Helsreach Novel Discussion

[saadeath]

Off topic sort of. I am reading the Horus heresy series, im stuck on mechanicium because the beginning is so dry and cannot seem to get through it. I was wondering if there is a book out yet about the battle on Terra with sigismund, dorn, and the emperor?

[Brother_Godric]

Mechanicum actually features Sigismund, if I recall. But no, though we are rapidly approaching the Battle of Terra. Tales of Heresy is very good if you'd like to see dearest Rogal Dorn. Sigismund features in Eisenstein as well, if I recall.

[Hardiharr]

I quite liked the book. I especially liked the addition of Priamus as the representation of the Black Templar that is hotheaded, egotistical, infuriatingly superior, holier-than-thou... you get the point. Shame not much came of him except for a few "You shouldn't be doing that!" lines from the other Black Templars.

 

Also, I was a bit shocked that Grimaldus had, y'know, emotions. Beyond rage, hatred and fury, that is. I suppose a one-dimensional master of oratory would be a bit boring, and I appreciate that the switch from first person to third person was meant to highlight the differences between public persona and the actual individual, but I don't know, it seemed like Grimaldus was a bit... underplayed? There was that one speech on the walls during the first assault that gave me SHIVERS. WONDERFUL speech, absolutely in-line with how I imagined it, but it never happened again, much to my dismay.

 

Overall, a great read with a few moments of mini-rage (I don't know, I just don't like the phrase "blacker than black," it just seems journeyman). I'm looking forward to more Black Templars fiction, because we are woefully underrepresented (though I suppose everyone is compared to the Blue Marines and Space Wolves).

[Ashe Darke]

Mechanicum actually features Sigismund, if I recall. But no, though we are rapidly approaching the Battle of Terra. Tales of Heresy is very good if you'd like to see dearest Rogal Dorn. Sigismund features in Eisenstein as well, if I recall.

We're really not. I said I thought we were a while ago and Aaron said that we really weren't. There's something like 7 years between the Drop Site Massacre and the siege so there's gonna be a fair few books before we get there. I heard a rumour that there's gonna be something like 42 books in total.

[Brother_Godric]

We're getting a good deal closer, though. With the the Wolves on Prospero, things are finally turning in the direction of Terra. (Though we still have to account for Corax, Konrad Curze, Angron, Roboute Guilliman, Sanguinius, Lorgar, Perturabo, Jaghatai Khan, Vulkan......)

[jma037]

One of the many things that bugged the hell out of me as I read Helsreach was the description of the city. It's suppose to be a HIVE. But all I read is streets, city blocks, titans that towers over hab-blocks, guns on roof tops pointed at the sky. Then there's that map in the middle of the book, clearly showing a city. But wait! What is that thing in the top right corner? Almost like an afterthrough, there is an elevation of a HIVE. Showing the "city" as a cross section of it's base levels...

 

So many "factual" errors. Two humans dragging a space marine in power armour. Unions with elected representitives. People on a planet called Armageddon that never held a lasgun before. A whole company of marines being send on a known suicide mission to make a point. And the fact that people give the reclusiarch so much lip. Talk to your boss like people talk to Grimdalus and see what happens.

 

Anyone else felt the same?

[c-wrex]

I just borrowed it from my work and read it over this weekend. To be honest, I think it was the best depiction of the Black Templar character that I have thus far encountered. The characters were cool, and the action left vivid images in my mind's-eye. I loved it.

 

Now I just have to get a hold of Soul Hunter...

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Who is to say that there are no unions with reps in the Imperium? Its a massive empire spanning thousands of planets and every one does things differently. Argmageddon as a name doesn't necessarily give an instant recognition of danger to people of the 41st Millenium as it does us. As to not holding a lasgun, its not Cadia. There are non combatants and civilians in Helsreach. Makes perfect sense.

 

As far as giving lip to Grimaldus, these are people who expect to die to the last man. What else do they have to lose? And Grimaldus isn't their boss. He nominally is supposed to defer to his counterparts in the IG and PDF though in practice most don't like to counter the wishes of an Astartes. Suicide missions are a bit par for course for Templar, and it wasn't the fact it was a suicide mission that bothered them it was that it was a suicide mission for something that in the Astartes' eyes wasn't worth their lives.

