The very first version of the idea of an DIY chapter

[Milchmann]

Hey guys,

 

I am currently trying to write an Index Astartes for my own DIY-chapter and figured that I need your help. Sure, I have a lot of ideas and have read A LOT of other DIY-threads, including the mandatory ‘Guide to DIY-ing’, so I’m not completely helpless, but what I need is opinions. Opinions as to how my ideas are and how they can be improved. Moreover, I’m not that firm in 40k background and would appreciate every single advice and/or correction, if I should be too off.

 

So, what I’d like you guys to do is to assist me in producing a complete and coherent Index Astartes for the DIY-board here. What founding would be likely and what gene-seed? How do the chapter’s combat doctrine and home world correlate? How much background is needed at all and what details should I add/remove? In this first post I’m going to write a summary of my ideas for you to orientate in; in the following posts I’ll be answering any occurring questions regarding my vision of the chapter and reacting to your posts, of course.

Oh, and please excuse my English, as I’m German and might mix some things up. :D

 

 

The chapter in question is my own Phoenix Templars chapter, using the new Blood Angels Codex.

The Phoenix Templars are an old chapter, believed to carry the gene-seed of mighty Rogal Dorn and most loyal to the Emperor. In fact, they believe in the Emperors ascension to godhood after his death caused by the thrice-damned Horus – something other chapters think of as foolish. Nevertheless, the Phoenix Templars fight with a ferocity and fervor only religious wrath and righteousness makes possible, and as the end justifies the means, no one (of importance and authority) has ever complained or made a move against the chapter.

The Phoenix Templars have been created in the (whatever-th) founding, as a successor chapter of the Great Whatevers, in order to patrol the outer rims of the Eye of Terror. The gene-seed of Rogal Dorn had been specifically selected because of its tendency to create stubborn, relentless warriors – perfect criteria for the eternal fight against the forces of Chaos. They were given a home-world in the Calor-system, Whatever-sub-sector, north-western part of Segmentum Pacificus. This home-world, Iphrit, was the sixth planet of eleven, with… uh…

 

Gah, see? I have no idea of how to write such a thing. Basically what I want to use for my chapter is the following:

- They should hate Chaos above all other enemies of mankind and, as they were created for it, fight mostly against their corrupted brethren. I placed their home world in the northern part of Segmentum Pacificus, because it is relatively close to the Eye of Terror (so that battles against Chaos are likely) but also a relatively secure place for a home world to be (so their homeworld isn’t under constant attack). Is this okay? Are there better parts in the galaxy for them to have a home world? Also, is there a list of sub-sectors or can I come up with my own?

 

- They should regard the Emperor as a god. I know, not many chapters do this and get away with it (the Grey Knights do!) but this is one of the three major themes I want to include in my IA, so this should stay, if it isn’t TOO absurd. Therefore, I’m planning of using many Chaplains and Librarians. The Chaplains are obviously the spiritual leaders of any Space Marine chapter, so this one is quite clear. Librarians, on the other hand, are seen as holy for their connection to the realm, the Emperor has been reborn into. They are the ones able to read the omens and signs they believe the Emperor sends them. Their psychic powers are going to be explained with something fiery in my fluff (e.g. “Blood Lance” will not be a literal lance of blood shooting out of the casters hand, but a really strong beam of heat or something, “Shield of Sanguinius” would be heat-glimmering shrouding them and making them more difficult to target, etc…).

 

- The other major theme of the chapter is the phoenix. They regard this holy bird as personification of the Emperor, for they believe He has arisen out of the ashes of his defeat, born anew to be mankind’s new god, just like the Phoenix did in ancient terran mythology. They transfer this to their chapter organization by being really tough to bring down and always standing up again (Feel No Pain) and by using a lot of Dreadnoughts. They embrace death and see it as the possibility of being reborn anew. Therefore, they should be quite old a chapter, huh? The older the chapter, the more Dreadnoughts it usually has, right? But is the fourth founding too old? What chapter should they be successors of? I’m quite sure on them carrying the gene-seed of Rogal Dorn, but also (quite) open to any ideas of other Primarchs.

