Raider Rush army builds

[minigun762]

I used to play with Land Raiders way back in 4th but I haven't yet in 5th.

 

With the knowledge that our Raiders are inferior to those Loyalists, how effective is a Raider Rush build army and is there an upper limit on the number of Raiders you should include?

 

I'm feeling that gnawing feeling to redo my army list into something less cookie-cutter.

[the jeske]

well you either play a 2 zerker LR + 5 man plasm pms in rhinos or play 2 zerker LR+ zerker in rhino.

as playabilty goes. dead against IG , tough time against eldar and vulkan builds , because both can pop the LR real fast and are rather fast . the problem also is that our LR are both smaller [only 5 guys] and we lack a unit like TH/SS termis that can more less kill or tarpit anything [specialy with an HQ attached].

 

If I were to make a LR rush army I would either use BAs[cheaper rhinos , priests etc] or vulkan builds[mastercrafted TH+still cheap support that doesnt take up hvy slots in form of MM attack bikes. I would run them with a 1 tac 1 scout unit set up to save points and play it like all alfa strike lists].

[minigun762]

well you either play a 2 zerker LR + 5 man plasm pms in rhinos or play 2 zerker LR+ zerker in rhino.

 

Why wouldn't you go with 3x Raiders at 1500? You can fit in 3 Raiders, 3 Troops and 1 DP at that point limit. At higher limits, you could get extra Raiders by including them with your Terminators and dumping more troops into them.

[the jeske]

because our LR do nothing else but transport[no machine spirits] and runign with 2 DP is more effective . LR are av14 but it doesnt mean they cant be destroyed and when those troops start slogging its better to have 2 units going 12" per turn then have one .

[Corpse.]

I use a 3 raider, khorne claw lord and 28 zerker force at 1498 points. Works pretty well. Zerkers can follow in any raider that survives long range if facing a ranged force. Otherwise pound their vitals with the three raiders in the first turn and try for a third turn assault. Often people don't expect three raiders in 1500, and some armies have no way of dealing with them after removing certain things in their army.

 

Three raiders are scoring even if you never exit them. I push against the enemy, assaulting the melta-ish stuff where possible and using the raider to block stuff after moving above 6" like if any TH/SS terminators are around, I keep them out of it until I've wiped out whatever unit I focused on earlier. Raiders are big blocks of boulders, make them your cover and walls through the game and be careful to abuse the assault ramp rules against melta-style things. Fire at range to kill off a devastator squad full of lascannons if there is any such unit(s) worthy of dying within a turn or maybe two of firepower.

 

Zerkers lose steam fast if they fight a whole army without it being pummled a bit first. So the blocking and early potential near-nil anti tank (or worse, they have a few grey knights/otherwise melee for their anti melee attempts and they are weak to berzerkers entirely).

 

It's a fun list. Some things beat it up. Try to bash eldar at range if you happen to get first turn, hope to stun/immobilize things beyond their 36" range of their lance weapons. Works half the time for me against stuff I face with eldar.

[the jeske]

. Fire at range to kill off a devastator squad full of lascannons if there is any such unit(s) worthy of dying within a turn or maybe two of firepower.

the what :yes: ? since when are devs used in other lists then sw [and event there they use either 5 RL or 3RL 2 Las set up] ?

 

there problem is fast moving meltas on attack bikes or drop dreads or [with BA now] close range melta guns from squads like RAS/GH/IG vets or even other chaos units in mirrors . Yeah if someone wants to pop land raiders with lascanons then he needs what 8 per LR , so that would be 24 lascanons . aside for tailored for that IG no army can do that . thats why we have a melta edition.

[minigun762]

Is there any chance that the firepower on 3x Land Raiders is enough to knock out fast moving Melta units before they can hit home?

[Justicar Valius]

Not if you have enough cover on the table and they have enough melta.

[Moress]

I have never run a Land Raider rush build, but it seems like your putting all our eggs in one basket. Like Jeske said, fast moving melta units will ruin your life, and almost every army has access to it. This list seems really hit or miss.

[Dan The Deamon]

I think you guys are taking what-if-hammer to an all time high. If you like a specific units fluff or looks then stick it in your list and learn how to use it. There's plenty of ways to be competitive with 'sub par' lists. Try reserves, try different tactics instead of discounting units before they even hit the table.

 

Land raider rush may get ruined by some units, but with that logic you might as well not even play chaos. GW should just release a battle force with two daemon princes, oblits, and plague/zerk upgrades for that matter.

