Ahriman of the thousand sons

[Eetion]

The one problem with this is on page 553 where Ahriman suddenly blasts Khaphed with lightning and fire (McNeil inappropriately attributes fire to the Pavoni). It seems like he has the capability to learn Pyrae tricks, but it could also be that he can only transcend whatever keeps him from the other cult's abilities on the planet of the Sorcerers. It still shows he can perform them though.

 

I could be wrong and reading this the wrong way though :)

 

Ah, but it also it says they lept from his fingers as naturally as if he had been trained by those cults since birth. It seems to me those skills are wholly unatural for Ahriman and not something he expected, I would attribute them to more being on the Planet of Sorcerors or infused with a measure of Magnus's knowledge, rather that it being a 'natural skill.

[Mr. Sandbot]

I can agree with that, but it does show that Ahriman as the potential to be able to pull it off, which is why I'm wondering why he wouldn't just buckle down and learn them anyway. Despite it being unnatural for him.

[kalicurealm]

Wow, you guys plied on without me!

I never considered the part where Ahriman is infused with MAgnus' powers. Never even thought of it.

 

On the ADD note though, I'm convinced he has it - on numerous occassions throughout the novel Ahriman gets disturbed from his "concentration" and seems like he wasn't even aware that he had retreated into his own mind - a fact which by the way is further proven (in my eyes at least) by the fact that his psychic wards seem to be demolished considerably faster then anyone elses'.

 

All in all I liked the book but I just feel like it had a lot of bad explinations.

 

*SPOILER*

I was especially annoyed by the fact that Magnus clearly bargained with Tzeentch to save his legion but that the Emperor, humanities greatest psyker, didn't detect the slightest bit of corruption within magnus. (though I suppose it is possible that he did and didnt act on it?)

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Its not that the Emperer did not detect the Tzeentch deal of Magnus, it was the fact he seemed to just be letting the Thousand Sons suffer the flesh change right in front of him and not stop it.

[randian]

I was especially annoyed by the fact that Magnus clearly bargained with Tzeentch to save his legion but that the Emperor, humanities greatest psyker, didn't detect the slightest bit of corruption within magnus. (though I suppose it is possible that he did and didnt act on it?)

There is a simpler explanation: Magnus wasn't corrupt. Chaos corrupts because the power it gives taints the soul. Tzeentch didn't give Magnus the power to save his legion, Tzeentch accomplished that directly. Since Magnus didn't wield the energy himself, he was not tainted by it. Remember Tzeentch is playing the long game, trapping Magnus in a web of promises and circumstance. Tzeentch didn't require the direct corruption of Magnus in order to win him to his side. In the end Magnus couldn't go through with his plan to sacrifice his legion to Russ. It was this final bargain with Tzeentch, to have his spirit ripped from his body, free to surf the Great Ocean forever as one of its great powers, that accomplished the corruption of Magnus. Even then, as the end of A Thousand Sons portrays, Magnus' initial efforts on behalf of Tzeentch weren't exactly done with alacrity and enthusiasm. Enthusiasm would come later, in my opinion a corrupting side effect of his newfound ability to directly experience and perceive the warp.

[Lady_Mournival]

Generally speaking, all the Thousand Sons captains display this lack of consistency.....

 

That's not true, my idol and favourite character in the Horus Heresy series Kalophis is completely consistent: gruff, destructive, arrogant, kills everyone :P

[Mr. Sandbot]

I loved Khalophis. I wished he didn't die from the titan exploding and was able to smite some more foes with his flames of justice then die to a space wolf trying to protect his brothers like he did that remembrancer. I mean, I felt like the only reason Graham McNeil let Khalophis show off all his cool fire spells before the battle of Prospero was to make up for him not using any of them during the actual battle.

[kalicurealm]

I was especially annoyed by the fact that Magnus clearly bargained with Tzeentch to save his legion but that the Emperor, humanities greatest psyker, didn't detect the slightest bit of corruption within magnus. (though I suppose it is possible that he did and didnt act on it?)