 

- The third and last major theme to my chapter is fire. I know, I know, a lot of people have done this already, but I am really fascinated by fire and love the idea of a chapter lighting up the battlefield with incendiary missiles before making planet fall, only to wade through the blazing fire storm and look totally bad-ass. I’d like the fire theme to somehow be included in the indoctrination of new recruits. I have no idea of how to do this, though. Another thing that’s fairly given is the ‘trial of fire and faith’ as I call it: fully-fledged members of the chapter – no matter their position or rank – may choose to test their fates in this trial. In the chapter monastery there is a giant rectangular hall, completely ablaze in a never ceasing, controlled and holy purple fire, with an immense gate on either short side of it. If a member chooses to do the trial, he is ceremonially prepared for it by the Chaplains and psychically shrouded by the Librarians. After one of the gates being opened, the tested one steps into the flame and is officially erased from chapter records. He counts as slain in honorable battle and is not expected to come back. There is, however, the possibility of the tested ones to survive and step through the second gate on the other side of the hall.

 

Okay, here my creativity stumbles again… somehow I’d like to incorporate this into my chapter’s tradition. There should be three outcomes for this trial: a dead Astartes, a scarred and traumatized Astartes (counts-as Death Company, called ‘The Faceless’ (haha, irony: “Faceless” <-> “Faithless”)), and an untouched Astartes (counts-as Sanguinary Priest, called ‘Phoenician Priest’).

 

 

Those are the things I’d really like to stay in. There are, however, some things I like the idea of, but would more likely change or remove them:

 

- Multi-culturality of the chapter. I’m planning on painting the skins of my models dark-skinned AND caucasian. Perhaps even skin tones in between. This is explained by there being at least two native cultures on their home world, both being recruited into the chapter. The intermediate skin tones are explained with varying effects of the (white) gene-seed reacting to the dark-skinned people of Iphrit. Multi-linguality is also desired. As I’m half German and half Brazilian, I’d like to use both of those languages, on top of the obligatory Low- (English) and High-Gothic (Latin). *sigh*… wishes, wishes and some more wishes, huh? Would this be okay? Too much? Boring? Cool?

 

- Do planets nowadays still have PDF? I’d like Iphrit to have a standing army of Imperial Guardsmen to defend it alongside the chapter, because the Phoenix Templars would be patrolling the Eye of Terror or engaged in campaigns a lot. Also, this way I could combine this DIY-chapter with my DIY-guard army (which I of course won’t present here, as this forum is power-armor-only). Like the White Consuls, the Templars would then choose an Astartes every so-and-so years to command the PDF and act as planetary governor (counts-as Straken. Yes, Straken has Marine-stats and Wargear and offers the guard army special rules akin to the ones the Blood Angels get. Win-win situation :confused:). Warriors too old or not fit enough to be recruited as Astartes are indoctrinated into the Guard contingent (name pending).

 

- What would the Inquisition think of a chapter doing such occult stuff and worshipping the Emperor as a god? Would they persecute them? Fight them? Aid them? Ignore them? What about the other chapters?

 

 

Well, that’s it for now, I guess. I’ll add my intended color scheme and chapter symbol soon, as well as some names for my heroes and maybe even a battle-cry.

 

I’ll check on this thread once or twice a day and would love to read any comment you guys make.

 

Thanks a lot in advance,

Milchmann

[Ace Debonair]

Your ideas seem pretty solid, all in all.

The thing I would try and avoid is using your story to explain units and rules that would appear in your actual games. Doing that and making it look good is never easy, and often comes off as tacky or silly.

 

Not sure if marine homeworlds have or need PDF. I suspect other readers may have the keys to enlightenment on that subject.

 

I look forward to seeing the first draft of this IA take shape!

[Milchmann]

[...]

The thing I would try and avoid is using your story to explain units and rules that would appear in your actual games. Doing that and making it look good is never easy, and often comes off as tacky or silly.

[...]

 

Hey Ace, thanks for your reply. The thing that bugs me, though, is why you think explaining rules with fluff. Isn't this something to strive for? I always thought IAs kind of unrealistic when they described a really cool chapter, with their own rituals, beliefs, with their own personality, really - and all of this wasn't represented one single bit in-game. A coherent bond of fluff and rules; if done well, what'd be wrong about it?

