Telion

[ImperialReaper]

The first time I saw Talion in the codex I was impressed. BF 6 and a lot of nice abilitys like the eye of vengeance or the Voice of Experience seemed to make this one deadly HQ Choice. So I tried to build up an army list for up to 1000 pts including him.

 

But after investigating the options for scout squads I was a litle disappointed. Talion himself has this Stalker Bolter thing. It has some decent range, but only strength 4 and AP 5. Even if it has rending this means it is quite weak and unreliable. I thought I could use him to pick out specific models like the one guy with a melter or the one guy with an energy fist. But with this weapon - which also cannot be replaced the chances of this to work seem pretty low.

 

Also Scouts generally do not have options on like plasma weapons to make good use of his BFS which can be shifted to other squadmates.

 

Does anyone play Talion and can tell me in which cases he is of use?

 

Regards

Tony

[Danteus]

Telion as an upgrade with 4 other scouts will rock in at 125 points. To make use of his voice of experiance ability your best off taking a missile launcher.

 

Even thought his weapon is a rending bolter he is all but sure of 2 hits with an average of 1 wound (vs t4) and 1 in 3 of these will rend so the odds are not bad. When he does take out the opponents unit's trump card it can win you games.

[ShinyRhino]

The first time I saw Talion in the codex I was impressed. BF 6 and a lot of nice abilitys like the eye of vengeance or the Voice of Experience seemed to make this one deadly HQ Choice. So I tried to build up an army list for up to 1000 pts including him.

 

But after investigating the options for scout squads I was a litle disappointed. Talion himself has this Stalker Bolter thing. It has some decent range, but only strength 4 and AP 5. Even if it has rending this means it is quite weak and unreliable. I thought I could use him to pick out specific models like the one guy with a melter or the one guy with an energy fist. But with this weapon - which also cannot be replaced the chances of this to work seem pretty low.

 

Also Scouts generally do not have options on like plasma weapons to make good use of his BFS which can be shifted to other squadmates.

 

Does anyone play Talion and can tell me in which cases he is of use?

 

First off, he's not an HQ choice. He's an upgrade to a Scout squad.

Eye of Vengeance is of pretty good utility against non-Marine armies. He can shoot the special models out of a squad or unit quite well, especially those with a poor armor save. You can drop the special weapon troopers out of IG blob squads, take out Tau Shas'ui (removing bonding knives, and pretty much all of the squad's upgrades), or knock single wounds onto Ork Nobz. Any time you can force a special model to take a save, do so. Even if that Marine with a meltagun has a 3+ armor save, there's still a 33% chance he fails it. Whereas if you didn't snipe him, he'd never have to roll at all due to squad size and wound allocation.

Voice of Experience is also great. If you don't like Telion's chances of wounding a model with his S4 Stalker Boltgun, have him grant his BS6 to the heavy weapon in the squad. Three heavy bolter shots that hit on a 2, and a reroll of any misses (that only hit on 6s on the reroll) can be pretty handy, as can a single Krak missile fired at BS6. Its S8 can dent light armor, or cause Instant Death to anything T4 or lower.

[gettothegone]

3 Reasons why he's great.

 

BS 6 Missile Launcher

Wound allocation strategies

2+ in cover

 

BS6 Missile Launchers on side armor is an incredibly annoying feature <_<

 

3 Reasons why hes not great.

 

Expensive

1 Wound is dangerous

Flamer Templates = GG

[thade]

When I use Telion he's with three snipers and a ML scout and I put him in a ruin which - if I'm lucky enough to have brought a techmarine for the game - is bolstered. 2+ saves for the unit...that gives him 4 additional wounds...in the way of other scouts. Buried in the middle of my deployment zone is pretty good insurance against a flamer template, and that 2+ cover save goes a LONG way against ordinance.

 

EoV is awesome for picking off buried power fists.

 

VoE is awesome for just about everything else...either a BS6 ML shot at a transport, or a BS6 sniper shot at a high toughness target (tho that ML will go a long way there too).

[Jackelope King]

Telion suffers heavily from coming along with Scouts, and Marines pay way too much for them to be BS3. He also fits in best with the least effective unit of Scouts (wielding Sniper Rifles), since they can match him in both range and weapon type (Heavy). While not terrible himself, I usually feel like I can do with the points his unit would cost me.