There is a simpler explanation: Magnus wasn't corrupt. Chaos corrupts because the power it gives taints the soul. Tzeentch didn't give Magnus the power to save his legion, Tzeentch accomplished that directly. Since Magnus didn't wield the energy himself, he was not tainted by it. Remember Tzeentch is playing the long game, trapping Magnus in a web of promises and circumstance. Tzeentch didn't require the direct corruption of Magnus in order to win him to his side. In the end Magnus couldn't go through with his plan to sacrifice his legion to Russ. It was this final bargain with Tzeentch, to have his spirit ripped from his body, free to surf the Great Ocean forever as one of its great powers, that accomplished the corruption of Magnus. Even then, as the end of A Thousand Sons portrays, Magnus' initial efforts on behalf of Tzeentch weren't exactly done with alacrity and enthusiasm. Enthusiasm would come later, in my opinion a corrupting side effect of his newfound ability to directly experience and perceive the warp.

 

Hmm... That is a very interesting point that I never took into consideration, brother. I was always under the impression that merely consorting with the Dark Powers was enough to damn oneself. On a side note, however, surely The Emperor who himself could not halt the flesh change suspected something of Magnus' dealings in the warp? Though perhaps it was his ability to do what The Emperor couldn't (or didn't?) that solidified his would be position of being placed upon the golden throne...

 

On an additional side note something else that Radian has caused me to consider is this: This is the first time I have been shown in the HH series WHY a terran would place primarch over The Emperor (ie Ahriman). The reason of course being that Magnus did what The Emperor couldn't or wouldn't do. Stop the flesh change.

 

Interesting...

[randian]

On a side note, however, surely The Emperor who himself could not halt the flesh change suspected something of Magnus' dealings in the warp? Though perhaps it was his ability to do what The Emperor couldn't (or didn't?) that solidified his would be position of being placed upon the golden throne...

The Emperor probably thought that the halting of mutation meant that the Thousand Sons stopped using sorcery, not that Magnus continued to do what was forbidden by Him.

[kalicurealm]

Hmm that doesn't exactly make sense though. There were complaints of the Thousand Sons using sorcery during the halting of the flesh change. I mean it was the petitions for the censure of Magnus that LED to the gathering on Nikea.

 

Remember, Magnus wasn't forbiddon to use sorcery until after Nikea. He was only told not to look too deeply into the warp, lest as our famous poet said the [warp] look back into [him].

[Kizzdougs]

I'm really enjoying reading this thread, lots of interesting ideas and intelligent discusion. good work guys.

 

In my opinion the ADD question and Ahriman's apparent loss of concentration could, perhaps, be answered by the fact that as a high ranking librarian he is almost constantly "living" on at least two different planes of reality.He lives as much in the warp as in the "real" world.He is constantly bombarded with vast amounts of information, much of wich requires careful interpretation. The "Enumerations" are intended to create the emotional detachment and mental focus that is needed when dealing with the powers of the warp.But even with the "Enumerations" imagine how confusing it could get being aware in the two very different realms of reality.

 

When his powers are at their peak Ahriman is just as much a mental resident of the warp as he is of the real world.

When the warp is clouded to him i imagine it would be something like having a broken radio constantly playing in the back of his head, snatches of potentially vital information that you can't quite grasp.

 

How distracting would that be? most of us have trouble concentrating in ONE reality let alone TWO!

[kalicurealm]

I'm really enjoying reading this thread, lots of interesting ideas and intelligent discusion. good work guys.

 

In my opinion the ADD question and Ahriman's apparent loss of concentration could, perhaps, be answered by the fact that as a high ranking librarian he is almost constantly "living" on at least two different planes of reality.He lives as much in the warp as in the "real" world.He is constantly bombarded with vast amounts of information, much of wich requires careful interpretation. The "Enumerations" are intended to create the emotional detachment and mental focus that is needed when dealing with the powers of the warp.But even with the "Enumerations" imagine how confusing it could get being aware in the two very different realms of reality.

 

When his powers are at their peak Ahriman is just as much a mental resident of the warp as he is of the real world.

When the warp is clouded to him i imagine it would be something like having a broken radio constantly playing in the back of his head, snatches of potentially vital information that you can't quite grasp.

 

How distracting would that be? most of us have trouble concentrating in ONE reality let alone TWO!

