Telion

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

Sure, but then, Sternguard do better at close combat. What about 5+ saves then?....

 

I would use scouts for objective camping but even then I think it's a waste of points

[chapter master 454]

Scouts to me at ether slot fillers or comedy, NEVER expected to do anything right because they, well to be frank, suck. With sniper rifles they only have a 25% chance of wounding and thats without considering armour saves and FNP (unless you got a scout who figured out that most important dudes don't wear helmets!). You can try and get them to an objective but to be honest I will not even bother to expend my plasma cannon on them unless they are you last troops and your last visible target for the unit.

 

As for telion: useless. Wow he can choose who he kills, he hits with 2+/6+ and wounds normally on a 4+ against MEQ and if he rends, yes it might hurt me but to be honest if I was wanting my squad to survive I wouldn't even let telion see them or put them in range. I seen a telion against me once when I was playing with ym vanilla marines, my TFC 'morvern' saw him off without question in one salvo; points earned back right there plus I nailed one of your main ways of dealing with hidden stuff. He's a one trick pony who when you see him you know what the scout squad will have: Missle launcher and thats it with sniper rifles. Heck I rarely see him SHOOT his bolter, he's always telling the scout with the missle launcher he's a marine and not a guardsman.

[Xeonic]

Assault scouts are fairly respectable(espescially with fleet or furious charge), and sniper scouts aren't that bad, it's all about application. Sniper scouts will never cause loads of wounds. Period.

What they do is force pinning checks, and they're reasonably good for that. Throw in a heavy bolter that wounds with a blast template on a 2+, which all of a sudden means they can cause a few wounds. If I'm shooting at a squad with no specialists, I'll often use the voice of experience to reduce the average scatter to almost zero, and of course if I am, well then I have a good chance to remove one specialist or another.

The reason you'll most often see players using the missile launcher is because that's what's included in the scout snipers box.

 

Scouts are terrible objective campers, they are far too easy to roll over in CC, where they shine is light fire support duty, causing pinning checks and Telion is pretty reasonable at picking off specialists or squad leaders.

Scouts are one of those things that you either like or hate, use them if they work for you, and if not, well there's always tactical marines. Nothing wrong with tactical marines. :(

[greatcrusade08]

Scouts to me at ether slot fillers or comedy, NEVER expected to do anything right because they, well to be frank, suck.... [snip]

Sounds like a game against my noobs would give you a refreshing outlook.. its ok to have a negative opinon aslong as its well informed and sometimes guys just have bad experiences.

Scouts are just tools to help win games, some know how to use them others dont, Ultimately only a fool blames his tools!

 

Scouts arent space marines, and it seems most who fail with them dont make this discovery soon enough

 

Scouts are terrible objective campers, they are far too easy to roll over in CC, where they shine is light fire support duty, causing pinning checks and Telion is pretty reasonable at picking off specialists or squad leaders.

Scouts are one of those things that you either like or hate, use them if they work for you, and if not, well there's always tactical marines. Nothing wrong with tactical marines. :)

 

Snipers make terrible objective campers yes, but they come in a range of different uses/wargear options.

Scouts with ccw kick out as many attacks as an assault squad, bolters are bolters, and snipers have thier uses.

 

Telion himself is a god, your gauranteed (almost) to wound a T4 mini at least once, and if your lucky you may get a rend or two.. if you use him long enough youll find every now and then he manages two rends on a tasty unit.

[Meatman]

Telion himself is a god, your gauranteed (almost) to wound a T4 mini at least once, and if your lucky you may get a rend or two.. if you use him long enough youll find every now and then he manages two rends on a tasty unit.

 

Indeed. 2 Shots, wounded both my librarian and Shrike. But only after he picked off nearly every sergeant in my army :)

[Sir Blayse]

I've found Telion to be a huge asset for my scout snipers. The ability to pick off individual units in a mob is great, at long range you have more than one shot to do this. I run two 5 man sniper squads (not combat squads), using a heavy bolter in one and ML in the other. Usually Telion is with the ML team. I also camp the ML combat squads from the tac squads in front of them. This helps cut down on them getting assaulted too easy. Plus, they can help cut down the stragglers that get close to them. Using this tactic helps get rid of enemy power weapons/specials before my assault troops get into close combat. It's nice to be the one with the power weapons and not have to worry about not getting to make saves. Plus you might rout your enemy due to lower leaderships and better chance the jump guys can do some damage with pistols. I tried to drop Telion at times, but find he makes the scouts a lot better.

