heavy bolter vs missile launcher in scout squads

[Possessed Marine]

I was just wondering what the consensus on which heavy weapon is preferred in a scout squad, the ML or the HB... they both do well against hordes... the HB is better against MC's (hellfire shells) but the ML is better against vehicles (krak missile)... thoughts?

[gettothegone]

V Hordes

 

Hbolter - Up to 7ish Wounds wounding on 2s

Frag Missile- Up to 7ish wounds on 4s.

 

Winner, Hbolter/Hellfire Round

 

V MC (Tyranid MC Equivalents)

 

Hbolter - 1 wound on a 2 with hellfires, 3 Wounds on 5s regular, saves allowed on 3+ models.

ML - 1 Wound, no save allowed on 3+, Wounding on 2s

 

Winner, Missile Launcher

 

V Tanks

 

Hbolter - Max AV pen on 10s.

ML - Max AV pen on 13s.

 

Winner, Missile Launcher

 

This is pending all shots fired and all damage results are 6s.

 

 

When creating a list, one of my criteria is to make sure each squad has the ability to kill a tank. Scouts are no exception. Heavy bolter stays on the sprue.

[Jackelope King]

The Heavy Bolter isn't so great against most Monstrous Creatures anymore, since it only has AP4. More potential wounds on a 2+ are nice, but it honestly is debatable.

[Possessed Marine]

*snip*

V MC (Tyranid MC Equivalents)

 

Hbolter - 1 wound on a 2 with hellfires, 3 Wounds on 5s regular, saves allowed on 3+ models.

ML - 1 Wound, no save allowed on 3+, Wounding on 2s

 

Winner, Missile Launcher

 

*snip*

Nids have 3+ armor saves? did not know that

Edit: yea that would be kinda horrible against a demon prince

[gettothegone]

New Nid MC's are generically 3+ armor saves. I'm not 100% sure if you can bring them down to 2+ anymore. They offset this by adding more wounds, and regeneration. Both of which are obnoxious :wacko:

 

Any Nid player want to clarify?

[Xeonic]

Glancing at their summary sheet, most of the MCs have a 3+, tyrannofex has a 2+. Tyrant guard and tyranid prime also have a 3+ armor sv.

 

I take the HB most of the time when I'm using scout snipers. I take them to cause pinning checks and I play a lot of T4 armies that would be getting a 4+ cover vs a missile anyways, and the 2+ to wound template helps them to cause a few wounds here and there that they couldn't have otherwise.

 

You can purchase a 2+ for a tyrant for 40 pts. :wacko: At a glance it doesn't look like any other MC has that upgrade.

[gettothegone]

I take them to cause pinning checks and I play a lot of T4 armies

 

 

Good point, I mainly play 3+ and lots of tanks.

[Possessed Marine]

Glancing at their summary sheet, most of the MCs have a 3+, tyrannofex has a 2+. Tyrant guard and tyranid prime also have a 3+ armor sv.

 

I take the HB most of the time when I'm using scout snipers. I take them to cause pinning checks and I play a lot of T4 armies that would be getting a 4+ cover vs a missile anyways, and the 2+ to wound template helps them to cause a few wounds here and there that they couldn't have otherwise.

wow, really? been awhile since the last time I had to face them... they more buff now

[DarkGuard]

OT, both the missile launcher and the heavy bolter have their bonuses and perks. As someone has already ascertained, the missile launcher is better for tanks and the heavy bolter, through hellfire rounds is better for infantry. Now flexibility in a unit is all well and good, but sometimes everything is not what it seems. I will assume the heavy weapon is more likely to be paired with the sniper rifles here, as they are both heavy, and with large ranges go together well.

 

Consider, the missile launcher over the heavy bolter. Yes the heavy bolter is effective at infantry and MCs to an extent, but then the missile launcher is also good against MCs and pretty good at infantry. Plus it can take out tanks, brilliant! However, while diversity in a squad is good, consider the points spent on the rest of the squad. If you shoot that krak missile at a tank chances are your sniper rifles, bolters etc are not being used. So you're wasting most of the squad. Furthermore, unless you have Telion, your Scout is BS 3, half a chance to hit with one missile which may or may not penetrate and destroy the vehicle. Good use of unit? I don't think so.

