Unstoppable tyranids

[Charliemachina]

How can you take on Nids I am getting better but can't take them i'd like general advice and a suggestion as to which of my unit might give me sucess.

 

I have:

3 10 man squads of assualt marines (can have flamers and power fists)

1 10 man Vanguard Jump Pack squad (lots of upgrades)

2 10 man non Jump pack vanguard marines (lots of upgrades)

4 10 man Tactical squads las cannon/flamers (can add power fists)

3 10 man scout squads with 2CCW and power fists

10 Dreds (las cannon, assualt cannon, venerable, flamers, 1 ironclad, double, auto cannon)

15 Assualt terminators

20 Tactical terminators

1 10 man Devestator squad (4 Missile launchers)

3 Vindicators

2 Land raider crusaders

No Rhinos - I know these would help against Nids but don't want to buy them

No drop pods - I know these would help against Nids but don't want to buy them

No Land speeders - I know these would help against Nids but don't want to buy them

Librarians of all kinds

Chaplains of all kinds

A Master of the Forge

A Jump Pack Captain with relic blade

Shrike

Tygerius

 

Questions:

What tyranids do I go for first.

What from the above unit are useful and how.

How to counter ymgarls and lictors

How to put wounds on monsterous creatures

How to manage trygons.

Can I make use of reserve.

How can I improve the chances of getting the assualt.

[Jackelope King]

Foot armies from Codex: Space Marines are at a severe handicap against Tyranids. Unless you're really devoted to a foot army, I can't recommend meching your army up enough. If you don't, you're already crippled in the fight against nids. Mech is King in 5th Edition (especially for Codex: Space Marines). If you want to go it on foot, use the Codex: Space Wolves or make a Jump Troops army with Codex: Blood Angels, but Marines in general need to mech up. You're finding out the hard way just how unforgiving 5th Edition can be to old-fashioned foot armies.

[Charliemachina]

Oh my god does it show.....I get wiped out by turn 5.

 

CCW Powerfist Scouts seem to do well against them.

 

I don't know how deep striking tac terminators would do.

 

Lots of scouts and shrike and flamer assualt squads could work but now against monsterous creatures.

[Xeonic]

I'll admit I haven't faced the new 'nids. That aside, it's easy to see what you need.

 

Bulk firepower/attacks/flamers - for dealing with hordes. Tactical marines are perfectly suited for this, though you can help them out with HS(dakka pred, whirlies, thunderfire), elites(tac termies and sternguard) and FA(land speeders, espescially typhoon w/HB) slots too if you want. This also includes units to charge and wipe out survivors from your shooting. Note that missile launchers are workable for any role and are thus a good choice overall.

 

Long range antitank - for dealing with MCs, this is missile launcher, lascannon, autocannon. There are a few choices in each slot. Tac termies with cyclones(also can work anti horde and as CC heavy hitters), land speeder typhoon(also anti horde), predator(combi works well this role), dread(can bring either las/ML or a great 4TLAC shots to the field).

 

Short range or CC heavy hitters - for dealing with things that DS in or close on you anyways, this could be an MC that you failed to kill and is charge it or be charged, or a group of warriors that DSed with a Tyranid prime next to your lines, but out of field of fire. This includes meltaguns(a bit sub optimal), powerfists, thunderhammers, and to a lesser extent, relic blades and power weapons/lightning claws. This group is a bit optional, but it can be useful to at least get powerfists in your tac squads.

 

~~

 

On to your list, you should prioritize based on the firer and what you see, genestealers should obviously be a prime target for any ranged anti horde fire as well as warriors and the like. Zoanthropes also fit in this category sinc they're murder to tanks, and if they deep strike in near your lines they're an immediate threat best brought down by Null Zone+massed attacks or bulk shooting.

Long range antitank should prioritize shooting MCs, winged tyrant first I'd imagine, and moving down the list based on threat level(not 100% familiar with all nid MCs :) ) It's worth noting that the mawlock should be killed asap if your opponent fields one, as it can swallow whole squads.