 

One question though. If you put Telion in the LSS, could he grant the BS 6 to the LSS crew, for a nice MM shot? I'm not sure if I would want to lose him for sniper duty, but I was just wondering if anyone thought about it.

[greatcrusade08]

One question though. If you put Telion in the LSS, could he grant the BS 6 to the LSS crew, for a nice MM shot? I'm not sure if I would want to lose him for sniper duty, but I was just wondering if anyone thought about it.

 

No they are not part of the same unit.. also note he has a heavy weapon so as soon as the storm moves he cant fire his stalker boltgun.

He can still use his EoV and VoE with pistols though

[Cameron Magnus]

I find Telion to be good as a support role in smaller games. I often play against Eldar where Warlocks grant the 5+ cover save to their guardians. Or the special weapon teams attached to those guardians. I tend to use him mostly for just those models but I have used him to wound a brood lord twice before my marines were assaulted.

 

In larger games when there is not as much room on the table and my opponent has more options Telion tends to get nailed early on by an outflanking or deepstriking unit. So under 1000 points I think he is a win.

 

Cam

[Pcm979]

Does that follow that he's a loss over 1000? If not, when do you think he stops making his points back?

[greatcrusade08]

Does that follow that he's a loss over 1000? If not, when do you think he stops making his points back?

 

Drop the whole principle of making points back, its all nonsense..

If telion kills a sergeant armed with power fist, he still hasnt quite paid for himself, however that enemy unit now becomes a whole lot easier to kill in close combat, they have one less leadership and are that little eaiser to pin.

Want to rid yourself of enemy meltaguns to ensure your land raider reaches the enemy lines, well its only an 20ish point model but if telion kills him youve saved your raider from being fragged

 

Make sense?

 

Telion (and snipers in general) work really well against more expensive armies like marines, when a single kill can make a big difference

[captain sox]

Think of Telion like this:

 

Paired with a ML Scout unit he is a loooong range Powerfist which hits on a 2+.

 

Blow up that transport, then use other squads heavy bolters to kill the contents of the transport (with 2+ templates)

 

He gets attention from opponents when you kill something important with him.

[Pcm979]

Okay, I'll rephrase my question. If Telion's effectiveness if maximised in games of 1000 points or under, at what points cost does he become not worth taking? On average, obviously.

[greatcrusade08]

Okay, I'll rephrase my question. If Telion's effectiveness if maximised in games of 1000 points or under, at what points cost does he become not worth taking? On average, obviously.

 

 

to be honest i never take a scout based list without him (from 750-2000points).. but that highlights the point/problem.

Not everyone wants to use scouts!

 

If you have snipers on the board then hes a worthwhile investment, if you take a unit of scouts just to get Telion then he becomes an expensive choice and often underperforms against expectations

[CaptinLoken]

I may shift the conversation here.... heads up...

 

I had a hard time removing Models from a unit with Telion mostly because I play tons of Marine armies. ( I Play a full scout army as well) I removed only two characters ever since I started using Telion. I think this is mostly because I used the Man as a VOE BS 6 ML or HB, I just feel the odds of taking down a model in the squad is much more harder then players think after reading the rules in the codex. The only time your certain of taking a model of worth in a squad is when you rend or fighting an army with 5+ saves. That being said it is all to tempting to drill Telion as a two man fire team in a scout squad, personally I would like to see his bolter replaced with an actual bolter that I can move with a unit or have a Sargent from THE DA codex back in 3rd and 4th. Namaan was a great example of other scout sargants as well... Telion is a great BS6 model but he morphs into a 2 sniper or a Assistant Heavy weapon unit my entire game I run him. This is great ... but the risk vs reward shifts depending on the moment.

[chapter master 454]

I will admit to telions annoyance factor, but at my level of play (1750) he's near useless against me. Oh wow you popped my plasma cannon marine, good thing I have a spare here huh? Sorry was what a 2+ cover you wanted but it seems my whirlwind/thunderfire cannon removed that. To me he's little more than a pest, it's even more fun though when I play necrons, it means I can give my necrons names so he can chose which one he wants to kill (however for some reason kenny is always picked on!). I call scouts useless, as for GC08: bring your little scouts on. I doubt anything will convince me scouts are worth it, give me a battle report with their success and I will believe you but as it stands: I mulch the little guys so quick it's not even funny.

