Combining Blood Angels and Grey Knights

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Having had a look through the Blood Angels codex, I'm struck by the insanity of some of the units and rules on offer. The big expensive characters aren't really what matters with the army; it's all about the new abilities and support units making their bread and butter like Assault Marines, Dreadnoughts, Death Company, Baal Preds etc even more insane.

 

Now, our poor codex meanwhile languishes in relative obscurity, and the fluff reference in the Storm Raven entry got me thinking. What if we used our 'ally in' capability to get access to this new gear, and build a Grey Knight strikeforce that could work? I mean, you'd have to ignore pretty much most of the Blood Angels army list to do it (because it would seem just weird to have Sang. Guard or Death Company etc), and the Grey Knights are going to take up a lot of points and transport space, but maybe...

 

Anyway, having thrashed out a few concept builds, this final one is probably what I'm going to settle on. Until they release a model for the Storm Ravens, I'll have to use my Valks to count-as, but I'm sure thats what everyone is doing for now.

 

HQ:

 

Grandmaster Alaric w/nemesis force weapon+storm bolter, 'Hammerhand'

(155 points)

Terminator w/incinerator, 3 x Terminators w/storm bolters

(199 points)

 

Reclusiarch Darius (count-as Epistolary), 'Unleash Rage' and 'Sanguine Sword' psychic powers

(150 points)

 

Elite:

 

(2) Reaper Dreadnought w/soul claws, meltagun, storm bolter, magna-grapple (count-as Furioso Dreadnought)

(140 points each)

 

Apothecary Nemios and Uriah

(100 points)

 

Troops:

 

(2) Exorcist Sergeant w/powerfist+inferno pistol, Exorcist w/flamer, 6 x Exorcists, Rhino (count-as Assault squad)

(199 points each)

 

(2) Justicar w/meltabombs+targeter, 2 x Grey Knights w/incinerators, 7 x Grey Knights w/storm bolters

(306 points)

 

Heavy Support:

 

(3) Storm Raven w/twin-linked multi-melta, twin-linked plasma cannon, 4 x hunter-killer missiles

(200 points each)

 

Total: 2,500pts

 

KP: 14

Infantry: 4 x TDA, 36 x PA

Vehicles: 2 x AV13 walkers, 3 x AV12 fast skimmers, 2 x AV11 fast transports

IC: 1 x TDA, 3 x PA

 

edit: Changed so now the Dreadnoughts are in Elite. They get AV13 frontal and it makes no difference to my number of scoring units. They're also more controllable than DC Dreads, although less awesome in combat.

[number6]

In general, I think the Exorcists count-as BA is a great idea. However, your army list is currently illegal as you can't take a DC dreadnought unless you also take at least 5 DC (5 DC per DC dread is the rule.)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Hmmm...ok well I'll just drop one of the PAGK squads and replace them with 10 x Death Company and a Chaplain in Elite.

 

Anything else you reckon needs changing? I'm debating whether to switch up one of the Reapers to have DCCW's instead, to give the Exorcist Veterans (aka Death Company) help if they need to pop a tank.

[number6]

Well, in concept I don't think DC maps to "veterans" very well. Yes, they will pack a major whallop in CC, but Rage is a real killer. Units you can't control don't sound like "veterans" to me.

 

If it were me, I would try and run librarian dreads as a GK dreads, for example. GKs are all supposed to be psykers, I think that works.

 

I'd use the storm ravens to transport GKs, of course.

 

And I'd otherwise use BA assault squads to represent Exorcist "veterans". Chaplains and Sanguinary priests are all major buffs for such units, and in the case of SPs, the entire army, so you can get plenty of mileage out of them that way, I would think.

[Valerian]

Well, in concept I don't think DC maps to "veterans" very well. Yes, they will pack a major whallop in CC, but Rage is a real killer. Units you can't control don't sound like "veterans" to me.

 

If it were me, I would try and run librarian dreads as a GK dreads, for example. GKs are all supposed to be psykers, I think that works.

 

I'd use the storm ravens to transport GKs, of course.

 

And I'd otherwise use BA assault squads to represent Exorcist "veterans". Chaplains and Sanguinary priests are all major buffs for such units, and in the case of SPs, the entire army, so you can get plenty of mileage out of them that way, I would think.

 

Agree with Number6 -

 

HQ:

I would keep your HQ the same. Epistolary Librarian as your required HQ in the base army (Blood Angels) and Grey Knight GM with Retinue as your Allied HQ. What is your plan for the Librarian, however? Who does he attach to? You don't want to leave him on his own, of course.

 

Elites:

Get rid of the Chaplain, and instead use two of your slots to take Blood Angels Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts. These can be Grey Knights in your fluff/background and painted as such to represent our psychic prowess, but will have to be counts-as Blood Angels, since they are the ones with the rules for Psychic Dreadnoughts.