 

Ymgarls will die easy to shooting, if you encounter them and the squad isn't wiped out, use combat tactics(if applicable) to autofail and then regroup+rapid fire. They are a gimmick, albiet a powerful one. If I recall they don't have access to broodlord and have limited squad size as well as being vulnerable to regular shooting as much as a normal 'stealer. I honestly haven't seen too many lictors on the table, but I imagine they'd be mostly the same, an immediate threat that's weak to shooting.

 

Trygons can be brought down by pouring high strength shots into them, same as any other MC. This is one of the reasons it's essential to have a good source of long ranged high strength shots in your army. You can also shoot any MC with snipers and hope or pray for wounds, or more useful, sternguard. 2+ poisoned bolts can go a long way vs any list, espescially tyranids. Sternguard would also bring to the table cover ignoring bolts and AP4 long range bolts for a variety of targets. Throw in a few combi flamers(or even a heavy flamer or two!) and you have an efficient bug hunting unit.

 

You can get the assault for sure using jump troops or land raiders, but that's the same as any enemy. Otherwise it's careful eyeballing and guestimation as per the norm.

 

Those vindis are gold as point defence, and the raiders could do horde cleanup nicely(though there are better HS choices vs nids IMO). Dreads of all types are great and can be configured to be useful in a wide variety of situations, though dual TLAC and assault/plasma cannon w/heavy flamer would seem to me to be the most useful. I'd stay away from ironclads as they'll do nothing but bog down hordes and get killed in CC by MCs.

Lascannon in your tacticals don't mesh well with what they should be shooting, I suggest stealing the devestator missile launchers to make them all rounders.

I'd suggest using a libby as your HQ, the new nids have some very nasty psychic powers and a counter is always nice. Avenger is also a great horde toaster, and null zone could help out a lot vs zoanthropes(though I wouldn't go so far as to say you should take it just for that).

[Stikibandit]

I'm not a great lover of the Tac Termie route, but my experience with GKTs has been great against both Nidzilla and swarm lists. A lot hinges on when they can arrive via teleport, but my usual tactic is to have some forward positioned scouts (get them whatever works best for you, infiltrate/landspeeder/whatever) with a tele homer. The GKTs deep strike to within 6" so they dont scatter, and the volume of storm bolter shots they get off can cause serious damage to genestealers and gaunts.

 

They don't fare so well in combat against horde armies, but against high toughness low I opponents they can usually fell them before any blows are landed, especially if a GM is present.

 

I can imagine you would get pretty much the same result out of tac termies, with varying results against the bigger bugs.

[Justicar Valius]

I also second GKT, 4 of them with an incineerator with a Grand master (with psy hood of course) killed a max size hormogaunt brood, a hive tyrant (force weapons ftw) and 2 zoanthropes (incinerator and charge). Tac termies would do a lot worse of course due to Initiative 1 but oh well.

 

Blast trygons and malwocs to bits quickly, you don't see carnifex's like you used to so don't worry about them unless they have spores (kill em quickly). Tervigons, kill them, you don't want those things popping out objective holders.

 

Missile launchers. Almost everyone lost their 2+ (ok tyranofex and swarmlord) and almost all the big gribblies are T6. Also warriors are T4 with a 3+, no eternal warrior anymore... Thyphhon speeders with heavy bolters are a must. Nothing better these days in my opinion.

[Koremu]

Yor job against 'nids is to selectively crush sections of their army without getting mangled in return.

 

Pick a target. Focus your fire upon it to the exclusion of all else until it is destroyed. Then, pick another target.

[Ookami_81]

Ok with everyone: without vehicules, you'll suffer and die nearly all games against their new codex.

 

You need to have anti-horde and anti-MC in your army, and keep being on the move. The nasty bugs, Emperor's Wrath on them, are fast, numerous, and uber in CC. MC are less usefull for them in the new dex, expect to lose sight of Nidzilla lists, and, like some Ork players, just huge mobs of these ungodly creatures (much more fluff IMHO, after all they are social Hive insect-like monsters).