[greatcrusade08]

I will admit to telions annoyance factor, but at my level of play (1750) he's near useless against me. Oh wow you popped my plasma cannon marine, good thing I have a spare here huh? Sorry was what a 2+ cover you wanted but it seems my whirlwind/thunderfire cannon removed that. To me he's little more than a pest, it's even more fun though when I play necrons, it means I can give my necrons names so he can chose which one he wants to kill (however for some reason kenny is always picked on!).

against marine armies is where he has always proven his worth with me, against orks he needs to get two wounds on a no so i generally use him with VoE or to take down burna boys from mobs.

With the plasma cannon example above, yes you have a spare, but now you dont.. thats the point, its one less plasma cannon firing at the rest of the army.

against necron armies i generally use snipers against T5 or better (there are plenty in there) so VoE is more commonly used with the ML.

 

I call scouts useless, as for GC08: bring your little scouts on. I doubt anything will convince me scouts are worth it, give me a battle report with their success and I will believe you but as it stands: I mulch the little guys so quick it's not even funny.

 

sounds like someones calling me out... it almost seems like you dont believe the success ive had with them?

I dont really feel the need to prove my armies worth, but im sure if this thread runs long enough one or two of my victims will post up. :P

 

Just to clarify though, killing a unit or two of scouts in a regular army is a far different prospect to facing a scout ARMY.. most marine players dont know how to use scouts properly.

[Meatman]

Well I mainly play smaller games in the area of 1000 to 1500 points, and at this level telion is an awesome choice. There is nothing worse then having your squad sergeant with fist sniped before being assaulted by a command squad or something.

That combat squad with sergeant and special weapon gets rended useless (see what I did there?) when the sergeant and special weapon guys get picked off, leaving 3 marines with just bolters.

 

I played 1750 points against GC08, turn one, my assault marine sergeant with fist got sniped. Telion then went on to take Shrike down to his last wound, along with my TDA and storm shield librarian on the same turn (I had so little left at this point I'd put them in the same unit of termies to help Shrike survive), causing me to be much more careful with them. Then I got in combat and Shrike got his revenge. Slashy slashy :P

 

I was getting my rear handed to me by the scouts, BEFORE an outflanking khan, chaplain and combat scout squad came on. (Luckily they came in on the wrong side so they took 3 turns to get to me, by which point my loss was assured).

 

 

The point is, I use scouts extensively, but even though I know how to use them, I still cannot beat an experienced and well thought out scout list. They perform a heck of a lot better then you expect and I compliment GC08 on his use of them. I hope to get my revenge saturday. *evil grin*

[greatcrusade08]

I hope to get my revenge saturday. *evil grin*

 

:P we shall see

[chapter master 454]

Khan not appearing for 3 turns? that sounds like a good thing: nothing like a late appearing uber unit to do an epic turnaround but ofcourse you have been kicked in my experience.

 

Now for your problem: I see that GC08 does make good on his '10th company' theme and I would be safe to say there is no MEQs kicking around. Right, lets get onto how I would show up scouts.

 

First off: This calls for sheer brute force, I can't out-deploy not out move so I will instead consetrate on over-powering and demolishing with un-matchable force. Land raiders will be needed with lysander laughing at telion (go ahead, ether way lysander wins. His terminators are meerly meat shields that hurt, and targetting a 4 wounds character with a 3++ and a 2+ save is not a sound tact). Ok now you may say: what about your troops, ok heres my two scout squads. Like I said, to heck with the game, I'll just kick your teeth back-to-front left-to-right and I'm sure with minimised troops I can. However if you want I'll bring my heavy mech list: three tacticals, three land raiders (and BA just makes it easier so which version do you want?). You first gonna crack my land raiders and as far as I am aware all you have is combi-melta with a pure scout army. May not outnumber but you can't do nothing about the fact I am chosing my fights without hinderance (oh and I WILL be moving 12" a turn so don't think you melta bombs will too effective...if you even charge!).