 

I made a creative, fluffy, non optimized list and I do very well with it. You'd be surprised how solid a fun list can be.

[Brother Evar]

Is there any chance that the firepower on 3x Land Raiders is enough to knock out fast moving Melta units before they can hit home?

 

I use x4 MM AB's in my list, not to mention all the combi's, MG and MM on my DP tac squads, DP Ironclad, chain fist termi's- so I think you would be walking very soon if you faced me with a x3 LR list. My list is one I don't even consider competitive. :)

[Chimerical]

If by LR rush you mean 'as many land raiders as will fit', then yes, it can be effective, devastatingly so. Armies that aren't absolutely loaded with melta will get rolled by it.

 

List like this:

 

Lord (90)

 

3 Terminators (90)

 

LR (220)

 

3 Terminators (90)

 

LR (220)

 

3 Terminators (90)

 

LR (220)

 

5 Berzerkers (105)

 

5 Berzerkers (105)

 

5 Berzerkers (105)

 

LR (220)

 

LR (220)

 

LR (220)

 

Total: 1995

 

 

Watched a fellow proxy this list a couple games. It was basically a win-switch. Sit back and shoot. Roll onto objectives turn 5. If the marines get shot out, they can fight alright. It's more effective than a loyalist LR spam because you can spam more (6 versus 5). So it's a bit of a misnomer to call it LR rush. Our LRs aren't made to rush. Look to the loyalists for that.

 

Everyone talks about melta prevalence, but I rarely see enough to reliably take down this list. Dark Eldar, on the other hand...

[Corpse.]

I'm talking about a "lone anti tank unit" that can be wiped out ASAP if there is one. There are people I know who use devs, and other units people don't expect them to take. (Especially Vespids, 33 vespids tightly following a few devilfishes on the way in and then move them out of the way, all 33 shooting one marine unit at a time wiping it off the table, and costing little more then 13 terminators)

 

 

Minigun it's more a case of using the raiders assault ramp to knock out melta units that can be tied in melee. 12", 2" disembark(+ base size of whatever exits, 25mm or 40mm), 6" assault. That is far beyond melta range of 6" or even 12" if you play it right to your advantage. Little hard guessing the range against an attack bike multimelta though since they got 24" range with that melta rule, 12" move 12" half range. Usually they try to boost in like suicide squads and that is normally the mistake.

[the jeske]

I'm talking about a "lone anti tank unit" that can be wiped out ASAP if there is one. There are people I know who use devs, and other units people don't expect them to take. (Especially Vespids, 33 vespids tightly following a few devilfishes on the way in and then move them out of the way, all 33 shooting one marine unit at a time wiping it off the table, and costing little more then 13 terminators)

ok I dont realy want to do this army by army , but lets make some examples . How do you "wipe asap" two dreads drop poding on top of you on turn 1 , without having mystics ? or when someone uses MM attack bikes[and probably drop dreads or 5 mans stenguard in pods] how do you kill them asap when they LoS block with rhinos and you have 2 las and 1 hvy bolters vs 4 wounds and cover [thats when you are not moving because if you did you cant do nothing]. how do you counter asap a serpent that fish of furies dragons next to your LR . because your not going to take down a falcon or serpent with 6 lascanons [specialy if you moved]. Same can be done with IG vets and vendettas.

the BAs a VV or RAS unit can land almost on of you blow up the LR and in the case of VV charge you [thats when their Baals and dreads fail to do anything to your LR] . etc etc .

Also I kind of dont remember good lists that work with single easy to counter anti tank units .

 

 

I dont understand the vespid part as they are not a unit used in any good tau list.[specialy the wipe in a mech edition and considring how "tough" vespids are"].

 

Usually they try to boost in like suicide squads and that is normally the mistake.

aha so the LR rush build rules when your opponents do stupid things. good thing to build your tactics around .

+ I dont know if your noticed , but a lot of armies can deep strike or drop pod or disembark melta weapons well within 6-12" of a LR , be it on turn 1 or turn 2 .Yes those units offten die , but as most armies are mech the faster you pop your opponents transports the sooner you can run rings around your enemy for 2-3 turns and charging him on turn 4-5 when he is largly out guned and out meleed.

