Helsreach Novel Discussion

[Ashe Darke]

I give it an 8/10. It lost some points for some things, like the sense of time was a bit off, hard to keep track of where I was in the siege. At times, the action flowed from scene to scene without any connection, though this wasn't always the case. I loved some of the little references to Abnett work, the overall story was great but there does still appear to be some room for improvement. However, for an early Black Library work by a swiftly rising author, it was fantastic.

 

Some quick questions for the rest of you though.

 

 

Does the Forgemaster die when he fires Oberon? The words used indicate he did, but its not quite clear. Also, did Domoska die at the end?

Are you on about bits where for example it would imply there is gonna be a fight and then it skips to afterwards? I actually like that about Aaron's work, there's a lot of stuff that I don't need to know yet authors insist in putting in their books, he doesn't do this. I'm assuming it's to keep the pace up. When going to another BL author after having read one of Aaron's books I struggle at first because of the difference in writing style, his is just more interesting and actually tells me things I want to read.

 

The one things I will say though is that his use of distances is quite odd. During the fight where they meet orks for the first time Grimaldus smacks an ork and it said he flew 20m. That's about 60ft! I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe unless it was aided by a slope in the ship but even so I doubt the decks are tall enough to allow this to work. There is another instance where the distances seem a bit funny as well but I can't remember where.

 

 

I don't think he died. He did say 'Engine kill' after he fired. Not sure, damn you for casting doubts! Yeah I think so, I'm guessing he found her corpse.

 

[Vash113]

To answer the above questions about who lived and who died:

 

 

 

The Forge Master almost certainly lived, his farewell to Grimaldus is not on his part but because Grimaldus and those at the Basilica were almost certain to die while the Forge Master still had a Titan escort with which to leave the city and not so many Orks in his way. I see no reason why he wouldn't have completed his task of returning the Ordinatus to the Mechanicum though whether they would try to kill him later is not so clear.

 

As for Domoska, she's almost certainly dead, the wording when Grimaldus asked Andrej implies he found her but not alive. Though I was pleased Andrej survived, I suppose it would have been too much "romance" for both Ryken and Cyria and Andrej and Domoska to have lived, at least one couple needed to lose a partner I suppose to keep up the tragedy.

 

 

 

Anyway just finished the book myself, took me longer than usual as I was taking extensive notes for the Black Templars: A Comprehensive History and I hope to have all the relevant information edited into the article soon.

 

I greatly enjoyed the book and the story telling, there weren't nearly as many grammatical or plot errors as Rynn's World and the book flowed pretty well from scene to scene. Some things were a little abrupt but not too bad. One of the better Black Library publications lately in my opinion and along with Rynn's World it's nice to see the Sons of Dorn getting so much limelight.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Well I thought that

 

 

Jurisian was overwhelmed by the machine spirit after he fired, as the wording indicates that he succumbed to that and his exhaustion. Thats why I felt like he perhaps died. As to the story flow, I guess I've just been really used to Dan Abnett's Ghosts lately where its easy to follow the action and get a vast overarching view of the conflict. What I think ADB failed to deliver with this one, and its really the only flaw I can find with the book, is its hard to get a real sense of the time and vastness of the conflict involved. We really follow only little skirmish by little skirmish of the Templars and the occasional extra. That could just be me though, and it wasn't enough to great impact the book. As far as the whole 60 ft. thing, its a Crozius. Those things hit hard. The field around one can send things flying and orkz aren't all that heavy compared to say another space marine. One merely has to play some DoW with the Chaplain to see one of those send guys flying :D

 

[Vash113]

Well I thought that

 

 

Jurisian was overwhelmed by the machine spirit after he fired, as the wording indicates that he succumbed to that and his exhaustion. Thats why I felt like he perhaps died.

 

 

Well actually it says he was temporarily under mental assault by the furious machine spirit of Oberon but that the worst of the pain was subsiding when he contacted Grimaldus. The text didn't really indicate he was anywhere near being overwhelmed by the Machine Spirit.

 

 

 

As for the tempo of the book, well the Black Templars are the focus of the story, it makes sense that the events focused on would be pretty much solely those in which the Templars themselves participated.

[Ashe Darke]

Regarding the flow of time I found it to be fine. Sure he skips to the first time they lose Hel's Highway, but I really don't want to have to read about all the little things that happened between that point and the point we were at before. For him to cover like all 40 ish days of the siege would have been really dull.