 

Hmm.. I'm curious though, the author always walks us through the leaving of and returning to his physical body. I guess that I thought he was only in two realities when he was moving around the warp with his body of light; furthermore I thought that the enumerations were merely to remove distractions or take advantage of different parts of the mind (ie. I thought it was kind of like the astartes organ that allows them to shut off different parts of their brains).

 

Anyways, I'm also enjoying this thread!

 

P.S.

Sorry if I insulted anyone with the ADD comments. No insult intended.

[Kizzdougs]

Kalicurealm.

 

No offence taken what so ever. I realise my conclusion may have been a bit confusing.Sorry.

I am fortunate enough not to have ADD.

 

Yeah i think the enumerations are a kind of meditative state of mind that allows the librarian to concerntrait more on the mental level and blocks his emotional "interference".

 

more latter

[MuGGzy]

I am only about 2/3 through the book but I find myself feeling like the K Sons are actually one of the MOST loyal chapters, which I am sure is intended and makes the Rubric all the more tragic.

Also, the book has made me completely dislike the Space Wolves, I was neutral before, not knowing much about them, but the book makes them seem like a bunch of ignorant barbaric idiots. I kept hoping that more of them would get killed.

[kalicurealm]

I am only about 2/3 through the book but I find myself feeling like the K Sons are actually one of the MOST loyal chapters, which I am sure is intended and makes the Rubric all the more tragic.

Also, the book has made me completely dislike the Space Wolves, I was neutral before, not knowing much about them, but the book makes them seem like a bunch of ignorant barbaric idiots. I kept hoping that more of them would get killed.

 

They are one of the most loyal chapters which is the irony of the novel.

 

Did you know that there is a second part to A Thousand Sons coming out called Prospero Burns? It is supposedly about events leading up to the attack on Prospero from the Wolves perspective. That said, I would reserve judgement until it is released :lol:

[Lady_Mournival]

I am only about 2/3 through the book but I find myself feeling like the K Sons are actually one of the MOST loyal chapters, which I am sure is intended and makes the Rubric all the more tragic.

Also, the book has made me completely dislike the Space Wolves, I was neutral before, not knowing much about them, but the book makes them seem like a bunch of ignorant barbaric idiots. I kept hoping that more of them would get killed.

You forgot traitorous; damn you russ and othere wyrdmake!!!!!! damn you....

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

this is starting to look more like fox news every day...

 

WLK

[Mr. Sandbot]

this is starting to look more like fox news every day...

 

WLK

 

Do you mean the ridiculous amounts of bias toward one party (the wolves) in blind favor of the other (Thousand Sons)?

If so, then yeah. I mean to be fair, I love the Thousand Sons to death, but they're no more a perfect legion than the Wolves are. Plus, the wolves are coming from their own perspective on the matter in the books (I still prefer the Sons's POV though). Even without Prospero Burns, if you look at how their society is built you can understand it a little more on why they're shifty eyed toward the Sons, which is why its such a tragedy. They're both such great legions going at each other's throats due to the philosophies that raised them.

I hope Abnett gets this sentiment across.

[Kizzdougs]

I am only about 2/3 through the book but I find myself feeling like the K Sons are actually one of the MOST loyal chapters, which I am sure is intended and makes the Rubric all the more tragic.

Also, the book has made me completely dislike the Space Wolves, I was neutral before, not knowing much about them, but the book makes them seem like a bunch of ignorant barbaric idiots. I kept hoping that more of them would get killed.

 

 

The Space Wolves were manipulated by Horus :tu: . They are a noble and courages legion but Horus used their natural superstition of psykers to turn the Thousand Son into traitors. Horus used his power as Warmaster to convince Russ to destroy the Thousand Sons instead of capturing Magnus and returning him to Terra as the Emperor ordered. The Warmaster knew that Magnus would side with him after the Wolves destroyed his legion. It also served the purpose of weakening the the Space Wolves before the heresy.

 

So the Wolves are not as bad as "A thousand sons" sugests. They are so firmly loyal to the Emperor and therefore the Warmaster they don't question their orders. However their superstition and un accepting nature is a drawback.