 

 

Try reserves, try different tactics instead of discounting units before they even hit the table.

oh yeah that one . well first all as a tournament gamer I test lists all the time . each time a new dex is out we test the old stuff too . I have played with LR rush builds[and by that I dont mean 1 game ] against each and every build played . i also played it out of all the legal dexs out there . For chaos the LR rush is highly situational and in no way as good as for the loyalist . Tactics are important , but you must forget that all LR rush armies play the same way . With one difference [well it actualy two , but am not going to do a DH tactica here]. Our LR are smaller , less shotier , have less support units then the loyalists have . Thats all on top of 5th ed being the melta/mecha edition . Can a LR rush army win ? yeah , technicly you can win with anything . But the question is if an army to work well requiers your opponent doing mistakes and not playing the "top of the game in this edition" anti tank weapon , is it realy good?

[Zhukov]

Is there any chance that the firepower on 3x Land Raiders is enough to knock out fast moving Melta units before they can hit home?

No way. Attack bikes hide; speeders deepstrike; pods deepstrike; troops in many armies have melta. On top of that you got Dark lances; Tau railguns (fusion guns too); IG even has got S10 Ordnance pie plates. All is impossible to take out with a couple of S9 shots.

 

I think you guys are taking what-if-hammer to an all time high. If you like a specific units fluff or looks then stick it in your list and learn how to use it. There's plenty of ways to be competitive with 'sub par' lists. Try reserves, try different tactics instead of discounting units before they even hit the table

Those things are all tried and they do not work against other good lists. What is being competative in your eyes?

 

Land raider rush may get ruined by some units, but with that logic you might as well not even play chaos. GW should just release a battle force with two daemon princes, oblits, and plague/zerk upgrades for that matter.

This is actually the biggest problem chaos has; the limited options of making different working/fluffy builds. So you are ironically enough right with this.

 

Armies that aren't absolutely loaded with melta will get rolled by it.

Everyone talks about melta prevalence, but I rarely see enough to reliably take down this list. Dark Eldar, on the other hand...

Thats kinda odd, as there should be quite a lot of armies out there who should. I mean Vulkan builds are all over the place, but other well-prepared lists should have some. Of course there are some lists out there who automaticly lose against a LR rush build, but there are also there who cause you to autolose. Thats not competative, thats playing with a risky build. You will 'luckily' win maybe 1 out of 7 tourneys because you meet 3 oponents in a row who cannot counter it well. Thats not warhammer 40k if you ask me.

 

 

You know the biggest problem i'm always having here on this chaos part of the forum is that so many people purely speak from their 'local metagame' perspective. You Corpse being the clearest example of that. It makes it almost impossible to discuss things as people always come up with extreme examples or stuff like 'it can work okay if you play well with it'.

Everything can work if you play against a bad oponent or if you get lucky meeting certain armies. But if you play against another good players and you come with a 'wacky' build you lose, at least in the long run it does not pay off. Its as simple as that. Does that mean you cannot try it? Of course not, everybody should do what they want if they have fun with it, but trying to convince others that it works is just...kinda wrong. If strange stuff like 33 Vespids should work, you would see it on more tourneys. Especially in the Chaos dex there are not any undiscovered strong builds/combos whatever.

[Corpse.]

Hey jeske,

 

I get in lots of games with my 1498 pt raider list. You'd be surprised how many people take that single long range unit, and have the rest of their army in transports or the like.

 

Two drop pod dreads? Get out charge with zerks and then get back in next turn?

 

Yeah people make mistakes, I didn't mention anything about relying on it. I realize your from another country and different ways of speaking may come off as bit of a taunt between languages. Don't mind if I ignore that part do ya? (the part where you assumed I relied on it and then spoke a little out of color)

 

The strength of a LR build, having 3 in 1500 is having those 6 TLLC pounding targets on turn one. Then rolling in turn 2+, so that the entirety of the game you try to play to the weakness of the enemy. (Much to the light of the water style if you've read it) Assuming a raider build for chaos always rolls in turn 1 is the reason why I mention "Wait, you should consider shooting for the first turn if it's a good idea!"

 

Not to be confused of better judgement in various situations.

[the jeske]

You'd be surprised how many people take that single long range unit, and have the rest of their army in transports or the like.

yes . and those bad players and bad lists . As Z said before using a set up or build and say that it good , because your opponents dont know how to play/build a list doesnt mean that your set up or build works .

 

Yeah people make mistakes, I didn't mention anything about relying on it.

dude . taking one anti tank unit in a mech edition is making a mistake at list building level .and considering there is interent out there and gaming forums and people that post their lists and how their games went doing a "mistake" like that is a lot worse then forgeting something when you actualy are playing .