 

Anti-MCs' best of:

Static combi pred

Mobile rifleman dread (two TLautocanons), remember the most useful heavy 2 autoC.

 

Anti-mobs best of:

Static Dakka Pred

Whirlwind

Vindicator if you dare ;)

 

Anti-all and dolden plated against Nidz:

Tactical TDAs with their heavy 2 ML: good against both MC and mobs.

Above all (pun intended :D ), Land Speeder Typhoons !

I've seen what a crazy guy using 6 of them in a big army could do to nids ! The poor Nid guy haven't even had the time to understand what happened to him...

Best of all worlds: fast, good against nearly everything, you can take them with HB and keep your distances, or with HFlammers: kind of suicidal, but astounding when properly used.

 

Using these beasts make you understand why air forces rules ! :D

[Nehekhare]

When in doubt, throw Lysander at it. In a squad of 10 tactical TDA suits with 2 CMLs. And an all-Plasmagun command squad with a combi-plasma MotF in a stronos-pattern razorback.

[Mysticaria]

In general: Missile launcher is the king right now against Nids. I have been a nid player for far longer than I have been a space marine player, and I can tell you that the new book just really fears krak missiles. All the new 'upgrades' that the mid-sized nids got (3 wounds, 4+ save for warriors, cheaper raveners, etc..) are ignored by krak missiles which will instakill them. Also, nearly all of the MCs now max out at 3+ save. Krak missiles will wound on 2+ and will allow no save.

 

in detail: There are a number of different types of nid armies that you can face right now, and they can run the spectrum from horde to nidzilla to drop pod. I tend to think that the horde types are the best right now just because the upgrades to Hormogaunts and Gargoyles don't have the glaring weaknesses the mid-sized and big-sized nids have (i.e. bad saves, no EW). They are so cheap you can throw a ton of them out there, and they assault from outside rapid fire range. Hormogaunts in particular can be dirt cheap, deadly fast, and can wipe out tactical squads in one go (I5, re-roll some or all misses, 4+ to wound re-rollable). Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the same things that will be good against nidzilla will not always be the best against a horde. You need to try and figure out what type of army you will be going against and then tailor it to that force.

 

Note: I don't think rifle-dred would be very good against nids. It really has no good targets with S7 AP4. The big bugs all have 3+ save, the medium bugs all have 3W at T4 so no instakill, and the little bugs are coming in squads of 20-30 models. Typhoon speeders on the other hand seem really scary to me as a nid player. Enough movement to get around terrain and still krak off some warriors with instakill and enough shots to hurt the big ones.

 

Psychology counts! What nids really fear right now... instakill. They spent the last few years knowing that Synapse meant "immune to instant death". Now, seeing a 40-50 point 3-wound warrior get popped by a 10-point hunter/killer or by a tactical with a free missile launcher will make nid player sad. That's far more damage than bolters will do, even in rapd fire range (don't forget they can still play a little wound allocation on warriors). Also, seeing a landspeeder typhoon or any cyclone missile launcher is a big deal for nid players. Finally.... Don't even bring up force weapons when talking about MCs, that's a sore subject for them right now. ;)

 

-Myst

[Jackelope King]

Note: I don't think rifle-dred would be very good against nids. It really has no good targets with S7 AP4. The big bugs all have 3+ save, the medium bugs all have 3W at T4 so no instakill, and the little bugs are coming in squads of 20-30 models. Typhoon speeders on the other hand seem really scary to me as a nid player. Enough movement to get around terrain and still krak off some warriors with instakill and enough shots to hurt the big ones.

Not as optimal as it was, sure. But worth dropping from an all-comers list just out of fear of 'Nids? Heck no. 4 S7 shots that hit 90% of the time still fillet little bugs and make big bugs sweat. I'd still take them over shooty Terminators, even if tailoring my list. Mech'd up Sternguard with a pair of Heavy Flamers shooting out the roof of a Rhino, or a smaller squad in a TL-Heavy Flamer Razorback are worth consideration if you're tailoring, but I don't think they have the same oomf in an all-comers list as Rifleman Dreads.