 

Scouts are primarily anti-infantry, and while flexibility in the squad is good, I wouldn't want to pay those points for a weapons with half a chance to do the flexible part (taking out tanks) and excluding the rest of the squad, then choosing a weapon which enhances their primary purpose.

 

Missile launchers in Tactical squads I feel work better because you don't pay for them and they have a better BS, always handy. In Scout squads though I'd go for the heavy bolter. Hellfire rounds means you're unlikely to fire 'straight' shots, instead firing scatter shots which should be better for the Scouts, that BS 3 won't make much more difference than BS 4. The hellfire rounds are also very good at anti-infantry, something snipers can also do, and ranged match.

 

In shotgun units and CCW/BP never take a heavy weapon, limits their mobility, whereas for bolters I'd still prefer the heavy bolter or no weapon over the missile launcher.

 

Nothing is in vacuum, have another unit dedicated for long-range anti-tank, be it Devastators, Sternguard or combi-preds. If you want them to handle vehicles OK, slap meltabombs on them as well.

[Brightguy]

Very good arguments. I will point out that Sniper weapons are capable of achieving an AP of 12. Still well below the ML and a rare occurance overall, but it means that a ML in a Sniper Scout squad sniping at light transports isn't entirely a waste of the rest of the squad. Shooting at real tanks, I totally agree.

[Marlow]

New Nid MC's are generically 3+ armor saves. I'm not 100% sure if you can bring them down to 2+ anymore. They offset this by adding more wounds, and regeneration. Both of which are obnoxious :)

 

Any Nid player want to clarify?

Sure. Only the Hive Tyrant can be upgraded to have a 2+ save. The Tyrannfex (a Carifex variant) start with a 2+ save.

Rest of the monsters have a 3+ save (Harpy 4+ as it flys). The little bugs mostly have 5-6.

 

As for Scouts I would give a five man squad Missiles for flexibility but ten men with Talion gets Hvy Bolter as they will always be shooting infantry (assuming it is on the table).

[Possessed Marine]

*snip*

Nothing is in vacuum, have another unit dedicated for long-range anti-tank, be it Devastators, Sternguard or combi-preds. If you want them to handle vehicles OK, slap meltabombs on them as well.

absolutely, I definitely use other squads as primarily AT... was just wondering which would be better for the scouts... am thinking that the HB would be best for them... sure, the hellfire shells don't do as well on MC's as I originally thought, but hey, that's what sternguard are for... as for the blasts ML vs HB on hordes, then no contest, HB all the way

[DarkGuard]

Very good arguments. I will point out that Sniper weapons are capable of achieving an AP of 12. Still well below the ML and a rare occurance overall, but it means that a ML in a Sniper Scout squad sniping at light transports isn't entirely a waste of the rest of the squad. Shooting at real tanks, I totally agree.

 

Good point there, Scouts can trouble vehicles. However, it is hardly worth the effort with their mediocre BS and the fact that you need to rend and then to even trouble AV 12 roll high once again. If you're lucky you could knock a Land Speeder or something out of action, but I prefer to take my chances with more potent units. However, if you're going for light vehicles the heavy bolter is still good, just use normal rounds and you've got S 5 shots which can knock out things like Land Speeders and Dark Eldar Raiders as well.

 

absolutely, I definitely use other squads as primarily AT... was just wondering which would be better for the scouts... am thinking that the HB would be best for them... sure, the hellfire shells don't do as well on MC's as I originally thought, but hey, that's what sternguard are for... as for the blasts ML vs HB on hordes, then no contest, HB all the way

 

Exactly my point. Although Space Marine units can be diversified to threaten many different units, there still tends to be a primary focus on what units can handle. No matter what load out Scouts are anti-infantry. They can do a decent job on MCs because of snipers if they're outfitted as such, and can also threaten vehicles, but they aren't good at it. Likewise, MM attack bikes are good for threatening vehicles, but they can't handle infantry as well as Scouts due to a low amount of shots and attacks. So I'd use Scouts for anti-infantry, therefore HB, and something like MM ABs for anti-tank.