Sternguard with Storm Bolters

[Imperial Patriot]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post ever. I've read pretty much the whole tactics sub-forum but I've never really had many questions that I didn't just PM.

 

I was wondering, how many of you equip your sternguard with storm bolters? I'm assuming that even with an SB they get their special ammunition since ammo is different than the gun firing them. I know they're more effective but I'm wondering, do you guys think it's worth the cost?

 

I've toyed around with idea of adding in some PAGK; they would be slightly cheaper, give up special ammo and an attack but gain a higher BS and the force weapon. As for allying in, I'm posting my questions regarding that in another thread right away.

 

As a modeling note; would an opponent usually allow the sterguard default guns to count as SB or would you need a bunch of SB's from AoBR termies or something? Also, is it kosher to paint up tacticals as elites at the tournament level, they are PA after all.

 

Lastly, I've heard around here that Libby with Gate is the way to go with Sterguard; would equipping with SB make a more convincing argument for Lysander or Pedro, especially at lower point games where 2 HQ's is prohibitively expensive?

 

Thanks for the help.

[Xeonic]

Specialist ammo can only be fired from a boltgun, or boltgun component on a combi weapon.

That's the kicker for storm bolter sternguard, by losing their boltguns the entire unit loses effectiveness and versatility.

 

Grey knights have a version of the old True Grit USR, they get a bonus attack from their storm bolter and as such have the same number of attacks as sternguard(the justicar gets +1 over sarge), but nemesis force weapons are S6, so they're even more effective in CC.

 

If you want an all storm bolter equipped squad like that, grey knights are the way to go, honestly.

 

I personally don't feel gate is an effective way to transport stergnuard, as you will always have to worry about scatter, however I have seen it used to devestating effect in the past(I've also seen a lot of mishaps...), I personally put them in a rhino. Gate is a nice backup, but IMO not reliable enough a lot of the time.

[Captain Idaho]

I considered doing such a thing but changed my mind when I realised for just 10 points extra per model you can get Terminators which have a superior save, an invulnerable save and a powerfist on every model.

 

If you could use their special ammo it would probably have been worth it, but unfortunately it just isn't worth the effort in my view.

 

A Command squad could have all Storm Bolters mind, kind of like a poor man's Terminator squad clocking in for just 127pts. Still, there are more efficient ways of doing things...

[Brother Rathul]

Lysander comes in hany if u want to do that. Saved me a couple times.

[Grey Mage]

As seems to have been stated, it would truely be an epic water unit... if it wasnt 5 extra points to lose their most potent, and most aspected, ability- special ammunitions.

 

That being said, 10 Sterngaurd are an amazing unit. I reccommend 3 Combi-meltas and a Powerfist for full squads, supported by a Dreadnaught with a LR weapon of choice... its a potent fire base thats no slouch in assault, and can even be made scoring via Pedro.

[Imperial Patriot]

Is there an FAQ about this, because as I read their entry I don't see anything about them losing their ammo if they change their guns. If they use a combi-weapon they still keep their special ammo, so why not a storm bolter which is said to be a twin barrel assault version (same ammo size?) of the bolter.

[Giga]

Sternguard can't use their special ammo if they replace their boltguns with bolters.

 

If you want storm bolters, it's always better to just get tactical terminators or allied gray knights instead.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Sternguard cannot use special ammo if they replace their bolter at all

[pingo]

Is there an FAQ about this, because as I read their entry I don't see anything about them losing their ammo if they change their guns. If they use a combi-weapon they still keep their special ammo, so why not a storm bolter which is said to be a twin barrel assault version (same ammo size?) of the bolter.

 

Logical, but I think it's a matter of game balance.

 

Imagine the damage they could do with their special ammo firing 20 shots up to 24''. Or firing 20 shots then assaulting. Too deadly I think.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

LOL wishful thinking however, perhaps.

 

Can you imagine the cries of overpowered and cheese if that were the case. forget the new BA codex, sternguard w/SB ftw!

[Grey Mage]

Is there an FAQ about this, because as I read their entry I don't see anything about them losing their ammo if they change their guns. If they use a combi-weapon they still keep their special ammo, so why not a storm bolter which is said to be a twin barrel assault version (same ammo size?) of the bolter.

Because a Stormbolter is not on the list of allowed weapons, while a Combi-bolter as a "boltgun" wich is on the list and has the additional rule of an alternative type of shot once a game. If a Stormbolter was considered a boltgun with the assault 2 rule then we could use special ammunition with them.

[angry man]

wouldn't matter anyway as all of the special ammunition are type:rapid fire

 

AM

[Grey Mage]

It would matter because then we could use them... even if it did make the weapon rapid fire.

[Zynk Kaladin]

What's the difference between a bolter and a boltgun? I would think a boltgun, well, fires "bolts" (Space Marine mini rockets). Considering the stormbolter fires bolts I would think the sternguard ammunition would work. Or am just I being asinine?