 

Oh, and by the way: I love your Red Lords Chapter. Really cool stuff going on there, dude. I'm going to follow that one. :devil:

 

 

Okay guys, no other opinions? I'm more than willing to improve my initial draft, but I won't be able to do it if no one's going to point out the bad stuff, huh? ;)

 

Thanks,

Milchmann

[Captain Nightengel]

They regard this holy bird as personification of the Emperor, for they believe He has arisen out of the ashes of his defeat

 

If your going to deify the Emperor then I would assume your chapter didnt see his mortal wounding as a defeat but thats just me. If my god got defeated Id start to question him....or this could be another place for expansion of beliefs.

 

So, what I

Edited April 16, 2010 by Captain Nightengel

[Apothete]

I dont see why a chapter wouldnt have a PDF in place. I mean if the chapter is constantly out fighting and only approximately 1000 persons strong, another military force would be needed to keep the population in check or just to have as a safeguard when the majority of the chapter is away. Think about it this way we have Marines and then we have the regular enlisted of the army. The marines are elite but there are not enough of them to take care of all the duties needed of the army.

 

That's a part of what Chapter Serfs are for, actually. There are going to be very, very few Astartes Chapters who can get away with maintaining a sizeable body of regular ground troops thanks to those pesky agreements that were made post-Heresy, where the promised not to amass the kind of power that would allow for a repeat offense. It's pretty well established that only certain of the First and perhaps Second Foundings are going to have anything resembling a PDF, and the most notable of those are the posterboys for getting away with things that shouldn't be allowed - the Ultramarines.

 

In their case, it's almost certainly because it would be difficult for them to defend all of the worlds in Ultramar while also contributing to the cause of the Imperium. Now, why that doesn't lead to the Adeptus Terra stepping in and ordering Guard regiments into place or founding PDF under proper Munitorum control... Well, that's another matter for another day.

[Captain Nightengel]

True, true thanks for clearing that up Apothete. I was merely implying that a some sort of guard force would be in place, although I failed to specify whos control it would be under.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

That's a part of what Chapter Serfs are for, actually. There are going to be very, very few Astartes Chapters who can get away with maintaining a sizeable body of regular ground troops thanks to those pesky agreements that were made post-Heresy, where the promised not to amass the kind of power that would allow for a repeat offense.

 

Armed natives? A fully-functional PDF is one thing, but what are effectively loyalist versions of Chaos Cultists? I don't think that would raise too many eyebrows. I would think that some degree of physical violence is expected on Astartes homeworlds - how else would the recruits be tough enough?

 

What would the Inquisition think of a chapter doing such occult stuff and worshipping the Emperor as a god? Would they persecute them? Fight them? Aid them? Ignore them? What about the other chapters?

 

Inquisition would step in if they saw anything that is particularly heinous and chaos deviating.

 

There is no Inquisition.

 

However, there are Inquisitors. Each of them will no doubt make his own mind up, just as they were intended to do.

[Codex Grey]

Hey, Milchmann!

 

I'll have a go and comment on your ideas, if you don't mind.

-

 

First of all I would just like to address what Ace have already mentioned about rules and fluff. As you've mentioned you're using the new Blood Angels Codex to represent this Chapter. That's fine, but it seems like you're letting the rules dictate the fluff.

For example, you have the BA Codex, and they have the Death Company. So in order to use the Codex fully, your Chapter must have something equivalent to Death Company Marines. But then you have to come up with things that might not fit with the rest of the fluff or something that doesn't make sense on its own, and often the reader can clearly see what the author is trying to do.

As another example, it reminds me of when the Chapter traits came out in the 4th edition. The Liber was flooded with people who created Chapters with traits, not because the traits worked perfectly the theme of their Chapters, but because they were looking to create a chapter as an 'excuse' to use... say, two special weapons in a tactical squad. While that way of crafting a Chapter might work, it often hurts the fluff.

In your case, I must say that currently it feels a bit tacked on. Let's take the 'Faceless'. First of all, how can full battle brothers become traumatized by a room full of flames? And even if they did become traumatized, how does this compare to marines who are temporarily gifted with a portion of a Primarch's power and his last memory(DeathCompany)?

-

 

Now for you're three main ideas. I know you want these to stay, but I would still like to offer my opinion if you don't mind.

