADD.

Or maybe just McNeill isn't very good at character depth, and uses this constantly "off" focus to create an image of Ahriman as a mysterious, unfathomable warrior? It's vaguely similar to Pasanius in the Ultramarines novels, and both Forrix and the Warsmith in Storm of Iron as well. McNeill often creates character moods by employing cinematic drama effects that's very hard to translate to literature, and it really is one of his weaknesses as a writer - his love of cinematographic imagery is often very shaped around what I percieve as images in his head regarding the situation. I more often than with any other BL author have trouble translating McNeill's descriptions into mental images myself.

 

Though I would love for the ADD theory to bear some weight though, I still think it's a bit off. We're talking about the Chief Librarian of the Corvidae of the Thousand Sons, after all. I really think he's possibly the least qualified Astartes ever for a mental deficit, no matter how minor :huh:

 

Spoilers below!

 

Oh, and I think Auramagma screaming in agony was fine. His soul was being consumed by terrible aetheric fire in the most horrible way. It was beyond something as trivial as physical pain. Even the Wolves pitied him, and that's saying something.

Auramagma's death is trivial. Like Sirius Black in the Harry Potter books, or Boromir in The Lord of the Rings, Auramagma is hardly an "unkillabale main character", he's a named character with the purpose of being just that - a named character. Killing a named character always creates dramatic tension, even if their impact on the story up to their death is practically nothing. Auramagma serves this purpose - he's a storyteller's tool, more than anything. His death being highly spectacular only makes it a more powerful tool, adding to the feeling that it's a considerable blow to the Thousand Sons.

 

Uthizzar's death, on the other hand, was extremely brutal. No cool cinematics, but execution of a highly important character in the stroke of a sentence. Intense.

[Sons of Horus]

well i like Phosis T'kar the most of all the characters in the novel however I don't mind how Ahriman was portrayed at all

[Mr. Sandbot]

But see, thats where I have issues with Auramagma's death. Phosis T'kar's death was handled beautifully, it got the point across, and it served a larger function to the story.

I felt Auramagma's death didn't do any of the above. As you said, he just went out in such a trivial manner without lending anything to the overall plot. He just died. Maybe its because I've spent too much time pouring over pieces of literature, but it just seems that every character should play some role or give some sort of point to the overall plot.

 

@kizzdougs, I'm not saying that Ahriman or the Corvidae's powers was weak at that point in time. It was understandable. But I'm pointing out how inconsistent it is for his mental fortitude and concentration to be outclassed by just about everyone else. The ebbs of the warp shouldn't have any effect on Ahriman's given character qualities.

 

Oh and the cults are fine imo. Having each cult specialize into one aspect is akin to how there are different styles of kung-fu that specialize on different techniques. What I didn't understand was the lack of cult mixing. I don't quite understand whats stopping an Athanean from learning Pyrae tricks. If there isn't anything (which I think is implied in the beginning), then I think McNeil may need to have made that point more clear.

[pingo]

I think it's wrong to think of these apparent lapses in concentration being so extreme. Just because it takes so much text in the book, doesn't mean the lapse is as long as it takes to read it.

 

I took it as Ahriman's consciousness exploring concepts and ideas in something akin to outside of normal time. Like it was all going on in his head in a fleeting moment, or Ahriman could perceive two worlds at once: that within, and that without.

 

And also, we shouldn't lose sight that sometimes a story is just a story. Doesn't always have to have a deeper meaning.

[Eetion]

Oh and the cults are fine imo. Having each cult specialize into one aspect is akin to how there are different styles of kung-fu that specialize on different techniques. What I didn't understand was the lack of cult mixing. I don't quite understand whats stopping an Athanean from learning Pyrae tricks. If there isn't anything (which I think is implied in the beginning), then I think McNeil may need to have made that point more clear.

 

I believe I can answer that.

 

Ahriman was telling Lemuel how the Great crusade started, he soon discovered he could divine the future while his brother could cast lightning in thin air.

Lemuel could read auras and emotions, but completely failed at divining where the cards would land at the house. Thus Ahriman recommended time with the Athanaeans. This seems to indicate that some powers are innate and learning new ones may not even be possible.

 

This leads me to suspect that the cults of the Thousand Sons are not some School for Wizards where spells are taught. It refines and develops skills that an individual already has.

Ahriman can not learn Pyrae tricks, as they are may not be tricks he can learn. He is confined to his own skills, and talents.

 

I cant back it up really except with those general observations of the book. But it seems to make sense to me.

[Mr. Sandbot]

Oh and the cults are fine imo. Having each cult specialize into one aspect is akin to how there are different styles of kung-fu that specialize on different techniques. What I didn't understand was the lack of cult mixing. I don't quite understand whats stopping an Athanean from learning Pyrae tricks. If there isn't anything (which I think is implied in the beginning), then I think McNeil may need to have made that point more clear.

 

I believe I can answer that.

 

Ahriman was telling Lemuel how the Great crusade started, he soon discovered he could divine the future while his brother could cast lightning in thin air.

Lemuel could read auras and emotions, but completely failed at divining where the cards would land at the house. Thus Ahriman recommended time with the Athanaeans. This seems to indicate that some powers are innate and learning new ones may not even be possible.

 

This leads me to suspect that the cults of the Thousand Sons are not some School for Wizards where spells are taught. It refines and develops skills that an individual already has.

Ahriman can not learn Pyrae tricks, as they are may not be tricks he can learn. He is confined to his own skills, and talents.

 

I cant back it up really except with those general observations of the book. But it seems to make sense to me.

 

The one problem with this is on page 553 where Ahriman suddenly blasts Khaphed with lightning and fire (McNeil inappropriately attributes fire to the Pavoni). It seems like he has the capability to learn Pyrae tricks, but it could also be that he can only transcend whatever keeps him from the other cult's abilities on the planet of the Sorcerers. It still shows he can perform them though.

 

I could be wrong and reading this the wrong way though :blush:

[Retributis]

Maybe he can do them, but not as well as he can foretell the future or the pyrae can? And Auramagma's death was used to portray the turning of their (whats the word... familiars?) against them as they start to stop feigning aid and are seen as the true daemons they are, as his became jealous of the power he was wielding in the form of the titan.

[Mr. Sandbot]

Maybe he can do them, but not as well as he can foretell the future or the pyrae can? And Auramagma's death was used to portray the turning of their (whats the word... familiars?) against them as they start to stop feigning aid and are seen as the true daemons they are, as his became jealous of the power he was wielding in the form of the titan.

Thats Khalophis your thinking of. Auramagma was the one who tried to burn Russ and in turn got burned by his own flames then proceeded to run around screaming until he died. Its on page 516 starting on the second paragraph.

[Retributis]

Ah yeah course it is, bumcakes.