Favourite Primarch.

[Guerilla Commando]

I've only just got the first two books, im on part 2 chapter 5 and so far Horus... definatley!

Just cannot wait until his fall to chaos :D

[Guillermus of Eisenheim]

I've got as far as Legion, and I'd say my favourite Primarch is Horus or Mortarion (with honourable mentions to Dorn and Fulgrim). You can't really go wrong with a man who calls himself the Death Lord and walks happily into battle brandishing a scythe. Or maybe that's just me.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

The answer is always Sanguinius.

This. Nothing more to say. ^_^

[Kassill]

For Russ and the Allfather! Nuff said.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

just wonder Wilhelm, if what you spoiled tagged wasnt for the benefit of a egotistical being.

 

WLK

 

Like who? Horus :P

 

 

I just think it is funny that Magnus was seen as Champion material AND that he wouldn't conform to Chaos's plans [at the time] and yet the Emperor chose Horus, Chaos's second choice and one who became naughty quite quickly. When you consider that Magnus had compacted with Tzeentch from a long way out, and still was not yet ripe for Chaos's plan, it makes me wonder if the Emperor and Magnus had an open and broken meeting with one another, could they have stopped the horse from bolting?

 

 

Hey, I have to make hay whilst the sun is shining, before the Book of Lies comes out and my lupine brothers become unreasonable. :P More unreasonable :cuss

 

I think Magnus was greater than the other Primarchs, even if he didn't have Horus's midas touch with people. The fighter-mage always has the greater potential than regular fighters.

 

He goes toe to toe with Russ [i would think he and Angron would be in the 'best' category for that] and yet has powers above and beyond any other Primarch.

 

I think he was the greatest of the Primarchs, and probably always will.

That he became Traitor [rather than simply seeking greatness à la Horus, etc.] due to circumstance [and I am including the Emperor's lack of guidance in this] as well as doing deals naively, is so tragic. He never wanted to turn Traitor. Even Ahriman is wanting to prove their loyalty to the Emperor on The Planet of Sorcerers

 

[Brother Saturnus]

For me its Fulgrim, he killed Ferrus Manus and struck down Roboute Guilliman. For second it a contest between Konrad Kurze and Lorgar. I like the loyalist primarchs a lot, but the traitor primarchs are to me so much more interesting.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Wilhelm: some sources state (Collected Heresy) the Emperor had shared deep knowledge of the Warp with Magnus, but by his arrival tzeentch already had his claws into Magnus, who dismissed the Emperor's words of caution. (which would make the EMperor's enraged reaction to Magnus's heresies more understandable).

 

he did stand toe to toe against Russ, but only after accepting Tzeentch's boon, which wasnt good enough to defeat his opponent. Only when Russ had him posed to break him back did Magnus realize how utterly doomed he was and take the cowards way out.

 

(if your going to be biased, so can I. :P )

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

@Wilhelm: some sources state (Collected Heresy) the Emperor had shared deep knowledge of the Warp with Magnus, but by his arrival tzeentch already had his claws into Magnus, who dismissed the Emperor's words of caution. (which would make the EMperor's enraged reaction to Magnus's heresies more understandable).

he did stand toe to toe against Russ, but only after accepting Tzeentch's boon, which wasnt good enough to defeat his opponent. Only when Russ had him posed to break him back did Magnus realize how utterly doomed he was and take the cowards way out.

(if your going to be biased, so can I. :) )

 

I'm not biased ~ I'm the one telling the truth! :P

 

 

What if Magnus had confessed he compacted with Tzeentch to save his Legion, just after Nikea, I wonder what the Emperor would have done?

 

Why do you say Magnus accepted Tzeentch's boon ~ I had thought Magnus had simply stopped being discreet in his majesty?....

 

[asmunder]

favorites

Leman Russ: He was butchered, true. But I choose to cling that Properro Burns will fix Russ. He had a pure thought process, and actually was unfettered by the politics that the other primarchs were bound to. Even Gulliman chose to side with Corax instead of Alpharius because he would need his legion, Mortarion tried to be better than Angron of Fulgrim in the mind of Horus, and Angron was just a weapon. Finally, Russ was described from a 1k sons point of view, I'm sure he was more characturful than that when he was planning...

 

Corax: Haven't heard Raven's Flight yet, but I love the way raven guard act, I like that they aren't a GW postercild, and they do their own thing. Just me though.