You say want them to view the Emperor as a God. Marines are generally very stubborn in their beliefs. For a Chapter to break with this tradition, it would need a good reason. Why did this Chapter change their beliefs? I don't think anyone outside the Chapter (except for maybe a few other Chapters) would care about the Templars starting to view the Emperor as a God. My concern is if the change is believable or not.

I personally think that all this about rebirth and stuff can be pulled of without resorting to God worshiping, but instead as a philosophical variant of the common Astartes Beliefs.

 

The themes round the Pheonix are very interesting and has potential. I usually advice people to go with Ultra gene-seed, unless there is a certain aspect of a particular gene-seed you want to play with. In this case I think being successors of Dorn is very fitting, not only for the reasons you've listed, but also for the trial of faith an fire. The trial is very cool, IMO, and I really like Chapters with quirky rituals that serve to strengthen the themes of the Chapter. The Imperial Fists are known for the Pain Glove, as a means of meditation and self punishment. This trial could be an evolution of the Pain glove that is unique to your Chapter.

I would however limit the outcome to dead marine or surviving marine, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

-

 

Now for your questions.

 

Multi-cultural: One of the Space Marine organs controls the skin tone of a space marine to fit with the radiation of the current battlefield. So marines would be the same color if they are in the same place. But I'm unsure if you want this to be a mutation? If so, then I guess it could work.

As for several languages, I think the Marines would make it easier for themselves by limiting the number of languages, especially when it's two native languages. But if the marines retain their original names, than that would show the multi-cultural aspect of them by some having Brazilian sounding names while other have German names. That could be cool.

 

PDF: I think it depends on the type of homeworld and the type of Chapter. Is it a civilized world? Then it's possible for the population to support it's own PDF. Maybe the Chapter views the planet as nothing more than a source of recruits. Is it a feudal world? Then the population would be unable to fight against most invaders and the Chapter would have to provide the necessary security. But again, the Chapter might view the planet as nothing more than a source of recruits, and they might not even have a Monastery on it. Then again I think it's possible for a Chapter to both a heavy presence on the world in addition to the PDF.

 

Inq: As I said before, I don't think most Inquisitors would mind unless the beliefs deviated from both common Astartes beliefs and the Imperial Creed. Many, if not most Inquisitors, follow the Creed after all. There might be some Chapters who would dislike the change as a breach of tradition, though.

 

Hope you find my comments useful.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Codex Grey

[Ace Debonair]

[...]

The thing I would try and avoid is using your story to explain units and rules that would appear in your actual games. Doing that and making it look good is never easy, and often comes off as tacky or silly.

[...]

 

Hey Ace, thanks for your reply. The thing that bugs me, though, is why you think explaining rules with fluff. Isn't this something to strive for? I always thought IAs kind of unrealistic when they described a really cool chapter, with their own rituals, beliefs, with their own personality, really - and all of this wasn't represented one single bit in-game. A coherent bond of fluff and rules; if done well, what'd be wrong about it?

 

 

You said it yourself, it's got to be done well. I sometimes am very thankful that I don't know much about the board-game armies, because it makes it much easier to paint the picture I want of my chapter without wondering how to include certain types of unit.

 

For instance, you wanted Death Company equivalents in your army. The problem is, what you've got reads like a Death Company equivalent. It's too.. obvious, I think, is the best word to use.

 

What might be better, for example, is just talking about a group wthin the chapter who are wholly comitted to martial endeavor (beyond normal amounts, perhaps to the point where it's an obsession) and who want nothing more than a glorious death so they may ascend and join the Emperor or whatever. ;)

 

 

Oh, and by the way: I love your Red Lords Chapter. Really cool stuff going on there, dude. I'm going to follow that one. :)

Cheers! They took a lot of writing. I'll keep working on 'em once the Iron Gauntlet challenge is over.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

The point being: you should not make fluff to explain the rules you use; you should create your fluff, and then find rules that you can use to represent that.

 

The former reeks of the bandwagoning discussed in another thread, ie wanting to use the coolest/newest/hardest codex and finding an excuse to do so. I am not saying that is what you do, only that that is what it looks like when you make fluff to explain rules instead of the other way round.