 

Not trying to sound like a fanboi here (though lets face it, I am) but most of your concerns a bit shallow and uninformed if you ask me. As to your concern on the Hive part of the city, well buildings tend to start falling down once artillery and looting begins. I would say once titans started stomping around, buildings crash down. In fact

When the Imperator titan goes down, its to a building falling on it. That has to be a huge building to pin a titan of that size

 

 

 

Sorry but sounds like a kneejerk reaction you've got there.

[A D-B]

Aaron looked thoughtful as he asked the question: "Is every single Imperial hive done in the classic Necromunda-style, or is it a generic, oppressive-sounding noun for Imperial urbanscapes?"

 

"It's the latter," said Games Workshop.

 

"Okay," said Aaron.

 

One of the many things that bugged the hell out of me as I read Helsreach was the description of the city. It's suppose to be a HIVE. But all I read is streets, city blocks, titans that towers over hab-blocks, guns on roof tops pointed at the sky. Then there's that map in the middle of the book, clearly showing a city. But wait! What is that thing in the top right corner? Almost like an afterthrough, there is an elevation of a HIVE. Showing the "city" as a cross section of it's base levels...

 

So many "factual" errors. Two humans dragging a space marine in power armour. Unions with elected representitives. People on a planet called Armageddon that never held a lasgun before. A whole company of marines being send on a known suicide mission to make a point. And the fact that people give the reclusiarch so much lip. Talk to your boss like people talk to Grimdalus and see what happens.

 

Anyone else felt the same?

 

I can't wait to show Dan Abnett this thread. He told me this day would come - it comes to us all - but now it's here, I can barely contain my glee.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Now that I think about it, wasn't Verunhive a rather diverse system of habs, skyscrapers and spires with varying levels of elevation and design with broad thoroughfares through key arteries...sort of like how Helsreach is described?

[Teutonicorder]

jumping in

 

as far as i was concerned when it came to hives, seeing the sky was not something the average man could look forward to in his life time and a sky view was prime real estate, these are huge towering structures way up into the sky, multiple levels etc. the number of people that are described as dying and living in side the hives alone and the shape of them, ie round and not that big in diameter yet towering up above everything else, doesnt work out too well.

 

most of the original posters points seem valid to me, and unfortunatly its not the first time. most of the 40k novels are loaded with flaws like this and others. used to laugh when chaos attacked the blood angels in those books in razorbacks, alwasy expected to see a world eaters landspeeder scream round the corner or some nonsense.

 

and again yeah the way the marines have been portrayed is to be holy warriors of awe etc and then grimaldus, a chaplain no less gets all that crap? weak imo.

[Sigismund Himself]

Does no one have eyes anymore? :P We've got a 4 page thread on Helsreach within the first three topics of the page. Can we please keep the discussion in that thread and save our mods having to merge a new thread every second day or so?

[Teutonicorder]

from Lexicanum "The sheer numbers of workers in a Hive makes them hard to control. Gangs grow up and control sections, fighting among themselves and millions subsists on scraps. Further up power reaches the ancient lighting system, while even further up, air circulation systems clean the air for those rich enough to afford it. It is a hierarchical system, and a ruthless one, but given sufficient forces to keep the populace down, it is a very efficient way of housing billions of people. If each person had a house on the ground, the entire planet would be overrun with living quarters and no room for production facilities"

 

 

it just seems to me that with 5 mins google time you can find out about stuff your going to try and write about and make money off and avoid fairly easy errors.

 

edit

 

yeah didnt see the other thread apologies

[Marshal Rohr]

Hives arn't all the same. If you look in Cities if Death the hive city shown clearly is not a big cone stuck in the ground.

 

 

Why must everyone on Armageddon have held a lasgun before? Why can't there be unions in 40K? The thing about the Imperium is that you are free to govern yourself right up until the moment martial law is declared. I'm sure in 40K civics class there are whole lessons devoted to self governance and democratic principals, all of which must be set aside In times of crisis.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

from Lexicanum "The sheer numbers of workers in a Hive makes them hard to control. Gangs grow up and control sections, fighting among themselves and millions subsists on scraps. Further up power reaches the ancient lighting system, while even further up, air circulation systems clean the air for those rich enough to afford it. It is a hierarchical system, and a ruthless one, but given sufficient forces to keep the populace down, it is a very efficient way of housing billions of people. If each person had a house on the ground, the entire planet would be overrun with living quarters and no room for production facilities"

 

 

it just seems to me that with 5 mins google time you can find out about stuff your going to try and write about and make money off and avoid fairly easy errors.