Honorubale mention: Ferrus: He was portrayed well, though I honestly think he could of dropped the Firesword, and strangled Fulgrim with his bear, metal, hands. And then he would of still died, but there would be much more of mark left on Horus's army. The only thing that put corax above him is that he seemed kind of innocent and childish, I thought he would be a bit older and wiser.

 

Least:

Magnus: He totally deserved every iota of pain and suffering Russ gave him. He also acted rashly, and kindof/sortof didn't even battle alongside his legion. He just talked to Tzeench, sucked them all onto the Sorceror's Planet, and said a bad line like: "Welcome, brothers, TO THE RED PLANET!!! Would you like a booth, a warp-side view, or a table? And can I get you anything to drink while you're deciding, perhaps a bottle of our finest CHANGE?!"

End Magnus Rant.

Lion: There is nothing less cool then a dude hopping around a forest, killing wierd creatures. However, he also had a very knightly feel to his character, and that's why Magnus is below.

[Candleshoes]

I think he was the greatest of the Primarchs, and probably always will.

 

I would argue he of all the Primarchs had the greatest potential of all his brothers in The Emperor's ideal future. His role was unique, and thus, above the regular comparisons.

 

With this in mind, for all he was to accomplish, he fell harder, and through more scathing ignorance, than any Primarch. He was greater, and created to be greater, in many ways than his brothers, but his self made weaknesses were blindingly plain to see by his equals.

 

He was literally (and legally) put to death by his peers, his family, his father. Every one of them accepted it without hesitation. Not one of his brothers would help or speak to his name, even as Prospero burned. His greatness will always be shadowed by his ignorance.

[Valtonis]

isn't Johnson a slang for penis?

 

so Lion El'Johnson = Lion the Penis = Lion the Dick?

 

so that is why he behaves like a dick! ;)

 

fully intended by GW

[Legatus]

I can understand the animosity towards Guilliman by a lot of people (too much favourable hype will do that), but I really don't understand the bad rep Lion'El Jonson is often getting on here. I cannot remember anything particularly dislikeable he has ever done in the fluff. He had his conflict with Russ, but come on, that is a neat bit of 40K lore. I suspect it may have been that one Black Library novel where he is smeared by one of the Fallen. That this was contradicted by the actual Dark Angels background and was nothing more than a ploy was lost on a lot of readers (similar to Sahaals ramblings in Lord of the Night).

 

Lion'El Jonson had an upbringing similar to Konrad Curze, only where Curze grew up alone on the streets, Jonson grew up alone in the wilderness. As a Primarch he is noted for his tactical brilliance, and his Legion was second only to Horus in the amount of victories they had won during the Great Crusade. But he was reclusive and introvert, and was not very open or casual with his brothers. Not really a people's person, overall. Still, that is nothing to dislike him for.

[Wrath of Terra]

isn't Johnson a slang for penis?

 

so Lion El'Johnson = Lion the Penis = Lion the Dick?

 

so that is why he behaves like a dick! ;)

 

fully intended by GW

 

Wonderfully appropriate!

[Brother Saturnus]

... I suspect it may have been that one Black Library novel where he is smeared by one of the Fallen.....

 

Im not sure if this is the reason, but in Angels of Darkness Astellan the fallen claims to have knowledge that lion el'johnson waited during the siege of terra to deploy his armies to see who won( or would win) the battle for supremacy. I like Lion El'Johnson alot more after seeing This conversion by euphoriatea.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Wilhelm:

If Magnus confessed his first betrayal to the Emperor, I would liek to say that the Emperor, being as powerful as he was, could/would try to find a way to salvage the situation and save his son. We all know the burned/victimized can become the most dangerous combatant if pushed the right way.

 

but, as this is 40k and everything must be much more "grimdark" than common sense would require, he would have purged Magnus and his traitorous legion.

 

and the 2nd piece, well, my copy of a thousand sons, is currently rotating around my gaming group, so i cant find the exact passage, but again i fall back to the CH, where Magnus first appears on the battlefields of Prospero. the description given of Magnus is a being in description of a being in command of sorcerous powers beyond what any sane being should know. the thunderous steps crackling enegry and breaking the earth beneath him, his sole eye searing the air with power, all marks (in my opinion) of one fully embracing his sorcerous gifts...and who was the deity that commands sorcery again?