[Charliemachina]

Wicked totally new insights:

 

The Ymgarls and Combat tactics is not a plan id thought of.

 

I plan to buy 4 Razor back to give me cheap extra fire power and mobility with my flamer tac combat squads. 2 with TLHF and 2 with TLAC. I think this will help. I might put power fists in these units just to give me hope of ganging up on trygons and the like.

 

Other than stealers i've never feared the horde, they die with great ease and arn't to difficult to avoid.

 

I like the idea of getting infantry up in the rapid fire face of Zoantropes bold pistolling and then assualting.

 

The idea of picking them appart has worked well but typically I louse the disiplined fire as my boys begin to feel like the Marines in Aliens just after the chest burster appears. I think a little more manuverability with Razorbacks and deepstriking terminators will give me alot more control of what fights I pick.

 

Librarians get nutered by the shadow of the warp but equally the WS 1 nid power is killer so I will debate this with myself.

 

Brilliant advice and food for thought.

 

Thank you

 

Charlie

[Mysticaria]

Note: I don't think rifle-dred would be very good against nids. It really has no good targets with S7 AP4. The big bugs all have 3+ save, the medium bugs all have 3W at T4 so no instakill, and the little bugs are coming in squads of 20-30 models. Typhoon speeders on the other hand seem really scary to me as a nid player. Enough movement to get around terrain and still krak off some warriors with instakill and enough shots to hurt the big ones.

Not as optimal as it was, sure. But worth dropping from an all-comers list just out of fear of 'Nids? Heck no. 4 S7 shots that hit 90% of the time still fillet little bugs and make big bugs sweat. I'd still take them over shooty Terminators, even if tailoring my list. Mech'd up Sternguard with a pair of Heavy Flamers shooting out the roof of a Rhino, or a smaller squad in a TL-Heavy Flamer Razorback are worth consideration if you're tailoring, but I don't think they have the same oomf in an all-comers list as Rifleman Dreads.

 

I wouldn't drop it from an all-comers list, but I also wouldn't pick it if I knew I was fighting nids. The kind of targets that a rifle-dred is looking to shoot at just don't exist in the current nid army. Shooting at things that bolters can kill seems like a lot of overkill, while forcing two to three 3+ saves on a 4-wound carnifex/tyrant just doesn't seem that exciting. If we are talking about tailoring a force with nids in mind, I think you should look for something that instakills warriors and allows no saves to carnifexes or tyrants.

 

On the flamer topic, I don't think most nids fear templates. I know I don't when I play nids, not even heavy flamers. The nids can and will assault from far outside the range of a flamer, even with the aid of transport. It's like a one shot weapon, that gets to fire and then the squad gets destroyed. The rhino/razorback is good in that it will make the enemy have to break you open first in order to assault so that is something I guess. I would be more worried about a krak missile, meltagun, and 8 bolters inside a rhino than I would be about a razorback with heavy flamer and sternguard. I just worry about the mindset that nids fear templates. I think that is incorrect line of thinking.

 

-Myst

[Schultzhoffen]

This may have been mentioned (not sure) but 'nids have very little in the way of frag. Stay in cover, shoot and assault firs

 

GKTerminators work wonders here (St6 PWs striking first kill everything, esp if you take a Holy Relic).

 

Pick a unit and shoot at it till its dead (usually I target the big guys first).

 

DO NOT go out of cover unless absolutely required and then only in transports.

 

I've played against the new 'nids 5 times and have won all 5 games. Some were tougher than others but basically I played a shooty/counterattack game anchored by GKTs, x2 predators (Auto Cannon/Las Cannon sponsons) and x2 Land Speeder Typhoons (x2 shot Str 8 Krak missiles hurt 'nids a lot).

 

My list is the same one I play against all oponents.