Grimaldus mentions how many days of the siege it has been quite a bit in his monologues saying things like 'it's been 36 days since they first started the siege' etc. Maybe that wasn't enough to give you an idea of how time was passing but it was for me. He only really put the key bits in. The first day, when they lost the highway, when Storm Herald fell, the docks getting attacked, the Salamanders turning up etc.

 

 

Of course the whole time thing could be on purpose. It's hard to keep track of time when you barely sleep and you're slowly losing a war. By doing that you put the reader in their shoes although I didn't feel lost so if that was his intention he failed.

 

As for the distances, have you seen 20m? When I was 2 I got ran over twice in a row by the car (it hit me, I flew and skidded a bit, I got up but it was still going really fast and hit me again, I flew and skidded a bit) and in total I went about 10m according to my mum and the car was doing about 45mph if I remember what she told me correctly. Now I was tiny and this was a car flying along a main road and I only went half of how far this ork went and I skidded for most of it. The weight ratio between the car and me is far greater than Grimaldus to an ork and as for the forces involved I can't say having never seen a marine in action but a car going 45mph packs a punch. I really can't see an ork flying 20m, unless Armageddon's gravity is different from ours.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ok, so I finally got it and Im two Chapter in. Some notable moments for me:

 

 

 

 

When Grimaldus is promoted all I could think of was the way the Teutonic Knights use to conduct General Chapter, and that made me pretty damn happy right there. The idea of 900+ Astartes within the Temple of Dorn to see one of their own promoted is an awesome, awesome concept. I really like how they keep refering to their ranks in respect of 'the Eternal Crusade', thats a nice touch that really seems 'mission first' in my mind. The descriptions of the Temple are also just crazy, the idea that every relic is re-purified after a warp jump is both ridiculous and EXACTLY something I could see the Templars doing.

 

I also like the description of the hive and the only 900+ marines at Armageddon thing. It gives room for expansion and the later arrivals of Marshal Brant, etc, to bring the total up to 1200.

 

The way they consider themselves, and presented themselves to Kurov, as knights is also something new that I like. Its something I hd never really considered before, but I think the Templars would consider themselves the EMPEROR's Knights, and how they consider other Chapters 'lesser' makes me chuckle.

 

Another part I really enjoyed was when Helbrecht threw Grimaldus under the bus. I can only imagine how Grimaldus must have felt realizing the only reason he was promoted was to die. The exchange was perfect, in most respects, but I'll get to my nitpicks later. It gave me the same tingly feeling that I had watching Anakin get promoted to the council without being a master.

 

Nitpicks

[spolier]Grimaldus calling Helbrecht, by his name. I thought that was a bit... rough. I dont think such a blatant breach of protocol in front of everyone was very Templar like. Nor did I think his hissy fit would've happened in the meeting.I think he wouldve done it later on the ride back or something, but the fact that people like Tycho, Tu'Shan, Seth, Yarrick, Titan Commanders, and all other manner of badasses would have been in there kind of mortified me, like watching your two year old roll around on the ground at toys are us because he cant get a candy. I can see why, and it certainly doesnt ruin anything. Maybe that was the intention,I will never know. The other thing is that there are obviously too few Templars to hold the hive. I think Helbrecht would have done a bit more than send just 90 marines, maybe Im just being generous, he did have his hands full in space and Helsreach is supposed to be theStalingrad of 40K.

 

 

 

Favorite moments so far:

 

Helbrecht slapping Grimaldus, very Kingdom of Heaven, and that needed to be referenced in the book at least once.

 

The Angels of Fire Captain yelling at Yarrick and Yarrick just staring at him. That was awesome, just plain awesome. Almost like Yarrick was saying: do you know who I am? I AM YARRICK, I PHYSICALLY FOUGHT GHAZGHKULL AND SURVIVED! TWICE!!!!