 

 

The strength of a LR build, having 3 in 1500 is having those 6 TLLC pounding targets on turn one.

what happens if you dont get the first turn and he drop dreads two of your LR . or hides his whole army and does the poping on turn two when his anti tank comes [tau/Ig or eldar can do that easily , new deep striking BA ras too]? Not all games are played on lava boards and not all games let be the first one to shot .

 

 

(Much to the light of the water style if you've read it)

First of all corpse you know that I play WN NM since the dex came out . I dont read about warrior , I play it. go to the INQ part of the forum again and ask about water warrior and how does it work right now with LR. It doesnt [and their LR are more resilient then ours] .

[Dan The Deamon]

I think you guys are taking what-if-hammer to an all time high. If you like a specific units fluff or looks then stick it in your list and learn how to use it. There's plenty of ways to be competitive with 'sub par' lists. Try reserves, try different tactics instead of discounting units before they even hit the table

Those things are all tried and they do not work against other good lists. What is being competative in your eyes?

 

Land raider rush may get ruined by some units, but with that logic you might as well not even play chaos. GW should just release a battle force with two daemon princes, oblits, and plague/zerk upgrades for that matter.

This is actually the biggest problem chaos has; the limited options of making different working/fluffy builds. So you are ironically enough right with this.

 

 

Playing with chaos all star/net lists is just plain boring. I played with one for a while, and i got really sick of meeting new people and learning they've already played against my list about 1,000 times before ever meeting me. I realize All star is the 'only' way to play chaos competitively, it's just lame, unimaginative, and frankly tiresome. general-ship turns into mindless rinse repeat against every army you encounter.

 

I like to leave scars on my opponents with lists they don't know how to deal with.

[minigun762]

I played with one for a while, and i got really sick of meeting new people and learning they've already played against my list about 1,000 times before ever meeting me. I realize All star is the 'only' way to play chaos competitively, it's just lame, unimaginative, and frankly tiresome. general-ship turns into mindless rinse repeat against every army you encounter.

 

I think that could be said for many armies out there.

People quickly figure out the top few competitive builds and then repeat them ad nauseam.

 

 

Having said that, its even more true for Chaos since we only have one tier 1 list and two (maybe) tier 2 lists.

 

Just like anything else, we have to balance hte advice on the interwebs with our own playstyle, personal likes and what direction we want to take our army.

 

For me, one decision I made a long time ago was not to play with Oblits. Mostly because the model is terribad but also because I enjoy playing with a giant daemon crab of death. Most of the time, its a less competitive choice but I'm ok with that. What I need to figure out is how to use the units I like in the most competitive way.

[Dan The Deamon]

For me, one decision I made a long time ago was not to play with Oblits. Mostly because the model is terribad but also because I enjoy playing with a giant daemon crab of death. Most of the time, its a less competitive choice but I'm ok with that. What I need to figure out is how to use the units I like in the most competitive way.

 

Which is the reason i commented to begin with. It's certainly not top tier, because there's really only a few ways to play chaos. If we're going by what belong in tier 1 builds, or what you 'should' use, then 3/4 of the codex would get scrubbed.

 

Try reserves with them. Another thing i've always wanted to try is sticking a unit with melta in the raider. Be in chosen, plague, or termis, drive 12", 2" deployment, smoke a transport, and assault the occupants. Sure some armies may be able to do it better, but we have some units they don't, and with the proper synergy they can be quite mean.

[Corpse.]

Jeske... It's been what, a year and a half now? You haven't taken up a way to speak without belittling people constantly in most of your posts? I'm getting tired of seeing that. I know your a tourny player, but this is a website. No tournament going on in here.

 

*ignoring the part where you are calling people bad players and bad list makers*

 

 

Water style works if you have some units that make it possible. I have tank shocked and surrounded a unit where my 29 pistols tore apart 6 terminators without the need to assault. There are positions I've pushed up a corner of the table and wiped out all his long range stuff, making him retreat to a corner, with equal killpoints on both sides (he got the raider with the HQ) and I made just one last killpoint shooting a few transports the rest of the game.

 

It works. I say it works because I have been playing this list for months now. This very exact same list against: Nob Bikes, Flying Circus, harlequin tears+pathfinder, eldar shock and shoot, standard swarm guard, tank guard, nidzilla both new and old, chaos zilla(my own played by someone else), and I have come out with more victories than defeats against these lists. Played by tournament players, including one who has a local tournament score of 5 tournies won, 1 tourny not a winner. (So he calls it, he has 5 new 2k armies to prove his winnings)

 

Need I, a resume every time I say something works? Typing out proof and every situation when words are put into my mouth is very annoying, and which is the reason I don't come to here much anymore because "yeah, I think jeske is gonna put words into my mouth again, why bother..."...