 

WLK

[Legatus]

Im not sure if this is the reason, but in Angels of Darkness Astellan the fallen claims to have knowledge that lion el'johnson waited during the siege of terra to deploy his armies to see who won( or would win) the battle for supremacy.

That is the source I was refering to, yes. A lot of people take that readily as fact. I have just hunted down that passage and have read it. Astelan is convinced that he himself has acted in the best interest of the Emperor (and in a very lame twist, apparently the Dark Angels internal conflict has been caused by misunderstandings instead of one side turning to Chaos), but what he is saying at the end is not fact. Astelan did not know what the Dark Angels under Jonson had done during the later stages of the Great Crusade or what they had done during the Great Crusade.

 

Here is the passage (spoilers in case someone wants to read the novel later):

 

'You will not,' Astelan told him. 'Now it is your turn to decide, as must we all, which path your life will follow. Go now and return with your warlock and take up your implements of pain, and I will never divulge the secrets I keep within me. Not even your psyker will be able to probe them free from my soul. But if you stay, if you listen, I will freely tell them to you.'

'And why would you do such a thing?' Boreas asked, not looking back.

'Because I wish to save you as much as you wish to save me,' Astelan said, pushing himself to his feet, gasping as pain flooded his body. 'Through pain and suffering, you will not hear my words, you will be blinded to the truth. But if you listen, as you asked me to listen, then you will learn many things you would not otherwise unearth.'

'What inner secrets?' Boreas turned. 'What more could you tell me?'

'An interesting thought, a concern of mine,' Astelan said, meeting the Chaplain's gaze.

'And what is that?' Boreas asked, stepping back through the door.

'Though we heard little at the time, and accounts of it afterwards are hard to uncover, I have learned as much as I can about the siege of the Emperor's Palace and the battle for Terra at the end of the Horus Heresy,' Astelan explained as hurriedly as his ravaged lungs allowed. 'It is a stirring tale, I am sure you agree. There are stories of the exploits of the Imperial Fists holding the wall against the frenzied assaults of the World Eaters. There is praise running into hundreds of pages for the White Scars and their daring attacks on the landing sites. There are even accounts, most false I suspect, of how the Emperor teleported onto Horus's battle barge and the two fought in titanic conflict.'

'What of it?' Boreas asked suspiciously.

'Where in all these tales of battle and heroism are the Dark Angels?' Astelan replied.

'The Lion was leading the Legion to Terra's defence, but faced many battles and arrived too late,' Boreas said.

'So, Lion El'Jonson, greatest strategist of the Imperium, who was never once defeated in battle, was delayed? I find that hard to believe.' Astelan's strength failed him again and he slumped back against the interrogation slab, his legs buckling under him.

'And what would you believe, heretic?' Boreas demanded.

'There is a very simple reason why Lion El'Jonson did not take part in the final battles of the Horus Heresy.' Astelan let himself drop to the floor, his back against the stone table, his eyes closed. 'It is beautifully simple, when you consider it. He was waiting.'

'Waiting? For what?' Boreas asked quietly.

Astelan looked into Boreas's eyes, seeing the curiosity that was now there.

'He was waiting to see which side won, of course.'

Boreas stepped into the cell, and closed the door behind him.

 

Astelan had no knowledge of what had happened. What he states is purely his own suspicion. He is basically just wondering why there are no heroic stories about how the Dark Angels defended Terra, and he cannot believe that Jonson could just have been delayed, so his conclusion is that Jonson was not intervening on purpose, and what purpose that was in his opinion.

 

The same conclusions could be drawn for why there are no heroic accounts about the Space Wolves or the Ultramarines defending the Imperial Palace. And believe it or not, people have actually said that about Guilliman.

[Pulse]

Astelan is convinced that he himself has acted in the best interest of the Emperor (and in a very lame twist, apparently the Dark Angels internal conflict has been caused by misunderstandings instead of one side turning to Chaos), but what he is saying at the end is not fact. Astelan did not know what the Dark Angels under Jonson had done during the later stages of the Great Crusade or what they had done during the Great Crusade.

I don't see that as a lame twist, it is just different. With all the other Legions turning on each other with loyalists and traitors, a simple misunderstanding breaks the monotony.

 

Astelan did not know what the Dark Angels under Jonson had done during the later stages of the Great Crusade or what they had done during the Great Crusade.