 

The latter means you should consider using the normal C:SM. Maybe you could use Vanguard Veterans or Legion of the Damned to represent the warriors who have undergone the ritual. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that was the better way, only that you should take the time to consider it as an option. Make the fluff first; then take a look at what could represent it.

 

I do like you concepts a lot, though, and think you should definitely go on developing them.

[Milchmann]

(WARNING! Long post ahead!)

 

Ho-kay, guys, that's quite a lot to react to. Nice! :D

 

(Besides: can anybody tell me how to do multiple quoting? Now I'm going to copy each text 'by hand' and add the names myself, but there has to be a way to do this automatically, doesn't it? I thought those little 'add'-buttons would do the job, but it didn't work. What are they for, anyway?)

 

Captain Nightengel:

 

If your going to deify the Emperor then I would assume your chapter didnt see his mortal wounding as a defeat but thats just me. If my god got defeated Id start to question him....or this could be another place for expansion of beliefs.

 

Actually I'm going for the Templars believing in His ascension to godhood after His defeat. He was the greatest human ever to exist and after His mortal wounding He was set free of His mortal shell, and became god-like. It's not like their god was killed by Horus - Horus kind of made their god.

...wow, that sounds blasphemous. I hope you know what I mean. :P

 

Inquisition would step in if they saw anything that is particularly heinous and chaos deviating. Though with the belief in the god emperor they might get have some brownie points in the Ecclesiarchy. Remember the 40k universe is vast you could stir up trouble by saying how their beliefs conflicted with another chapter but generally in this universe its if your doing things relatively by the book you should be safe.

 

Huh? But ins't it one of the main imperial beliefs that the Emperor is no god? I thought the Inquisition (or a couple of Inquisitors) would think the Templars' worship to be heretical or something. So instead the Phoenix Templars would get support from the Ecclesiarchy? Cool. And ya, I'm already planning a major conflict with another chapter because of this very fact.

 

I dont see why a chapter wouldnt have a PDF in place. I mean if the chapter is constantly out fighting and only approximately 1000 persons strong, another military force would be needed to keep the population in check or just to have as a safeguard when the majority of the chapter is away. Think about it this way we have Marines and then we have the regular enlisted of the army. The marines are elite but there are not enough of them to take care of all the duties needed of the army.

 

That's exactly my thinking. I must admit, I don't really know how the politics and planetary relationships in solar systems work, but I imagine one planet (the Home World) to be the capital planet which somehow rules over the other inhabited planets of the system. Thus, the Phoenix Templars would have the responsibility to care for the entire system, wouldn't they? This is an impossible task for 1000 Astartes to do, especially when concidering that at all times more than half of it is campaigning. Therefore I thought it logical to have a standing force of armed men and women to defend the system (at least the Home World) at any time. I called it 'PDF' in the absence of a better alternative.

 

Maybe let all those people, who prove themselves worthy of holy war, but are either too old or weak to join the ranks of Astartes, join the planetary guard regiment?

 

Overall a very interesting idea but flesh it out a bit give it some character so we can see where its going and you might get more comments.

 

Thank you! And yes, you guys are indeed helping me a lot, so expect more to come soon!

 

 

Apothete:

 

That's a part of what Chapter Serfs are for, actually. There are going to be very, very few Astartes Chapters who can get away with maintaining a sizeable body of regular ground troops thanks to those pesky agreements that were made post-Heresy, where the promised not to amass the kind of power that would allow for a repeat offense. It's pretty well established that only certain of the First and perhaps Second Foundings are going to have anything resembling a PDF, and the most notable of those are the posterboys for getting away with things that shouldn't be allowed - the Ultramarines.

 

But you can't tell me, that planets are left on their own? Against all of that evil form outside? Every planet should have some kind of an armed force defending it in dire times, don't you think? I'm not talking about an army large enough to overturn other systems, but a contingent strong enough to effectively hold planetary attackers at bay and maybe launch small attacks supporting their Astartes chapter. You think the bureaucrats of Terra would have a problem with that? How is a planet that close to the Eye of Terror supposed to survive without a proper defence?

 

 

Grand Master Tyrak:

 

Armed natives? A fully-functional PDF is one thing, but what are effectively loyalist versions of Chaos Cultists? I don't think that would raise too many eyebrows. I would think that some degree of physical violence is expected on Astartes homeworlds - how else would the recruits be tough enough?