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

In theory you would think it is possible, but on the tabletop sadly it's not.

[Grey Mage]

What's the difference between a bolter and a boltgun? I would think a boltgun, well, fires "bolts" (Space Marine mini rockets). Considering the stormbolter fires bolts I would think the sternguard ammunition would work. Or am just I being asinine?

Actually, your not reading your codex- a bolter IS a boltgun, a bolt pistol is not.... nor is a stormbolter. "bolter" is a slang term, like "ride" is a car.

[Xeonic]

What's the difference between a bolter and a boltgun? I would think a boltgun, well, fires "bolts" (Space Marine mini rockets). Considering the stormbolter fires bolts I would think the sternguard ammunition would work. Or am just I being asinine?

Fluffwise, the argument is compelling, storm bolters should infact just be fast firing bolters. Rules wise they're miles apart.

 

P63"Each boltgun-armed model... Each special ammunition type replaces the boltgun profile(including boltguns that are part of a combi-weapon)..."

 

P97 Boltgun profile here. Note that it refers to the boltgun as a bolter, then gives the profile for the weapon referred to as "Boltgun"

 

P99 "A storm bolter resembles two boltguns attached side by side..." Note that this only mentions boltgun as a resemblance. Storm bolters, while having the same strength, AP, and maximum range, have a different profile from a boltgun, they are assault 2.

 

P100 gets special note, hellfire rounds can -only- be used in a boltgun. It's worth noting that a combi weapon -is- a boltgun with a boltgun profile, and thus can fire hellfire rounds as well.

 

So yes, fluffwise maaaybe. Rules wise, it has to have a boltgun profile to replace to fire special ammo. Since a storm bolter only resembles a boltgun as far as the armory is concerned and has it's own profile, it cannot fire special issue ammunition. Consider perhaps that a storm bolter could be a different caliber than a normal bolter, thus the extra range and accuracy on the move, I mean bolt pistols also have a similar profile to boltguns and are often referred to as a smaller calibre(resulting in reduced effective range). They all fire similar projectiles based around similar technology(as does the heavy bolter), but as far as capability goes, all bolt weapons are slightly different.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Yea I can see balance-wise why the stormbolter can't fire the sternguard ammo, I was just being stingy :lol:

 

However, the difference between a boltgun and bolter was a legitimate question. Why do I need to read my codex when you can just spoon feed me the info? :D Thanks guys.

 

I'd just like to say... Chicks dig my bolter.

[Imperial Patriot]

I echo Xeonic here. After reading it several times I see that Boltgun is a specific word used to describe a certain gun, not a family of gun type. Thanks for the help clarifying this matter. At the start of their special ammo entry it says only boltgun armed models get the ammo and then goes on to include combi's but not storms.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Also though storm bolters and boltguns are the same callaber projectile, they have very different magazines, and loading ammo from one magazine type into another is likely herasy.

[Ookami_81]

LOL !

 

True that: Bolt weapons, excluding Heavy bolters, have the same caliber, .75. (The HB is 1.00.)

 

If you want a fluffy reason, think about a real firearm: there are plenty of other stats than only ammo caliber to define a bullet and its casing. Cartridge length, bullet length and weight, bullet external material (lead or jacketed for example), explosive load, etc. etc.

Some weapons accepts many different ammos of the same caliber, others don't, especially sophisticated ones. Try firing lead only bullets in a auto/semi-auto or precision rifle, you'll see what I mean.

 

It seems to me that a storm bolter, being 24' assault 2, uses the same caliber, OK, but not the same mini rockets: they have to be longer to extend range, so it's not the same ammunition. The same goes with bolt pistols, same ol' .75 warhead, but shorter rocket engine.

 

They implemented special ammunitions for boltguns and Heavy Bolters because these are the most massively produced bolt-type weapons, and so are their ammunitions.

 

Storm bolters are a rare specialist weapon, so they will not produce special ammunitions for the special gun. Simply not cost effective.

 

Plus imagine the complexity of a dual cannon dual fed bolt weapon with selective fire on special ammos ! A techmarine nightmare ! :)

[BrotherMoses]

Excellent in depth analysis Ookami. Always inciteful to hear a gun fans thoughts on this topic.

 

I really so no point in taking storm bolters on sternguard. It ruins their versatility. I remember thinking it was a good idea for like half a second, but then I was thinking I'd just get the special ammo profile but get to shoot twice! Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

[Ookami_81]

Sternguards are a "BIG SLAM IN YA FACE" when rapid firing special ammos from their bolters.

If you're afraid of being charged after:

- don't, and tell yourself they are, like any soldier, expandables.

- if against hordes take one or two heavy flamers and breathe... fire !

- if against mech army/MCs army, take combi meltas

- if against MEq, take combi plasma. But I hate overheating things and I prefer heavy-flamers even for the MEq armies. There's a bonus: lot of fun converting HF PA marines from a deva heavy weapon ! :)