 

My land raiders have yet to be brought down entirely, so far th record is 2/3 and that was with a lucky melta shot. I'm afraid to me, scouts don't pack the punch needed to bring me down. we're talking about 1500-1750 if I remember correctly. I would admit though: it would make for a fun game, your scouts versus my armoured might. The hammer vs. the dagger. However if we're talking BA then I may just DS my land raiders just so I can...always wanted to do that :)

[ShinyRhino]

Now for your problem: I see that GC08 does make good on his '10th company' theme and I would be safe to say there is no MEQs kicking around. Right, lets get onto how I would show up scouts.

 

Let's not devolve into a "my dad can beat your dad" thread, eh? Talking about how you'd tailor a list to beat a scout force is hardly relevant to discussions of the merits of Telion. Any list can be tailored for, the real trick is building a list that can take on any opposing force, and have a reasonable chance of success. Theoretical stacking of the deck is 100% pointless in a tactica forum.

 

I find Telion's use to be in forcing saves on upgrade models. He's one of a few units in the whole game that can select where his wounds go, and force your opponent to pick up those dice and tempt fate. The sergeants and upgrade models in any force are its lifeblood. Most folks define Marine squads by their armament (powerfist/meltagun.multimelta squads are for tank hunting, etc). Tau Fire Warriors are boosted greatly by the Shas'O (or whatever they're called) with a drone controller and/or bonding knives. Guardsmen get rerolls to Morale from Commissars. The list goes on.

Telion allows you to pick those models out. If the opponent fails the save, you have just cut a crucial part of the target's battle effectiveness. Normally, you'd have to shoot down every member of an IG Blob before you get a chance to put wounds on the Commissar. Telion bypasses that.

However, don't fall into the trap of relying on the Rend to take out your target. Just the simple act of forcing an armor save is worth it. You want your opponent rolling more defensive dice, obviously!

His effectiveness drops off considerably when facing Orks and Tyranids, as their special models either have multiple wounds, high T, or simply don't exist. This is when you find more creativeuses for him, like guiding missiles on target to ork trukks, or accurate placement of Hellfire shell blasts into bugs.

[Fatuous]

I will admit to telions annoyance factor, but at my level of play (1750) he's near useless against me. Oh wow you popped my plasma cannon marine, good thing I have a spare here huh? Sorry was what a 2+ cover you wanted but it seems my whirlwind/thunderfire cannon removed that. To me he's little more than a pest, it's even more fun though when I play necrons, it means I can give my necrons names so he can chose which one he wants to kill (however for some reason kenny is always picked on!). I call scouts useless, as for GC08: bring your little scouts on. I doubt anything will convince me scouts are worth it, give me a battle report with their success and I will believe you but as it stands: I mulch the little guys so quick it's not even funny.

 

Lol, that's it, totally ignore the (and not to be too sicophantic) master of using scouts and roll out an, 'I'd counter it with a custom build of.......' reply.

 

GC08 is usually right in his assessment tbh. most players don't utilise scouts properly, seeing them as expensive guardsmen/poor marines, and ignore the actual uses and benfits of taking scouts in the first place. You pay a lot for them based on their stat line, but they are a steal when you consider the shear number of special rules you get. But I digress. Telion......

 

First up, not every one plays marines (altho he can really agaisnt marines too). And if you've been bogged down taking out every last guardsman in a blob squad u'd appreciate the effect of taking out a commissar early on, like before they assault and tar pit your dreadnaught or uber CC unit for example. medics, marine CC squads ones, or guard make that unit a lot less sturdy. Chaos champions (and this is prob one of their best uses) can be a real pain, and removing them removes all their benefits. Exarchs being another prime example. A dark reaper exarch with crack shot will be taking down large numbers of marines each and every turn, but not once telions popped his head off.

 

but it is not just these less common (perhaps) examples where he's useful, taking down any sargent is always worth it, loose the wargear and of course the Ld. Forcing armour saves on the models that matter is always a good idea, it's how you make people fail them (they wont fail them if they dont have to take them, that is the only sure fire thing you can count on in 40k).

 

Does it work every turn, every game? No of course not. Does he die to a heavy flamer? Oh yes he certainly does

 

the only realy question in my mind is......

 

Is telion worth the cost of a LSS for the same 5 man unit?

 

and the answer is probably, well you just take 2 scouts units :)