 

Yes, that's what I think, too. More or less. :)

 

There is no Inquisition.

However, there are Inquisitors. Each of them will no doubt make his own mind up, just as they were intended to do.

 

So, I could come up with an Inquisitor making moves against my chapter, as well as an Inquisitor who thinks they're totally awesome and wants to help them?

 

 

Codex Grey:

(whoohoo, a relly nice post, dude! Cheers!)

 

First of all I would just like to address what Ace have already mentioned about rules and fluff. As you've mentioned you're using the new Blood Angels Codex to represent this Chapter. That's fine, but it seems like you're letting the rules dictate the fluff.

For example, you have the BA Codex, and they have the Death Company. So in order to use the Codex fully, your Chapter must have something equivalent to Death Company Marines. But then you have to come up with things that might not fit with the rest of the fluff or something that doesn't make sense on its own, and often the reader can clearly see what the author is trying to do.

 

Okay, this seems to be misunderstood by some of you. The truth is, I had the original idea for the Phoenix Templars some two years ago, when I wanted to justify that I intended to use Sisters of Battle rules for Space Marine miniatures. I never liked the looks of those old metal models so went for the plastic marines instead. The Trial of Fire and Faith was my explanation for the Astartes being physically weakened (WS, S and T is 3 instead of 4), but still using Astartes wargear and so on. The idea to use SoB quickly died, but the Phoenix Templars remained. I fell in love with the basic idea of the chapter, without ever having the chance to flesh them out.

 

With the publishing of the latest C:SM I decided to give them a go and use that codex to actually be able to play my idea. The Trial of Fire and Faith, their longevity and religious fervour remained hidden in the fluff, since no rules could actually represent them. But that was fine to me. Then, as the Space Wolves came out, I looked at the rules and decided that they would'nt add to the character of my chapter, so had to pass. The only interesting choices were Björn the Fellhanded (Dreadnoughts are cool. Now an über-Dreadnought as HQ? That's frickin' awesome!), but just him could'nt justify me changing codices. The Blood Angels, however, offered me the stuff I was wanting all along: the possibility to play an entire army of Dreadnoughts, Hand Flamers, Infernus Pistols, (religiously) insane warriors of doom, up to twelve chaplains in the army and more. The jump from C:SM to C:BA was pure logic to me.

 

The Trial of Fire and Flame as explanation for the Death Company and Sanguinius Priests was pretty convenient, all told. I had the idea and now even some special, non-standard troops to represent it on the battlefield! So while you're right about me at first tailoring my fluff in order to represent rules, this isn't correct anymore, as the fluff has developed and become independent from the rules. Thier joining now is justified the other way around. :)

 

Let's take the 'Faceless'. First of all, how can full battle brothers become traumatized by a room full of flames? And even if they did become traumatized, how does this compare to marines who are temporarily gifted with a portion of a Primarch's power and his last memory(DeathCompany)?

 

Well, maybe I used the wrong word, then, excuse me. I didn't mean 'traumatized' as in "Aaargh! Oh my god, this is so hot! And bright! I can't deal with this! Where's my scotch whiskey?", but as in "I am in a god-forsaken place that is completely and utterly ablaze in like the hottest fire I can imagine. There is no obvious way out. I am going to die and there is nothing I can do about it. Oh and by the way, my entire body and soul are burning. I think I am in trouble". I meant a trauma of agony, desorientation, hopelessness and fear discomfort. Those warriors who prove to have sufficient strength, endurance and most of all faith, survive. They are burned beyond recognition (thus the 'Faceless') but they live and are full of renewed faith in being chosen to survive, in having proven worthy to fight on, in being granted the honour of being reborn anew, like their Emperor, their Phoenix once did. To me that's a cool 'Death Company'.

 

You say want them to view the Emperor as a God. Marines are generally very stubborn in their beliefs. For a Chapter to break with this tradition, it would need a good reason. Why did this Chapter change their beliefs? I don't think anyone outside the Chapter (except for maybe a few other Chapters) would care about the Templars starting to view the Emperor as a God. My concern is if the change is believable or not.

I personally think that all this about rebirth and stuff can be pulled of without resorting to God worshiping, but instead as a philosophical variant of the common Astartes Beliefs.

