Twin Thunderfire Cannons!

[Tropicana]

Ohai!

 

This time, I'm wondering if anyone has experience with Twin Thunderfire Cannons? Does the duo - at 200 Points - do any better than a Vindicator-Whirlwind Pairing? I came across the idea in another Tactica Astartes Discussion, and have had it nudging in to all sorts of debates since, so I wanted to dedicatedly begin a Topic about the potential and success of running Two Thunderfires! Please do chip in with your experience, thoughts, complaints; anything that will win me over for Twin Thunderfires, or throw me away from them!

 

Tropicana

:P

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

Well, it really depends on your playstyle. If you are static then the twin TFCs are for you, as you could Bolster two ruins and have a nice firebase of 8 templates with nice damage. But then, TFCs have the reputation of being "glass cannons", which means that they explode when you sneeze at their general direction, sometimes even just thinking of being sneezed at, so keep them in cover.

 

If you want to go on the offensive, I would suggest the Vindi+WW combo, as they are more survivable. The Vindi would probably be on the move anyway, wreaking some Str10 AP2 havoc in the enemy lines while the Whirlwind sits out of sight and burns up the horde.

 

I prefer the latter anyway, probably because the Vindi+WW could also be used defensively. But you can't argue that TFCs are really fun to paint! :nuke:

[waaanial00]

Im not going to get on my soap box about it but it does frustrate me when people gall the Thudnerfire cannon a Glass Cannon. Depending on your list and deployment you can quite easily have one Thunderfire surviving the whole game and contributing to the game (I have done this many times).

 

However it makes no odds, generally all you need is two shots from the Thunderfire as this is pretty much the amount of time it takes for the average enemy to cross the board. Anyone who has played the Thunderfire will be able to tell you that it can survive 2 turns because generally people wont shoot it with enough firepower to ensure its distruction in 1 turn and generally I found that even people I know have played me before wont target it on the first turn because there are much better things to kill/stop from shooting.

 

I have yet to play a game where it was not a worthwhile buy, however I played a Whirlwind for 3 months without it impacting the game in any meaningful way beyond the first two games (which were just massively lucky games). Never run a Vindicator myself however I have played off against a few and these things are target prority 1 because they are a massive threat so it is highly likely that they will survive to shoot enough past turn 2 anyway.

 

Still this is my 2 cents, maybe I have just been playing against people unaware of the power of the Thunderfire. We will see when I play some of the board members next weekend who will probably know my tactics quite well by now.

 

Wan

[Tropicana]

Two thoughts on the survivability of Thunderfires, not from experience, but from drifting through the Rulebook and Codex a few times - glancing at factors relating to said Thunderfires - and trying to work at this from a theoretical point of view. I accept that a theoretical point of view is not sufficient when one turns up for a night of Gaming; one does not theoretically inflict 19 Wounds on yon Tyranid Unit! I wouldn't shrug it off entirely, though, as strategy - game-winning strategy - is purely theoretical, is it not? So; you can't shoot what you can't see. Wouldn't be hard to tuck the Thunderfires away in a Ruin, safely behind Pinning Snipers and such, and shred up the Battlefield that way. They also have the neat Subterranean Blast Shells which can hamper Advancing Hostiles by forcing them to take a Difficult Terrain Test, as well as lowering their numbers; they'd be slowed across the entire Battlefield, whilst seperate Units take shots and finish them off.

 

Taking an Offensive Angle, Two Thunderfire Cannons offer quite a deal of versatility; they can shake up Land Raiders together, split off Targets and lessen their Numbers and Bulk, or even pick on Advancing Hostiles with Subterranean Blasts, causing them to roll for Difficult Terrain, perhaps keeping them out of Shooting Range, or by the same token, out of Assault Range.

 

Tropicana

;)

[Jackelope King]

Thunderfires are glass cannons. They die with extraordinary ease. I've seen people use them with some success, but you almost have to build your army around them, shielding them with 2+ cover saves in ruins behind LOS-blocking friendly vehicles, scooting those vehicles around to open up lanes of fire. You only expose your Thunderfires and open up those lanes if the enemies who will remain after a volley will be unable to respond and destroy the now-exposed Thunderfires.

 

Between that and the insane cost GW decided to charge for them, I can't see a reason to use them. I prefer Preds in my heavy support slots.

[Tropicana]

...you almost have to build your army around them, shielding them with 2+ cover saves in ruins...

 

Any why not? Static Marines are built around the one spot anyway, are they not? More or less? And besides, what's the matter with Shielding them with the 2+ Cover Save that they get anyway, just for being Techmarines? And to further this, we can designate anything that could do damage to the Thunderfires as a Primary Target, focus fire, and take them out. If people's Thunderfire Cannons become Glass Cannons, it's because they don't pull things back and hold off assaulting to defend them sufficiently, so they can keep up the bombardment. Or, at least, I think so.

