Tellion special rule VS complex units

[Fixer]

SM Codex: "Wounds caused by Tellion's shooting attacks are lockated by his controlling player, rather than the opposing player."

 

P. 25 RB: "Once the nuber of wounds caused by firing unit has been determinate, the player controlling the target unit must decide which models have been wounded, allocating the wounds to the warriors of the choice. Remember that model in the can be wounded, not just those in range or in view.

 

The player must allocate one wound to each model in the target unit before he can allocate a second wound on the same model."

 

Can I ignore this RB rule? Is the rule applying only to the player controlling the target or both players?

[jonjacob]

no and yes

 

if the unit is a multi wound unit like nobz or warriors then yes check page 26, however if a nob is in a boyz unit then its a no no. what you need to read up on is wound allocation, however not sure page exactly but all enemies must be wounded before you even think about placing the second wound on the same model, if you do not have enough wound to place one on each member of the unit you wound be able to place telions second shot on same person.

 

make sence?

 

EDIT: spelling

[Fixer]

I can allocate two wounds by Telion's successful shooting attacks both to enemy SM Captain and then opposing player have to allocating other succesful shooting attacks from my Telion's squad.

Is this correct?

[Rindaris]

As long as the rest of the squad was able to cause a wound on each of the remaining members of the Captains squad.

 

Example:

Telion causes 2 wounds.

All scouts cause 5 wounds.

 

Vs a captain and 5 Astartes

 

You can place both of Telions wounds on the captain because the 5 wounds from the scouts would be placed on the remaining marines. However if the rest of the scouts only dealt 4 wounds you wouldn't be able to, since Telion's 2nd shot would need to be placed against his guard due to wound allocation.

 

Clear as mud?

[jonjacob]

while this video is about close combat the premise for shooting and wound allocation is the one in the same

 

Wound allocation

 

Edit: because eye of vengence rule does not dictate who allocate wound first you may wish to disscuss this with your opponent, Rindaris makes a good example of why you'd want to go second in wound allocation, but it many not alway work out the way you need to.

[thade]

To put it plainly:

 

Telion's ability allows you to allocate the wounds that he delivers...per the normal wound allocation rules. It does not allow you to break those rules (ergo, you can't just dump both wounds he delivers to a unit on a single model and be done with it). Wounds must still be allocated evenly over the unit. The only way to do what you want is to have Telion's unit inflict enough wounds on a target as to cause overflow...then you do it like this: say we want to kill a Nob.

 

Allocate Telion's first wound at the start of wound allocation...on the target Nob. Your opponent allocates the remaining wounds (save Telion's last wound) across the unit, not putting any wounds on the Nob to save, but covering the rest of the unit with hits. You put Telion's last wound on the Nob.

 

I think the issue you're confronting involves an annoying unit of Nobs, each of which with a different load out, allowing your opponent to juggle wounds. Sadly you must allocate wounds over the unit evenly still..so you can't stack two on one model if you didn't score enough hits to cover the rest of that squad.

[bystrom]

To continue on what jonjacob said, in what order do you allocate wounds? I can see three different views:

 

1) The Telion wounds are placed first.

2) The Telion wounds are placed last.

3) The Telion wounds are placed anytime.

 

A couple of examples:

Telion gets a rending shot against a tactical squad with a pesky power fist sergeant, also the total number of wounds number less than the squad size.

If 1 or 3, then the rending wound is placed on the sergeant, putting him in risk of dying. If 2, then a normal wound is placed on the sergeant, allowing him to use his armour save, potentially increasing his survival rate.

 

Telion gets two wounds against an ork mob with a pesky nob with power claw, also the total number of wounds number more than the squad size.

If 1, then the nob only gets one wound, as the rest are placed on the ork mob. If 2 or 3, then the nob would get two wounds.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The easiest way I think would be to let the oponent alocate all non-telion wounds first, and then you place telions wounds with the option of displaceing any existing wound with one of telions, the oponent may then allocate any thusly displaced wounds.

[Grey Mage]

The easiest way I think would be to let the oponent alocate all non-telion wounds first, and then you place telions wounds with the option of displaceing any existing wound with one of telions, the oponent may then allocate any thusly displaced wounds.

I like that option, that works well.

[DuncanSpence]

The way I've played it is that Telion places a wound first, then my opponent places wounds until every model has received one, then I get to place his second wound, leaving my opponent to place any remaining wounds.

 

Works for us!

[Isiah]

"Wounds caused by Telion's Shooting attacks are located by his controlling player, rather than the opposing player."

 

Frankly I don't see why the rule isn't taken completely at face value and ignores the BRB in this instance. The firing player allocates wounds caused by Telion – even onto the same model – regardlesss of the number of other wounds/overflow etc caused by Telion's unit as he chooses. The Codex doesn't tell us we must follow 'normal' wound allocation after all, the rule is very clear, the complete firer control of wound placement. In fact normal wound allocation could mean I'm 'forced' to put Telion's wounds where I don't want to and to me that breaks the Eye of Vengeance rule. Incidentally neither does the rule give us the 'when' his wounds should be allocated.

 

Thus:

 

1) The unit and Telion shoots (make a separate note of successful Telion shots);

2) Follow Codex SM, (overriding the BRB) and allocate any wounds caused by Telion anywhere you choose in the target unit;

3) Allocate wounds from Telion's unit as per BRB standard procedure.