 

That is a good point you have there. I don't know yet why they believe in what they do. I'll have to think that over again. I'd be grateful for any suggestions concering this!

 

If they stopped worshipping the Emperor as their god, wouldn't they also lose the currently single reason for their Phoenix-symbology? And therefore their identity? Their chapter name, their chapter symbol, their philosophy? I personally think that the whole religious thing is really important, as it's something the chapter, and I, strongly identify with. What is your take on this? Tell me and I will listen.

 

The themes round the Pheonix are very interesting and has potential. [...] I would however limit the outcome to dead marine or surviving marine, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

 

Glad that idea is liked. As I wrote before in this post, I'm tending to do as you suggest, however (I love that word) with the surviving Astartes being 'count-as Death Company'. Would that be okay?

 

Multi-cultural: One of the Space Marine organs controls the skin tone of a space marine to fit with the radiation of the current battlefield. So marines would be the same color if they are in the same place. But I'm unsure if you want this to be a mutation? If so, then I guess it could work.

 

Yes, if that organ-thing is the case I want it to be a mutation. Actually, they'll now have quite some mutations: no acid-spitting (ridiculous...), no "I eat you and remember your memories" (wth?!), no adjusment of pigmentation. Is this too much?

 

As for several languages, [...] if the marines retain their original names, than that would show the multi-cultural aspect of them by some having Brazilian sounding names while other have German names. That could be cool.

 

Very cool idea! I am so going to do this. :)

 

PDF: I think it depends on the type of homeworld and the type of Chapter. [...]

 

Their homeworld should be (or at least have a large portion of it being) civilized. The Phoenix Templars care for their homeworld and its people. In fact, they send an honoured marine to be planetary gouvernor every so and so years, like mentioned in the OP. Think of it like the White Consuls do/did. Hence a standing army would be very likely in my book.

 

Hope you find my comments useful.

 

Oh yes, really useful. It's people like you and posts like yours that help me the most. Thank you very much and keep it up! :D

 

 

Ace Debonair:

 

First, please read my first response to Codex Grey, this will explain my thinking about the Trial of Fire and Faith.

 

What might be better, for example, is just talking about a group wthin the chapter who are wholly comitted to martial endeavor (beyond normal amounts, perhaps to the point where it's an obsession) and who want nothing more than a glorious death so they may ascend and join the Emperor or whatever.

 

You know what, this actually is a great idea! If, for some reason you guys won't like my interpretation of the Death Company, then this idea of yours will be applied.

 

 

Wolf Priest Haelaeif:

 

You too, please read my response regarding the Trial and the Death Company. :)

 

I do like you concepts a lot, though, and think you should definitely go on developing them.

 

Thank you very much. I will!

 

EDIT: Wha...?! You're from Hamburg-Altona? Me too! We're neighbours! :D

 

 

 

Thanks to all of you guys who have responded so far! This keeps me going. You can expect a little text on the chapter beliefs to be presented here next, maybe even along with the combat-doctrines.

I still need help on the founding-bit, though. What founding would be most reasonable to create my chapter and why? Which year? What have they been created for and where should their homeworld be located?

 

Thank you so much,

Milchmann

Edited April 17, 2010 by Milchmann

[Codex Grey]

Well, maybe I used the wrong word, then, excuse me. I didn't mean 'traumatized' as in "Aaargh! Oh my god, this is so hot! And bright! I can't deal with this! Where's my scotch whiskey?", but as in "I am in a god-forsaken place that is completely and utterly ablaze in like the hottest fire I can imagine. There is no obvious way out. I am going to die and there is nothing I can do about it. Oh and by the way, my entire body and soul are burning. I think I am in trouble". I meant a trauma of agony, desorientation, hopelessness and fear discomfort. Those warriors who prove to have sufficient strength, endurance and most of all faith, survive. They are burned beyond recognition (thus the 'Faceless') but they live and are full of renewed faith in being chosen to survive, in having proven worthy to fight on, in being granted the honour of being reborn anew, like their Emperor, their Phoenix once did. To me that's a cool 'Death Company'.

I get it and I think the idea is great (although hopelessness is something I don't see them feeling. They know why they are there and they know they will either survive or not. All they can do is endure the agony, the disorientation, the discomfort, but they won't be hopeless, will they? They're marines! Argh!)