 

 

Overall I cant wait to finish it. Ill be posting more mini reviews and one big conglomerated review in Amicus.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

It has not yet come to my part of the world :D

 

I am glad you guys have been using the spoiler function ~ I would be reading what's going on but be kicking myself at the same time :D

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Ya after all the suffering caused to Brother Nihm over in the Soul Hunter thread, I swiftly learned the spoiler function :D

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I loved the ruthlessness displayed by the Templars throughout the novel. They displayed loathing for weakness, did not tolerate deviation from destruction of the enemy, and continuously put the prosecution of the Crusade first and foremost. Their treatment of Brother-Astartes and humans was at times off-putting but Templars are supposed to be zealous, unshakable and driven to slay His Enemies first and foremost. Deviation to this and these ideals are what made other Chapters "Lesser" Astartes in the eyes of the BTs. Even with the individualistic nature of the characters in the book (including "The Meeting") the prosecution of the Emperor's enemies and the on-going galaxy-wide Crusade is ever present. I liked that :)

 

M2C: I dunno about the Grimmy going overboard. Templars are individualistic and notoriously zealous, even the other Chapters said so, and maybe they half-heartedly expected the High Marshal and Grimmy to throw down. Who do you think would win that one? :o Anyways, it was a breach of protocol but Grimmy thought he (and his men) were getting railed big-time. I understand his anger and he used it, and it was an excellent vessel to mold Grimmy into the commander he became. Yarrick was super-epic. I half-expected that Marine to catch fire or something. Notice who we take on Crusade with us right? Not those other guys or Marines ;)

 

I kind of liked the unmarked time and unspoken of battles. It rang of Tolkien and how he would leave certain major battles not fought on the pages of the text only to write of the terrible aftermath or consequences. It gave the feel that this siege never ended, like Groundhogs day from Hell. Armageddon!

 

Anyone going to field Grimmy on the table-top more because of this novel? I know I am! He used to be a sad panda on the bookshelf but now he is going to lead a Crusade often!

[Yogi]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2385315

 

Thats what I thought of it.. Since this is the real review thread.

[Ian MacKay]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2385315

 

Thats what I thought of it.. Since this is the real review thread.

 

Hm. I don't see this as a review thread. While we are discussing the book and there are parts that may read as a review, this IS the BT sub-forum. :) Since it's the first full book since the other two accounts of the 3rd war, I think we are entitled to having our own thread.

 

Finished the book about 30 minutes ago and spent my time since reading through this thread. It absolutely rocks! The characterization of Grimaldus and his command group is great. I'm so glad that A D-B did his research and brought up stuff that had basically been forgotten, i.e.

the Armageddon Ordinatus.

 

 

And yeah, this makes me want to pull out Grimaldus and start running him again. If nothing else, just as a fluff piece.

 

My only comment for A D-B is that he keeps talking about Grimaldus having a standard skull helm. The mini and artwork from the Codex don't show a skull, just a modified standard helm. Do I get another mini and do some conversion work now? :)

[Ashe Darke]

Well that was Mordred's helmet. Maybe he got own one after Helsreach although the cover shows him with the non-skull one.

[A D-B]

My only comment for A D-B is that he keeps talking about Grimaldus having a standard skull helm. The mini and artwork from the Codex don't show a skull, just a modified standard helm. Do I get another mini and do some conversion work now? :P

 

It's not a standard 'basic Chaplain skull helm' in the sense of the ones that they all wear, but if you look ultra-closely at the artwork - and the mini - it's stylised skull. Its cheeks are gaunter than many Astartes helms, and the mouth grille is rendered into clenched teeth. http://www.redknuckle.com/images/0808/grimaldus08_main.jpg.

 

I can explain the silver, too. That's more artistic license, though. In the back of Codex: Black Templars, there's a Grimaldus mini painted with a silver faceplate, and I absolutely loved the way it looked. I got it into my head that before he came into his own as a Chapter leader, he was still wearing the inherited helm with Mordred's old paint job on it. I'd assume it was something he'd change after Armageddon (or perhaps keep in memoriam).

[Ian MacKay]

My only comment for A D-B is that he keeps talking about Grimaldus having a standard skull helm. The mini and artwork from the Codex don't show a skull, just a modified standard helm. Do I get another mini and do some conversion work now? :)

 

It's not a standard 'basic Chaplain skull helm' in the sense of the ones that they all wear, but if you look ultra-closely at the artwork - and the mini - it's stylised skull. Its cheeks are gaunter than many Astartes helms, and the mouth grille is rendered into clenched teeth. http://www.redknuckle.com/images/0808/grimaldus08_main.jpg.

 

I can explain the silver, too. That's more artistic license, though. In the back of Codex: Black Templars, there's a Grimaldus mini painted with a silver faceplate, and I absolutely loved the way it looked. I got it into my head that before he came into his own as a Chapter leader, he was still wearing the inherited helm with Mordred's old paint job on it. I'd assume it was something he'd change after Armageddon (or perhaps keep in memoriam).