[McFisty]

Thanks for including a list of your models. I can only recommend Rhinos for the Tactical squads and maybe some Sternguard in a Rhino too. Every Tyranids list I have seen has had a fair mixture of big MC's and little swarmy units. Based on what I have seen, these are my observations.

 

Expect deep striking MC's to be in your face early. Nids usually have something to make reserves show up faster than normal. I think Thunder Hammer Terminators with a Chaplain in a Land Raider are the best answer for deep striking MC's. The hammers are necessary because many of these Mc's are T 6 and W 6. As important as that is, I believe that the 3+ invul. save is the real key here. Have the Land Raider stay near your deployment zone early in the game and react to to them as they arrive.

 

Nids are still Nids and there will be plenty of little varmints running around. I say, cleanse them with holy bolter fire and purge them with the redemption of The Emperor's flame. Every Nids list I have seen has at least one unit of flanking Genestealers. Deploy away from the table edges if you can and just wait for them to show up. Then roll a Tac. squad up in a rhino (you are getting some Rhinos, right?) pop out and hose them down.

 

Bring two or even all three of your Vindicators. Pie plates against swarms are always Emperor approved. Some long range shooty would be helpful too. I recommend a shooty Dreadnought or two. Nids have some psychic powers so a Librarian may be helpful. I hope my two cents worth helps.

 

For The Emperor,

 

McFisty

[Mysticaria]

Nids have some psychic powers so a Librarian may be helpful. I hope my two cents worth helps.

 

For The Emperor,

 

McFisty

Yeah, the main Tyranid anti-tank weapon (Zoanthropes) have a S10 AP1 Lance that happens to also be a psychic power. They can include three of these guys in one squad and put them in a drop pod. It is a pretty reliable way to stop a landraider. However, psychic hood gives a 50% chance to stop each shot so that could go a long way to keeping a land raider alive.

 

-Myst

[Charliemachina]

I'm getting some twin assualt cannon razorbacks!

 

Charlie

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

Are Nid MCs Eternal Warriors? If not then Libbys would do great as they have force weapons and could ID them

 

My 2 cents

[DemetriiTZ]

Yes, because rolling to hit on a 4, wound on a 6, and then passing a psychic test on 2d6 (sometimes 3d6, if the 'Nid is a psyker) is a great plan to stop an MC.

 

Excuse me, my sarcasm is dripping.

[Xeonic]

Well strictly speaking an Epistolary could use Might and be generally wounding on 4s, and you'd get 4 chances at it. Now this isn't obviously plan A, or even plan B, but if you're taking a libby anyways(and nids have too many nasty powers not to consider it), it's a reasonable last resort contingency plan.

[Meatman]

If I was taking a librarian I'd take avenger, AP3 heavy flamer? Yes please.

 

Meching up is a must against nids so it's a shame you don't have any rhinos. I'd recomend staying in cover when possible and cover them with as many whirlwind or vindicator templates. Something to try out would be a tunderfire cannon? Makes them move as if they are in difficult terrain, so bombard a unit with them if they are in charge range. It was brought up in the rules section that they then could as I1 due to moving through difficult terrain.

[Mysticaria]

If I was taking a librarian I'd take avenger, AP3 heavy flamer? Yes please.

What would you be targetting with this? I like avenger and all, but against Nids it doesn't really have a good target. MCs have T6 an W4 so not doing much there. Mid-sized nids are 40mm base (not hitting too many on a template) and W3 so if you are really lucky and they don't play wound allocation games (warriors) you might kill 1 model, and all the 1-wound stuff is 5+ or 6+ so having AP3 instead of AP5 is pointless. Avenger is essentially the same as a flame thrower against nids since what it can hurt has low armor and what it can AP has too many wounds and high toughness. Honestly I'd rather have smite, vortex, null zone, or might over avenger.

 

-Myst

[Marlow]

If I was taking a librarian I'd take avenger, AP3 heavy flamer? Yes please.

What would you be targetting with this? I like avenger and all

Hormagaunts, Stealers and everything else you would aim the actual flamer at!

Null Zone only helps against Zoanthropes so Vortex is probably the best option.