 

Which stinks, because next to Assault Marines, Scouts are my favorite unit in the Codex.

[thade]

Don't forget that both Telion's weapon and the sniper rifles are Pinning! One wound = that unit might not move next turn. =D

[Xeonic]

Pinning is the best reason to take sniper scouts anyways. Having your troops get pinned really messes with things and it can win you games.

Sniper scouts IMO are best served with a heavy bolter, hellfire shells are not to be underestimated, espescially with a BS6 nearly autohit template.

Telion himself is one of the best upgrade characters in the game in my opinion, for his ability to pick off specialists and squad leaders. Yes, he has issues wounding T4+, but it's still a better chance of killing off that powerfist and/or melta in your opponents squad than you'd have had by just shooting blindly into the squad.

 

Telion and his scouts bring to the table:

Ability to force pinning tests.

Ability to wound under a blast template on a 2+.

Ability to pick off weapon specialists and leaders.

 

They aren't fire support in the way a tactical squad are, they will never cause tons of wounds, but there's nothing more irritating than having your guys pinned, forcing specialists to take saves, and having 2+ poisoned templates dropped on them, all at the same time.

Except maybe lash.

[BrotherAtrox]

He's also beastly in Kill Team games.

[cas]

leave him on the shelf. Grab a Power Fist and have some fun.

[ShinyRhino]

leave him on the shelf. Grab a Power Fist and have some fun.

 

Perhaps you'd like to frame this nearly useless addition? Are you adding a powerfist to the Scout Squad? If it's a unit of snipers, why would you do that?

[Grey Mage]

The first time I saw Talion in the codex I was impressed. BF 6 and a lot of nice abilitys like the eye of vengeance or the Voice of Experience seemed to make this one deadly HQ Choice. So I tried to build up an army list for up to 1000 pts including him.

 

But after investigating the options for scout squads I was a litle disappointed. Talion himself has this Stalker Bolter thing. It has some decent range, but only strength 4 and AP 5. Even if it has rending this means it is quite weak and unreliable. I thought I could use him to pick out specific models like the one guy with a melter or the one guy with an energy fist. But with this weapon - which also cannot be replaced the chances of this to work seem pretty low.

 

Also Scouts generally do not have options on like plasma weapons to make good use of his BFS which can be shifted to other squadmates.

 

Does anyone play Talion and can tell me in which cases he is of use?

 

Regards

Tony

1) Hes not an HQ choice.

2) S4 AP 5 is no worse than the basic gun of the entire army, and with rending has a good chance of being much more.

3) If you dont like Bolters then you should really, really play a different army.

 

If you want to use him, use him right and take a missle launcher in a squad of snipers, and use his experiance on them, or snipe people with his bolter. Need to take out a PW toting seargent? Got you covered. Want to take out that sanguinairy Priest thats holding the enemy line together? right there.

[cas]

leave him on the shelf. Grab a Power Fist and have some fun.

 

Perhaps you'd like to frame this nearly useless addition? Are you adding a powerfist to the Scout Squad? If it's a unit of snipers, why would you do that?

 

Do a little reading between the lines here mate. Telion is hardly worth taking. Just about anything in the codex is a better buy.

But I did meen a PF in a tac. Squad. apologies.

[Xeonic]

You can actually take two fists for the price of the Telion upgrade, however fists have nothing to do with telion. IMO he's well worth the cost and I shave points elsewhere when possible to jam fists into my tac squads.

If you don't like telion or scouts obviously don't use him or them. Perhaps you just haven't run into anyone who was able to use him effectively against you?

 

For me, it's easy, if I want to try for pinning tests to screw up my opponent, I take scout snipers, and if I take scouts snipers I take Telion. He makes the squad so much vastly more effective it's not even funny.

I also take a HB because the target profile I shoot at will be squishy vs it with the fantastic hellfire templates. If I'm shooting something I can pin, I let it be BS3 and use telion to give myself a greatly increased chance of forcing a test(and maybe picking off specialists or sergeants), and if I'm shooting at something he's going to be largely ineffective against(fearless assault troops with no specialsts say, or ork boys where I can't reliably pick off the nob anyways), I'll lend the HB BS6 and reduce the average scatter to nearly zero to insure I inflict some good wounds.