 

Tropicana

:tu:

[Arkios]

Insane cost? Thunderfire Cannons aren't expensive at all! A Techmarine with a servo harness from the Elites section (you know, armed just like the one that comes with the Thunderfire as part of its 100 point cost?) costs 75 points. So in reality, the Thunderfire Cannon it self costs a mere 25 points + the 75 point Techmarine gunner. And if the cannon gets to shoot once it will probably make its points back. If it shoots twice, it will definitely make its points back.

 

As far as 2 Thunderfires go, they will work well if you run a more static list. Make use of all of those Bolstered Ruins by sticking your fire base units in them. And when you stick the cannon in 3+ cover, it isn't really that much of a glass cannon anymore. Ive only lost 1 Cannon to shooting ever, and actually more to being charged by power weapon carying assault units, heheh. (If you want to devote an expensive assault unit to kill off a single Techmarine, be my guest!)

 

Against certain armies with a low volume of troops (Elite heavy Marines, for example) 2 thunderfires can sometimes be a bit unnecessary, but nothing is better than the one-two combo of cracking open a rhino with a missile/lascannon/autocannon, then laying 4 S6 blast templates on the bunched up Tactical squad and rolling 20+ dice that wound on a 2+

[minigun762]

My understanding was that JK was talking about the $$ cost of the model, not the unit.

[Tropicana]

I was about to say, that's how I understood it; the argument of pricing is certainly void otherwise!

[Jackelope King]

My understanding was that JK was talking about the $$ cost of the model, not the unit.

Correct. I ain't shelling out $50 for that hideous thing, and I've voluntarily bought Tau Piranhas! (Yes, I converted those to trim down on the ugly factor, but the point remains :P)

[Arkios]

Oh, sorry, I just assumed JK was referring to the points cost since this is the tactics forum and points efficiency is indeed something to consider when building/using a list. In that case.... the $$ cost is indeed pretty outrageous. Another non-gaming relating negative is the assembly of the model. What a nightmare that was! Nothing fit together without modification, and it seemed like multiple pieces had to be glued together simultaneously for them to sit properly, ugh!

[waaanial00]

I have long claimed that my Thunderfire model does so well because of all the blood I "sacrificed" in its construction. In conjunction with the sheer volume of curse words I uttered maybe i unlocked some kind of Chaos boon :wacko:

 

The model is the worst thing I have ever had the misfortune of assembling, just horrible! Which is a massive shame because its actually really good when you start using it but just WOW about how aweful the whole thing has been handled. Why the hell it has to be that sort of cost is beyond me, especially when they cant even get the mould right.

 

I ahve seen a couple of decent scratch build and kit bashes though, probably better than the model itself in some respects, apart from the Techmarine model which is just amazing. Nothing comes close to that IMO.

 

Wan

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

I kit-bashed my Thunderfire :)

[pattison]

Okay, noob question.

In the codex it does not state the independent statistics of the Thunderfire.

It always says Techmarine instead.

Does that mean that it counts as if the Techmarines had 2 wounds and by losing 1 of them he loses the Thunderfire?

[Frosty the Pyro]

I have long claimed that my Thunderfire model does so well because of all the blood I "sacrificed" in its construction. In conjunction with the sheer volume of curse words I uttered maybe i unlocked some kind of Chaos boon :)

 

The model is the worst thing I have ever had the misfortune of assembling, just horrible! Which is a massive shame because its actually really good when you start using it but just WOW about how aweful the whole thing has been handled. Why the hell it has to be that sort of cost is beyond me, especially when they cant even get the mould right.

 

I ahve seen a couple of decent scratch build and kit bashes though, probably better than the model itself in some respects, apart from the Techmarine model which is just amazing. Nothing comes close to that IMO.

 

Wan

Its because it wasnt desighned for space marines, their hands are too big. If you played epic you would know what size people desighned thunderfire cannons, and why its so tough for your marines to put them together.

 

 

 

Okay, noob question.

In the codex it does not state the independent statistics of the Thunderfire.

It always says Techmarine instead.

Does that mean that it counts as if the Techmarines had 2 wounds and by losing 1 of them he loses the Thunderfire?

The thunderfire is an artillery peice, In the BRB look up artillery (its in unit types) and your question will be answered, but no the techmarine does not have 2 wounds.

[pattison]

The thunderfire is an artillery peice, In the BRB look up artillery (its in unit types) and your question will be answered

Got it now, cheers!