However (I know you like it :D ) the only thing the ritual proves is their stubbornness and toughness, which they had before they entered the ritual. But they don't gain anything. They don't receive Primarch-like strength. The only thing they get is cool looking scars and streetcred :D

Just to be clear I don't mind at all that you're using the Death Company to represent these guys (although IMO, it's not a very accurate representation). All I want to advice against is that fluffwise, the IA won't state that these the reborn are somehow made better than other marines.

 

That being said, if you want a more accurate representation for the Death Company like marines in your Chapter, then Ace's idea could work, and it fits nicely with the themes you have going.

 

Yes, if that organ-thing is the case I want it to be a mutation. Actually, they'll now have quite some mutations: no acid-spitting (ridiculous...), no "I eat you and remember your memories" (wth?!), no adjusment of pigmentation. Is this too much?

Not necessarily too much, but you have to ask yourself if it's necessary. Things like this can add to your Chapter or they don't add anything at all, and then it just clutters the IA.

In this case you wanted the Pigment-organ-thingy to mutate, so you could represent the multicultural aspect. And if you're still going for being successor of Dorn, then the Chapter will be missing the acid spitting organ and another one which I fail to remember at this point. That's three missing/nonfunctional organs. You could run with this and have their Gene-seed become more unstable over time, explaining the loss of another organ (memory eating). But you have decide if you really need this extra stuff, or if it will end up distorting the focus of the article and the Chapter.

 

If they stopped worshipping the Emperor as their god, wouldn't they also lose the currently single reason for their Phoenix-symbology? And therefore their identity? Their chapter name, their chapter symbol, their philosophy? I personally think that the whole religious thing is really important, as it's something the chapter, and I, strongly identify with. What is your take on this? Tell me and I will listen.

Maybe they believe that the Emperor is the only human who has fulfilled the greatest potential of humanity, being reborn in the warp. And by dieing, they will join the father in the warp until one day they will all return to lead humanity to victory.

 

 

As for when they were founded, that's really up to you. Do you want them to have a long and glorious history. Or are they newly created, eager to prove their worthiness. If your still planning on keeping the God views, then a later founding would make more sense to me.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Codex Grey

[Ace Debonair]

Ace Debonair:

 

First, please read my first response to Codex Grey, this will explain my thinking about the Trial of Fire and Faith.

 

What might be better, for example, is just talking about a group wthin the chapter who are wholly comitted to martial endeavor (beyond normal amounts, perhaps to the point where it's an obsession) and who want nothing more than a glorious death so they may ascend and join the Emperor or whatever.

 

You know what, this actually is a great idea! If, for some reason you guys won't like my interpretation of the Death Company, then this idea of yours will be applied.

 

I read your other points, and I definitely see where you're coming from. A lot will depend on how the idea comes across within the IA itself - in other words, I agree that you should stick to your original idea at least until the first draft. My alternative can be used as a last resort. :)

 

Oh, and sorry, but I don't know how to do multiple quotes either. :)

[Shotbreak]

I actually thought of using Phoenix Templars as my DIY chapter before reading this (wanted to see how many phoenix style chapters there are) but i had chosen not to and went for "Phoenix Crusaders" instead. sad thing is my fluff almost runs exactly parallel to yours, except they're in the Segmentum Obscuris ,so they're a lot closer to the eye of terror and they have an entire Battle Company that has bionics ala Iron Hands with the commander a Venerable and a Emissary to take the Commanders role instead of a high dread count, even planned on having some counts as Legion of the Damned to explain my rebirth idea, since it actually will happen in my fluff . They are mostly at odds with the Thousand Sons :P

 

I didn't think i would find a DIY that would be soooo close to mine, it's that brilliant of an idea B)

 

I have a notepad file on my comp that has everything from campaign names and explanations to naming every captain, librarian, chaplain, and every other special character i could think of to even having the planet and history rolled out before i even looked for another phoenix chapter.

 

if you wanna check it out and grab any ideas i'd be happy to send a copy

 

yet another edit, i read through more of the posts and I found out I was the one that was soooo close to your DIY lol

Edited June 26, 2010 by Shotbreak