 

Thanks for the info A D-B! I was looking at the mini and the codex. I noticed the "teeth" but didn't really see the cheeks until you mentioned it. And I also love the silver Grimmy from the back of the Codex. I kinda figured that was where part of the inspiration for the silver helm came from. Another thought would be that his is an OLD helm and the more skull-y helms are a newer design.

 

I will be repainting the helmet on my Grimmy as an ode you to good sir!

[Chaplain ChonkE]

The author has proved me wrong though from one of my earlier forum posts! A Black Templar can

dispatch a soldier with wavering morale faster than a Commissar can pull his pistol. With his hands too :)

Happy face!

 

ADB: The Knights of Dorn demand that you write a Wars of Apostasy story with the Primogenitors, the Knights and our Bloody-Handed brothers! Seriously though, while I dont want you to get "typecast" (ha-ha) into being a Templar writer (or any one thing; you are too good) but please throw us a bone once in a while.

 

Oh yeah, bring Andrej back too :) A BL character I can relate to!

 

Oh yeah! Thanks for being one of the few authors in the BL who really gets Space Marines in my opinion. You write them very believably.

 

Oh yeah!

Was Yarrick in on the decision to choose Grimaldus or is that just up to the fans? It felt like it to me ;)

 

 

Until the End!

of this post.

 

edit: spells >.<

[Tybrus]

Get it read it, best BL book in a long time, and best BT book so far. You MUST read this if you like BT at all...

[Ashe Darke]

I'd go so far to say that even non-BT fans should read it. I didn't really know much about them prior to the book but reading it has made my respect for them grow and I quite like them now.

[Acebaur]

It's next on my list, right now I'm reading Rynn's World which is also very good and then after Hellsreach I plan to pick up Sons of Dorn. I'm glad to hear it was good, I can't wait to get it!

[Drac0]

I've finished reading both Sons of Dorn and Rynn's World, loved both. Waiting for Helreach to be available at my local store (ordered it months ago when I first heard it was being written)

[Brother Loring]

Unfortunately it's about 5th/6th on my list ;)

 

I'll get there eventually!

[Brother Chaplain Ryld]

I have ordered mine today. After all the reviews it has been getting I'm going to drop what I am currently reading and make a start. :D

[Tybrus]

Don't wait on this one, if you can get you're hands on it. I read almost every BL book that comes out, and have since the first Big ][ wars books. This is one of the top two or three books in the 40k setting (IMHO). This book will define the BT culture in 40k the way that crappy Ultra marine guy became the posterboy for them. The differnece is this is really well writen :( . Anyway, take it for what it is worth, but don't wait, because you will be sorry you did once you start reading it.

 

I am thinking you will be liking this book for sure, yes?

[Ashe Darke]

This book will define the BT culture in 40k the way that crappy Ultra marine guy became the posterboy for them.

I am thinking you will be liking this book for sure, yes?

;)

[Cerelius]

Just finished reading Helsreach, although was a very riveting read I found that it made you my Brothers look like savages always looking to spill blood and not the tactically mind Sons of Dorn that I'd come to expect. Now Dorn was a master of sieges and their defence, yet Grimaldus arrives at Helsreach and dosen't even ask why a world which has a history Orks dropping by for tea and cream cakes has walls that are paper thin. I'd be slapping the cities governor like a B###h. My point is that you Templars where portrayed in a very poor light. I won't spoil it for those that haven't read it but you'll see.

[Dangerman]

Well I just finished reading Helsreach, and it is fantastic. When I heard about the release of this book many months ago I couldn't wait to get it, and I also went on a spending binge on all the BT literature I could get. I also just finished Damnation Crusade with Brother Tankred.

 

What a well written book with a good plot. For some reason I imagined Andrej having a russian accent. I guess it was ending every question with a yes or no.

But one thing nags at me and its the ending

it was abrupt. The final stand was awesome, but it seemed a bit rushed. I wanted to find out about his survival after the collapse, but I didn't. Who found him? Did the Eternal Crusader break through to save him?

These were questions I had when I read his entry in the BT codex. But I'll just use my action movie inspired imagination :P

 

Nevertheless, this one is definitely standing proud on my public bookshelf.