 

It works for me.

[ImperialReaper]

The first time I saw Talion in the codex I was impressed. BF 6 and a lot of nice abilitys like the eye of vengeance or the Voice of Experience seemed to make this one deadly HQ Choice. So I tried to build up an army list for up to 1000 pts including him.

 

But after investigating the options for scout squads I was a litle disappointed. Talion himself has this Stalker Bolter thing. It has some decent range, but only strength 4 and AP 5. Even if it has rending this means it is quite weak and unreliable. I thought I could use him to pick out specific models like the one guy with a melter or the one guy with an energy fist. But with this weapon - which also cannot be replaced the chances of this to work seem pretty low.

 

Also Scouts generally do not have options on like plasma weapons to make good use of his BFS which can be shifted to other squadmates.

 

Does anyone play Talion and can tell me in which cases he is of use?

 

Regards

Tony

1) Hes not an HQ choice.

2) S4 AP 5 is no worse than the basic gun of the entire army, and with rending has a good chance of being much more.

3) If you dont like Bolters then you should really, really play a different army.

 

If you want to use him, use him right and take a missle launcher in a squad of snipers, and use his experiance on them, or snipe people with his bolter. Need to take out a PW toting seargent? Got you covered. Want to take out that sanguinairy Priest thats holding the enemy line together? right there.

 

I do not evaluate bolters as weak. But regarding the special abilitys of Talion which could be really really evil with lets say a plasma rifle I found it a pitty that there were no weapon options for him and few options for scouts in general.

 

I think its pretty farfetched to suggest someone should not play space marine because he says that bolters are comparatively unreliable. Or are your lurking for cheap offers on Space Marine Armys on Ebay? :P

[ShinyRhino]

I do not evaluate bolters as weak. But regarding the special abilitys of Talion which could be really really evil with lets say a plasma rifle I found it a pitty that there were no weapon options for him and few options for scouts in general.

 

I think its pretty farfetched to suggest someone should not play space marine because he says that bolters are comparatively unreliable. Or are your lurking for cheap offers on Space Marine Armys on Ebay? :D

 

Telion with a plasmagun would be a little overpowered. He'd be on an Inquisitional Assassin points level at that point, and would have to be a one-man unit, like Assassins.

While it might be neat to have him able to swap out weapons for a close-combat version, giving him other weapons would just be too much for his role. He's an upgraded sergeant, not an HQ, which is where such options would place him in the FOC for balance reasons.

 

As for the dislike of bolters...honestly, they're your number one weapon in the force. If you don't like them, there is an argument for playing something else. The holy bolter IS half your Space Marine. The other half is your 3+ save. Saying "bolters stink and I don't like them" is akin to playing Necrons and saying you hate Gauss weapons and having to roll for We'll Be Back. :)

[Grey Mage]

I think rending is a fairly powerful addition to what he does. He is only 50pts after all.

[Xeonic]

Telion with a plasma gun would be a god. :P

 

There's no "a little overpowered" about a unit that hit on a 2+ and rerolls misses, then wounds on 2+ and ignores armor, while being able to pick who takes the wounds. He would be an auto include in every army dispite gets hot and a 4+ sv.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Telion gets better and better as army points go down. He kills heavy weapons and ignores the ablative wounds, the less of those the enemy brings the more important each one is for. He is essentialy a can of fist-B-gone. Also scouts with sniper rifles outperform rapidfire hellfire sternguard point for point vs 2+ saves, and essentialy tie vs 3+ IIRC.

[angry man]

Telion gets better and better as army points go down. He kills heavy weapons and ignores the ablative wounds, the less of those the enemy brings the more important each one is for. He is essentialy a can of fist-B-gone.

agree wholeheartedly with this

 

Also scouts with sniper rifles outperform rapidfire hellfire sternguard point for point vs 2+ saves, and essentialy tie vs 3+ IIRC.

a little mistified by this though - how does 4+ then 4+ outperform 2x 3+ then 2+?