 

Alternatively:

 

1) The unit and Telion shoots (make a separate note of successful Telion shots);

2) Allocate wounds from Telion's unit as per BRB standard procedure;

2) Follow Codex SM, (overriding the BRB) and allocate any wounds caused by Telion anywhere you choose in the target unit.

 

 

Cheers

I

[Frosty the Pyro]

it doesnt say we can break alocation rules therefor you cant. Just like if we had something that let us move an enemy unit, we couldnt just pick up that unit and put it anywere, we would have to obey its normal movement rules

[bystrom]

Doesn't the rule rather say: The rules for wound allocation is followed, the only exception is that Telion's wounds are allocated by you, not your opponent.

 

EDIT: I was a bit unclear on what I meant... I was supposed to say that you follow the BBB for rules, and when using Telion, the only exception to those rules are that Telion's wounds are allocated by you, not your opponent. :D

[Grey Mage]

No, it just says "you may allocate wounds caused by telion" the exact method of that is left in the air.

[ArmouredWing]

"Wounds caused by Telion's Shooting attacks are located by his controlling player, rather than the opposing player."

 

Frankly I don't see why the rule isn't taken completely at face value and ignores the BRB in this instance. The firing player allocates wounds caused by Telion – even onto the same model – regardlesss of the number of other wounds/overflow etc caused by Telion's unit as he chooses. The Codex doesn't tell us we must follow 'normal' wound allocation after all, the rule is very clear, the complete firer control of wound placement. In fact normal wound allocation could mean I'm 'forced' to put Telion's wounds where I don't want to and to me that breaks the Eye of Vengeance rule. Incidentally neither does the rule give us the 'when' his wounds should be allocated.

Initially I was going to agree with this statement as my view of telion is that he's a vindicare 'lite' but reading the rules above have made me wonder whether I was right in the presumption that he operates in the same way.

 

The Vindicare ignores targetting restricitons but from what I can see above telion can just allocate his wounds accordingly? The simple answer would be that Telion nominates his shooting attacks against a specific model in the squad, therefore any wounds he does are allocated against that specifically targetted model and the rest of the wounds are evenly allocated amongst the rest. If that isn't the case then it does muddy the waters as to how the wound allocation is distributed.

 

If it were me playing against someone with Telion and he was firing on a unit with the rest of the squad I'd ask Telion's player to allocate the wounds first then spread the rest out accordingly. It's a simple fix but is it right?

[Isiah]

If it were me playing against someone with Telion and he was firing on a unit with the rest of the squad I'd ask Telion's player to allocate the wounds first then spread the rest out accordingly. It's a simple fix but is it right?

 

Seems right. But doesn't get around the issue of double-wounding a particular target which is the nub of the issue.

 

Vindicare 'lite' is a good expression. Telion seems better of course as wounds can be alocated to models in the target unit that are out of Telion's LOS and that's what makes it so interesting. The Vindicare must target a 'model' when shooting thus to do so it must be in LOS.

 

it doesnt say we can break alocation rules therefor you cant. Just like if we had something that let us move an enemy unit, we couldnt just pick up that unit and put it anywere, we would have to obey its normal movement rules

 

True, as in Lash say where a method/mechanic is specified. But here nothing is specified apart from allowing the firer to allocate wounds. All I'm pointing out is by the very nature of that, the allocation rule might be broken if the firer chooses to stack wounds on one model.

,

It's a grey area and I'm milking it :).

[Grey Mage]

it doesnt say we can break alocation rules therefor you cant. Just like if we had something that let us move an enemy unit, we couldnt just pick up that unit and put it anywere, we would have to obey its normal movement rules

Hrmm.... except were already breaking the normal rules by allocating them personally instead of the opponent doing so. Most effects that move enemy models do not care about their normal movement rules but instead use something specific to the power.

[greatcrusade08]

using RAW (although i hate those terms), the rule says you allocate wounds isntead of your opponent.. as it mentions nothing else about wound allocation we have to fill in the gaps using the rules in the BRB..

The EOV rule syas nothing about stacking wounds so we therefore have to use standard rules and dont get to stack.

 

Generally in wound allocation you place 'special' wounds first, i.e putting plasma wounds on the useless guys first.. as this is the case i usually place Telions wounds first..

[Grey Mage]

except thats just how some people do it, not a requirement... many people will stack special wounds on the same guy, taking 2, or even 3 plasma hits on a single marine.

[ArmouredWing]

except thats just how some people do it, not a requirement... many people will stack special wounds on the same guy, taking 2, or even 3 plasma hits on a single marine.

Yeah, true. Spreading the special wounds around evenly is something we don't do and it's a part of the wound allocation rules that can help you get around multiple low AP wounds by stacking those wounds onto 'already dead' individuals. There's nothing to stop you from doing it if you have more wounds than models in the squad.

 

As for Telion's wounds I wouldn't be that bothered either way it has to be said and if it did become a bone of contention I'd be happy to dice off for it.

[Ookami_81]

I always thought Telion as a Nob killer, and it seems to me his special rule is exactly tailored for that role. I don't see why an elder expert of the space marines experts in sniper shooting will waste a shot on a boy, if he knows your average Nob needs two bullets in his ugly green face to die. You can't afford to be fair and sporty with these Xenos when leading scouts ! :P