 

So, chill. Ok? You may not realize it but you come off pretty insistent when you reply to people.

[Zhukov]

but this is a website. No tournament going on in here.

If you are talking about lists and if they work well or not, you are talking about tourney play on a website. Thats pretty normal, even mandatory I say. I mean if one doesnt care how effective something is, why talk about it? Talking about effectiveness is encouraging being critical.

 

 

It works. I say it works because I have been playing this list for months now. This very exact same list against: Nob Bikes, Flying Circus, harlequin tears+pathfinder, eldar shock and shoot, standard swarm guard, tank guard, nidzilla both new and old, chaos zilla(my own played by someone else), and I have come out with more victories than defeats against these lists.

This is an example. You come up with so examples of why it works, I give counter arguments:

How did the nob biker list look like? A normal one who turboboost first turn; you shoot down only a couple at max if you dont move, if you move it gets worse. Second turn they get beat by an enormous amount of S10 and S9 hits, the people inside the LR might not even get out of it due to being surrounded. No chance.

Flying Circus? 4th edition build, doesnt work anymore. Falcons fail especially close range due to melta + harlequins arent really good anymore, more mediocre especially in 6 man squads. Pathfinders are considered a mediocre unit at best too; a harlequin + pathfinder build is not viable in an allcomers environment.

I dont know what a shock and shoot list is, maybe you could explain that.

Swarm guard is tier 2 at best. What tank guard? Is it Mech guard with Av12 spam or really tanks like lots of Russes. Second one again is not a good build.

Nids are just not a really good army, tier 2 at best no matter what build you play, same with Chaos zilla.

 

A good build would roll over all the above builds, or maybe lose against 1 as some of them might be a Rock/paper/scissor list. Dies to one, rolls over the other. (harlequins + rangers die to droppod builds for example)

 

Played by tournament players, including one who has a local tournament score of 5 tournies won, 1 tourny not a winner. (So he calls it, he has 5 new 2k armies to prove his winnings)

Maybe you didnt read it, or did not reply to it but I say it again: you always give so much heavily specialised examples from a local metagame. Thats just not really credible in my opinion.

 

Need I, a resume every time I say something works? Typing out proof and every situation when words are put into my mouth is very annoying, and which is the reason I don't come to here much anymore because "yeah, I think jeske is gonna put words into my mouth again, why bother..."...

Maybe I shouldnt defend other people, but I do it nonetheless. If Jeske was speaking of things which made no sense all the time, would you be bothered? I think not, it seems to me that you just dont like to be critised. Its pretty simple: you have controversial ideas, expect opposition. If you dont want other people to comment in a negative way on your ideas and views, start a blog and delete posts which does not fit into your view. People like Jeske keep a forum alive and believe it or not: he is really helpfull to people who do not post; but who just read stuff on 40k sites to get to know what works and what not.

 

You are the one getting personal here, Jeske comments about your 40k ideas.

 

As long as nobody is rude (and Jeske is not; he's not calling you names or saying that you should not post your ideas anymore), just let everybody have his opinion. All in my opinion of course ^^

[the jeske]

I like to leave scars on my opponents with lists they don't know how to deal with.

well against good players that doeskt work . unless you go crazy with counts as and dont say what is where and what unit is where till you get a charge off . and even then the list works once against every guy played[well a good player]. there is really not much game play difference between certain lists from back in 3ed . if someone saw or played against those or even just skimed through the list , he knows he the list works . And yes I too think that chaos is boring . Till it was viable I played NM water warrior , but soon the list become too weak to play against even the most basic lists , not to mention top players.

also as LR rush goes. Well its an old list and the build is used in realy a lot of armies , I realy dont expect there is a lot of good players that dont know how LR rush works and how to play with and against it.

 

Try reserves with them. Another thing i've always wanted to try is sticking a unit with melta in the raider.

oh no . you dont want to see your LR coming on turn one when your opponent had one turn to set up and get closer to objective with a chance of seeing one LR on turn 2 [and it eating all the fire power the enemy army can get. MM attack bikes have a treat range of 36" . drop dreads 30" even rhino squads have 24" and thats wiuthout the first turn that gives each one a 12" ].

whole idea of LR rush is that you spam targets and your opponent has to deal with 2DP [thats also why DPs are better for a LR rush list out of chaos , then a lord or sorc ] and two 14AV tanks . he has a 50/50 chance of blowing them[aka the LR] up[a bit more if he plays vulkan] , but he still has to remember the DP and the fact that if the Dreads/attack bikes dont blow up the LR , they are dead ,because of the counter charge. removing the number of targets for your enemy is always a bad thing.