He didn't know the facts your right but the conversation between Astelan and Asmodai after Boreas leaves, pretty much seals it.

[Legatus]

He didn't know the facts your right but the conversation between Astelan and Asmodai after Boreas leaves, pretty much seals it.

Ah, I hadn't checked out that bit earlier. I am not sure I understand what it is you are getting out of that passage. The rest of Astelan's story was mainly about how Jonson had not been an infallible being, but had instead been paranoid and perhaps disregarding of human lives. That seems to be with what he has in part sown doubt in Boreas with. (I am assuming you are refering to a silencing of Boreas or something like that. Perhaps I should have read the entire book to be able to debate the finer points of it.)

 

 

Other topic, while browsing through it I found this little gem, concerning "favourite Primarchs" and all:

 

"Roboute Guilliman was the greatest of the primarchs, and never once wavered in his dedication and service. But he was inferior to Horus in every way. He was not as able-minded, nor as charismatic, and not as physically adept. Why was it that Horus turned to the powers of Chaos, perfect as he supposedly was, when Guilliman, his inferior, is still renowned ten thousand years later as the shining example of a primarch?

It is because Guilliman had learned incorruptibility. For whatever reason, from whatever source, Guilliman had shaped his mind to make it impregnable to the lure of power and personal ambition. He said Space Marines were unsullied by self-aggrandisement, and he spoke truly for he took all Space Marines to be as worthy as himself. Horus, somewhere in his upbringing, had learned a fatal weakness, a chink in the armour of his soul that allowed him to consider himself greater than the Emperor. He turned against his master, as did those who also had such flaws, and eventually Horus was killed and the others driven into the Eye of Terror where they stay to this day, nursing their flaws, reinforcing their prejudices."

 

That is not said by an Ultramarine or an Imperial Historian, it is said by a Dark Angel. A very cynical one at that, so not one you would just expect to echo commonly propagated praise. It should also be said that he is one of the Fallen Angels, though, but he is one of those that are convinced that they had been in the right, and he never considered himself to act in anything other than the Emperor's interest.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I can understand the animosity towards Guilliman by a lot of people (too much favourable hype will do that), but I really don't understand the bad rep Lion'El Jonson is often getting on here. I cannot remember anything particularly dislikeable he has ever done in the fluff. He had his conflict with Russ, but come on, that is a neat bit of 40K lore. I suspect it may have been that one Black Library novel where he is smeared by one of the Fallen. That this was contradicted by the actual Dark Angels background and was nothing more than a ploy was lost on a lot of readers (similar to Sahaals ramblings in Lord of the Night).

 

Lion'El Jonson had an upbringing similar to Konrad Curze, only where Curze grew up alone on the streets, Jonson grew up alone in the wilderness. As a Primarch he is noted for his tactical brilliance, and his Legion was second only to Horus in the amount of victories they had won during the Great Crusade. But he was reclusive and introvert, and was not very open or casual with his brothers. Not really a people's person, overall. Still, that is nothing to dislike him for.

 

Here here!

 

I do like that the DA schism is not just another Chaos thing. If you are not with us, you must be chaos :D

I think GW missed a great opportunity with The Red Corsairs by turning them into Chaos Marines in Eye of Terror-lite. Having them just as self focused, selfish and self-made Marines would have been far cooler. They could have broken the monotony of Marine hatred for Xenos and interacted with them, etc.

 

But they give us another bunch of Chaos Marines, like 9 Legions weren't enough :P

 

It is funny that Russ never is assumed to be a traitor, and yet Guilliman and The Lion cop it.... :huh:

[Pulse]

Other topic, while browsing through it I found this little gem, concerning "favourite Primarchs" and all:

 

"Roboute Guilliman was the greatest of the primarchs, and never once wavered in his dedication and service. But he was inferior to Horus in every way. He was not as able-minded, nor as charismatic, and not as physically adept. Why was it that Horus turned to the powers of Chaos, perfect as he supposedly was, when Guilliman, his inferior, is still renowned ten thousand years later as the shining example of a primarch?