 

AM

[Guardian of the Rage]

Also, while i'm not suggesting he is useless against certain armies (clearly he is not), he is of more use against armies which have units acting as delivery systems; by which i mean that 1 or maybe 2 models will actually do what the player intends, the others are just there to help this model get its chance. This also applies models which provide rules to attached units. Those models are particularly at risk if they have a single wound.

 

An example of a delivery system would be a standard marine tactical unit. Most people seem to take fists and meltaguns on almost all of them. The loss of either would significantly reduce the unit's combat potential.

 

An example of rules provider is best shown by the new BA sang priests. They have the power to make the BA units considerably more survivable and would rather not take a save (even with FNP) because they have a single wound. If a rend is rolled (as happened to me yesterday) then he will have made a significant contribution with one shot. It would apply equally to the Shadowseer (although you'll probably only get 1 shot at this because of the range requirements).

 

Kind regards,

GotR

[FlamingDeth]

Also scouts with sniper rifles outperform rapidfire hellfire sternguard point for point vs 2+ saves, and essentialy tie vs 3+ IIRC.

a little mistified by this though - how does 4+ then 4+ outperform 2x 3+ then 2+?

 

AM

Note that he said "point for point", not "model for model". Checking in at just over half the cost of a sternguard vet, I can see rending on the snipers performing better vs 2+ armor if you're spending the same amount on the units. Too lazy to work out the maths right now though.

[Marlow]

Also scouts with sniper rifles outperform rapidfire hellfire sternguard point for point vs 2+ saves, and essentialy tie vs 3+ IIRC.

a little mistified by this though - how does 4+ then 4+ outperform 2x 3+ then 2+?

My math does not support this.

 

200 points buys

A) Ten scouts. Telion, 8 Snipers, Hvy Bolter

B.) Eight Sternguard.

 

Rapid Fire Hellfire kills 2.96 MEQ Scouts kills 1.92 MEQ

Rapid Fire Hellfire kills 1.48 TEQ Scouts kills 1.44 TEQ

 

At 13-24" Scouts are better as Hellfire kills 1.48 MEQ or 0.74 TEQ. Tried replacing the Hvy Bolter with another Sniper and it just makes it worse.

Scouts score, reley on a cover save and longer range. Sternguard have better armour can move and shoot and are better in melee.

 

The problem I have with Telion is getting him to wound, I just can not roll 4+ when wounding! Usually I go for killing the PF but I have only managed it twice.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

Telion gets better and better as army points go down. He kills heavy weapons and ignores the ablative wounds, the less of those the enemy brings the more important each one is for. He is essentialy a can of fist-B-gone.

agree wholeheartedly with this

 

Also scouts with sniper rifles outperform rapidfire hellfire sternguard point for point vs 2+ saves, and essentialy tie vs 3+ IIRC.

a little mistified by this though - how does 4+ then 4+ outperform 2x 3+ then 2+?

 

AM

 

1. Well, I wouldn't rely on 2 shots to take out a fist, I mean if you can field Telions as a unit then that Sergant will probably get killed. And I hate relying on Rending to kill MEQs

 

2. Point for point means that since 17 Scouts with Snipers are at the same price as 10 Sternguard models, they outpreform veterans(?) I still disagree. Why Sternies are more effective than Sniper Scouts is because they have 2 attacks each, have Ld 9 each, can ignore cover, WS 4, cheap heavy weapons and the ability to take combi-weapons on each of them, and most of all.... they look COOLER!

[Frosty the Pyro]

9 scouts 1 scout serg is 140 pts. pure snipers gives 1.148 kills at 2+ sv targets or a .0082 kills per point, if you minimize the size (75 points serg+4 scouts the kills per point drops to .0079)

 

1 sternguard (number doesnt matter as its will be reduced to point for point) gets .185 kills at rapid fire and .0925 without rapid fire, or .0074 rapid fire per point and .0037 without rapid fire.

 

vs 3+ scouts get .01025 per point (.00988 if you use min sized squad) and sterngard get .0148 rapid fire and .0074 non rapid fire.

 

So sniper scouts do signifigatly outperform vs 2+ saves, but my memory was less than perfect vs 3+ (i recaled the values being much closer).

 

It should be noted said calculations were made with respect to monsterous creatures (back when carnifex were truely dangerous), nurgle bikers and other prodigously tough targets.