 

edit

 

yeah didnt see the other thread apologies

 

 

Unfortunately for Lexicanum though, it can but quote and source existing GW material and thus can be quoting sources that are dated or simply not complete. ADB on the other hand, can speak directly to GW themselves to check his facts which means ultimately, he has better resources than you or I do when it comes to fluff accuracy. (jeez I AM sounding like a total fanboi)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Aaron looked thoughtful as he asked the question: "Is every single Imperial hive done in the classic Necromunda-style, or is it a generic, oppressive-sounding noun for Imperial urbanscapes?"

 

"It's the latter," said Games Workshop.

 

"Okay," said Aaron.

 

I can't wait to show Dan Abnett this thread. He told me this day would come - it comes to us all - but now it's here, I can barely contain my glee.

 

I was wondering how you were going to handle this OP. I was imagining another slam like the "deleted scenes" post of yours. A more gentle riposte this time. Good self control ^_^ Still I guess it is wise to be gentle with your market-fans-critiques some of the time. :rolleyes:

[Teutonicorder]

ha your saying that the current GW staff know the fluff behind the products they sell which i find amusing :rolleyes:

 

and its true that as owners they can change any thing they want to but...

 

if 2moro we had happy marines spreading socialism with bolters that fired rainbows wouldnt we say something?

 

hobby with "fluff" like this is important to keep it straight and make it make sense. fundamental errors with regards to previous generations of fluff are annoying as hell.

 

just like slanesh sorcerors in a list with world eaters...pisses me off lol

 

anyway each to their own i guess.

[A D-B]

Unfortunately for Lexicanum though, it can but quote and source existing GW material and thus can be quoting sources that are dated or simply not complete.

 

Joking aside, if you quote Lexicanum as part of your research into canon, you're likely to be laughed out of GW's Nottingham HQ. I've seen a novel synopsis with a paragraph extracted from Lexicanum as part of its research, and the editors had marked the area with a prominent splash of red text, saying : "Don't ever do that again".

 

I was wondering how you were going to handle this OP. I was imagining another slam like the "deleted scenes" post of yours. A more gentle riposte this time. Good self control ^_^ Still I guess it is wise to be gentle with your market-fans-critiques some of the time. :rolleyes:

 

It's a myth that writers don't like critiques and criticism.

 

It's also a myth that all criticism is equally valid.

 

Licensed fiction is fraught with one thing above all: People who see things sliiiiightly differently to other people, who will act like the sky is falling when their personal expectations and perceptions aren't met, because their way is objectively the One True Way.

 

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to really, really angry people online. (And bad prequels).

[StrangeGuy]

GW > Lexicanum

[jma037]

It's the illustration in the middle of the book with the classic necromundian hive elevation that pissed me off the most.

 

Two man dragging a power armoured space marine around? C'mon! Get the basics right.

[Teutonicorder]

you might as well leave it, the "its my interpretation of..." card has been used.

[DasPanzerIstUber]

Does no one have eyes anymore? :rolleyes: We've got a 4 page thread on Helsreach within the first three topics of the page. Can we please keep the discussion in that thread and save our mods having to merge a new thread every second day or so?

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[A D-B]

you might as well leave it, the "its my interpretation of..." card has been used.

 

For the record, this attitude is exactly why most authors don't come to forums. I think it wears down the veterans after a while, and their advice to the new blood is always to never start coming in the first place.

[Sigismund Himself]

Seriously? This is the B&C. Can we at least be mildly polite while criticising and expressing our opinions?

 

I'll withhold judgement until I'd read it but from the point of view of someone who hasn't the read book, it seems your criticisms have been answered by a number of other readers as well as the author.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

On the dragging power armor note, power armor is made of a ceramic and titanium alloy I believe? I know ceramics aren't that heavy in comparison to say iron, and I can't imagine the titanium used would burden it much more. I can see 2 fairly fit humans dragging a space marine along. He would be pretty heavy, but its not unbelieveable.