It is because Guilliman had learned incorruptibility. For whatever reason, from whatever source, Guilliman had shaped his mind to make it impregnable to the lure of power and personal ambition. He said Space Marines were unsullied by self-aggrandisement, and he spoke truly for he took all Space Marines to be as worthy as himself. Horus, somewhere in his upbringing, had learned a fatal weakness, a chink in the armour of his soul that allowed him to consider himself greater than the Emperor. He turned against his master, as did those who also had such flaws, and eventually Horus was killed and the others driven into the Eye of Terror where they stay to this day, nursing their flaws, reinforcing their prejudices."

That is a nice snippet, where did you find that? ;)

 

I can't imagine Horus ever saw himself as greater than the Emperor at anytime, before his fall into heresy. It has been said numerous times that the primarchs each had a trait of the Emperor, Horus had his ambition. That would surely be fanned by the corrupting words of chaos and would only then be seen by others as thinking himself greater surely?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It is funny that Russ never is assumed to be a traitor, and yet Guilliman and The Lion cop it.... ;)

 

Not to be a fanboy, but i think why Russ is never assumed to be a traitor is simple: his upbringing. He was raised in a culture where the strongest leader was the chief, and those lesser than him swore loyalty to him.

Through this chief, the vassal would be granted certain rights and properties as long as he did the duties as assigned to him to his utmost skill. As long as the Chief stayed worthy, he held control by might. If the Chief proved to be false, a coward or ineffective he would have been slain and replaced.

 

the Emperor, in defeating Russ in combat, proved his superiority to a being that had yet to find anybody that could equal him, let alone defeat him. In his seemingly simple minded way, Russ had ensured that anybody that could defeat him would be somebody worth following. I would say that the tribal beliefs of pre-Imperial Fenris probably had representations of the Chaos gods, and in this primitve manner they had a ideal of the vileness they faced. Russ, in being a psychic anomaly (as said in A Thousand Sons) might have aided him in escaping the gaze of the fell powers.

 

Now, if Horus has declared his intent openly, without murdering half of his own followers and acting like a b movie villian, Russ might have been more receptive to his message (in the HH books it is mentioned that RUss is already unhappy with the remembrancers, and implies [or i thought it did] witht he newly raised governing body of Terra). But, using trickery, deceit and kinslaying as the tools for his rise, all Horus did was insure that Russ would oppose him.

According to the Collected Heresy, Horus made no attempts to corrupt Russ. Maybe he held a dim view of Russ, or thought his tribal upbringing would prevent him from betraying the Emperor.

Only time will tell.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

That is a nice snippet, where did you find that? ;)

It's from "Angels of Darkness" from one of Astelans speeches.

 

 

Not to be a fanboy, but i think why Russ is never assumed to be a traitor is simple: his upbringing.

I think what Marshal Wilhelm meant was that Jonson, Guilliman and Russ were all late to the party. But while jonson and Guilliman have both been accused to "delay their arrival on purpose to see who would win" (in case of Jonson admittedly inspired by that novel), Russ has not. As far as I am aware anyway. We all probably have seen the accusations been brought up against Jonson, and I personally have seen it being raised against Guilliman, but not against Russ. Perhaps someone has made such a claim at some point, the interweb is a large realm.

[Guillermus of Eisenheim]

I've never seen anyone call Russ a traitor, I think Wolf Lord is right. Russ would need to see proof that Horus was worth following, which would probably Horus beating him in battle.

 

Also, if he'd joined the traitors, there would have been anarchy in the ranks. Can you imagine Fulgrim's face if Horus told him he'd have to work with the Space Wolves? ;)

 

And as for the Ultramarines being late, wasn't that something to do with them being attacked by the Word Bearers?

[infinite_array]

Just like to say, chalk up a vote for Magnus the Red, the Crimson King.

 

He's the perfect 'tragic hero', and (for me, personally) is one of the Primarchs with the most character and personality. His personal and continued sacrifice to try and save the fates of the Thousand Sons, his thirst for knowledge, his personal flaw in the belief of his own mental superiority - all of these things make the superhuman demi-god, well, human.

 

If there's a time and place (and I certainly hope that there is!) that gifts me with the money and chance to buy the resin 'black tar heroin' that is Forgeworld, it will be with MK IV Maximus armor (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine-Infantry-Accessories/MK-IV-MAXIMUS-ARMOUR.html), in order to create a Pre-Hersey Thousand Sons force.

[Pulse]

It's from "Angels of Darkness" from one of Astelans speeches.

Hahaha is it? I have had the book since it was first released years ago and i have read it countless times - i am suprised i don't remember it... ;)