 

Jeske... It's been what, a year and a half now? You haven't taken up a way to speak without belittling people constantly in most of your posts? I'm getting tired of seeing that. I know your a tourny player, but this is a website. No tournament going on in here.

am talking about games and not tournaments here. and what is viable and what is not . tournaments have more to them then just one guy brining one list. there is team meta game , special scenarios etc. am talking here about the viability and bad sides of a LR chaos list in a normal one on one game.

Water style works if you have some units that make it possible. I have tank shocked and surrounded a unit where my 29 pistols tore apart 6 terminators without the need to assault. There are positions I've pushed up a corner of the table and wiped out all his long range stuff, making him retreat to a corner, with equal killpoints on both sides (he got the raider with the HQ) and I made just one last killpoint shooting a few transports the rest of the game.

ok . I dont understand what pistol wounds have in common with LR rush builds . because what your saying that someone was foosloggin terminators[bad idea 99% of time] and

using your whole army you killed me. well yeah that is what kind of a suppose to happen. the thing is and again It feels as if am writing this the 10th time , a good player is not going to put his only counter unit in front of your whole army unless he knows there is no way for them to die[like 10 BA termis with SS and TH a priest giving them FnP and libby] . he is going to use a 200 maybe a bit more points unit to blow up and slow down your army. Otherwise If he doesnt do that you are going to move 12 and then assault him and he will loose [am making the assumption here that in a LR rush army your using hth units] to you in hth.

 

 

It works. I say it works because I have been playing this list for months now. This very exact same list against: Nob Bikes, Flying Circus, harlequin tears+pathfinder, eldar shock and shoot, standard swarm guard, tank guard, nidzilla both new and old, chaos zilla(my own played by someone else), and I have come out with more victories than defeats against these lists. Played by tournament players, including one who has a local tournament score of 5 tournies won, 1 tourny not a winner. (So he calls it, he has 5 new 2k armies to prove his winnings)

ok corpse your the chaos game play genius . you somehow make lists that dont work , work very well . somehow the whole chaos community , including the chaos tournament players have seen how powerful and viable a 3 LR rush army is at 1500 pts and this is why you we dont see those armies as top chaos armies and someone how we dont why the 6 oblit 2 dps 2 zerker 2 pm armies are wining tournaments and placing high offten . even when people know how they play , because the codex is old.

 

Need I, a resume every time I say something works? Typing out proof and every situation when words are put into my mouth is very annoying, and which is the reason I don't come to here much anymore because "yeah, I think jeske is gonna put words into my mouth again, why bother..."...

ok. so it works . for you and your gaming group , with tournament winners. It somehow strangly doesnt work for anyelse . they somehow can win with LR rush builds and are placing lower then normal mecha lists all around the world. Also you gave ) proof to how you counter stuff. your LR seem to just stand there for one turn , untouched with enemy in los being blown up and stuned/shaken and them move and charge , and some how the armies you play against dont have enough anti tank to counter that, because anti tank and melt is not played 5th ed[also known as the mech/melta edition]. Ok I get that .

[Cornelias]

Please stop being disrespectful to people, uncontructive posting and character bashing is becoming more common and is drving people away from what used to be a great community forum.

 

Enough is enough ........

[Dan The Deamon]

Here is the basic message we're feeding old and new chaos players:

Anyone attempting to do anything with the chaos codex just reference and memorize;

Page 92, Daemon Princes

Page 97, plague marines

Page 98, Khorne Berzerkers

Page 100, Obliterator Cult.

 

@ 1500 spam above units

@ 1750 spam above units

@ 2000 spam above units

@ 2500 spam above units

 

(1750 and 2500 are played differently. Spam same units in a different order)

Nothing else is worth taking, ever, even if you like having fun other entries are not as good as those mentioned above, thus not optimal for play.

 

I'm not making personal attacks, or even pointing fingers. But we are witnessing the slow degradation of the chaos community.

 

 

"I'm feeling that gnawing feeling to redo my army list into something less cookie-cutter."

The guy asked for constructive opinions for a knowingly 'inferior' unit to be played in a 'less than cookie-cutter' fashion. He is a smart guy, he knows what he's getting into but asked for advice on how to do it, not if he should or not.