 

Use your remaining Elite slot to take 3 Sanguinary Priests. Assign two to accompany the two Blood Angels Assault Squads, who will need the FNP as they cross the battlefield to come to grips with the enemy. Put the third in Terminator Armour and attach him to your Grand Master and Retinue. GKT unit with Feel No Pain and Furious Charge? Yes, please!

 

Troops:

 

Go with your original Troops selection with two units of Excorcists Assault Squads in Rhinos (counts-as Blood Angels), and two units of PAGK.

 

Fast Attack:

 

None

 

Heavy Support:

 

3x Stormravens.

 

You can then put the two PAGK squads and the GKTs each in a Stormraven, while the Assault Squads go in Rhinos. Fuiroso Librarian Dreadnoughts can use Wings of Sanguinius to move like Jump Infantry, thus everything closes hard and fast.

 

Pretty cool concept, although quite expensive. I play a DIY Blood Angels-based Marine army as well as Grey Knights and might have to try this myself.

 

Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

The two Super faux MCs aside, I feel currently the two most, lets say 'standout' things in the Codex are;

 

Sanguinary Priests

Dual Blood Talons

 

Any way to get them into a List with Grey Knights and Storm Ravens can only be a good thing. :lol:

 

I also like the look of the Frag Cannon! :lol:

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, in concept I don't think DC maps to "veterans" very well. Yes, they will pack a major whallop in CC, but Rage is a real killer. Units you can't control don't sound like "veterans" to me.

 

If it were me, I would try and run librarian dreads as a GK dreads, for example. GKs are all supposed to be psykers, I think that works.

 

I'd use the storm ravens to transport GKs, of course.

 

And I'd otherwise use BA assault squads to represent Exorcist "veterans". Chaplains and Sanguinary priests are all major buffs for such units, and in the case of SPs, the entire army, so you can get plenty of mileage out of them that way, I would think.

 

Yeah, but Death Company Dreadnoughts are so damn sexy...especially with blood talons. Ah well, maybe you're right. My problem with Librarian Dreadnoughts is that while they are cool, they cost so much more. I'll see if I can shift some points around and squeeze them in.

 

HQ:

I would keep your HQ the same. Epistolary Librarian as your required HQ in the base army (Blood Angels) and Grey Knight GM with Retinue as your Allied HQ. What is your plan for the Librarian, however? Who does he attach to? You don't want to leave him on his own, of course.

 

They're rolling together. Hence why I didn't give him TDA, so I can fit the Libby and Apothecary in the same Storm Raven. 'Unleash Rage' + 'Furious Charge' is pretty much gg.

 

Elites:

Get rid of the Chaplain, and instead use two of your slots to take Blood Angels Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts. These can be Grey Knights in your fluff/background and painted as such to represent our psychic prowess, but will have to be counts-as Blood Angels, since they are the ones with the rules for Psychic Dreadnoughts.

 

I only took the Chaplain to accompany the Death Company (re-rolls to hit and wound? Hells yeah!). Again, I'm kinda tossing up about the Librarian Dreadnoughts. They have some nice rules, but $$$ in points terms.

 

Use your remaining Elite slot to take 3 Sanguinary Priests. Assign two to accompany the two Blood Angels Assault Squads, who will need the FNP as they cross the battlefield to come to grips with the enemy. Put the third in Terminator Armour and attach him to your Grand Master and Retinue. GKT unit with Feel No Pain and Furious Charge? Yes, please!

 

Something to remember is that the Apothecaries have a 6" bubble of awesome, so you only need one for two squads. So I can get by with two of them (one to go with the Grandmaster+Libby, one to go with the Assault squads). I'm not taking TDA because that chews up points and it means I can't fit him and the Libby in the same Storm Raven as the Grandmaster+retinue.

 

Go with your original Troops selection with two units of Excorcists Assault Squads in Rhinos (counts-as Blood Angels), and two units of PAGK.

 

I find it hilarious how they've costed Assault squads. They have no heavy weapon, but they can spam special weapons, and they get a transport for free usually (unless you do something crazy like buy them a Landraider, in which case you still get a big discount). And they only cost 2pts more than Tac Marines. Insane.

 

You can then put the two PAGK squads and the GKTs each in a Stormraven, while the Assault Squads go in Rhinos. Fuiroso Librarian Dreadnoughts can use Wings of Sanguinius to move like Jump Infantry, thus everything closes hard and fast.

 

Hmmmm....I hadn't thought of using 'Wings' with the Dreadnoughts. Thats actually pretty bad-ass, certainly better than 'Fleet' on the DC Dreadnoughts. I'm just wondering if a S6 force weapon can make up for blood talons.

 

Pretty cool concept, although quite expensive. I play a DIY Blood Angels-based Marine army as well as Grey Knights and might have to try this myself.

 

Oh yeah, I'd never field this in a smaller game, it won't scale at all.

 

Given that GW gave a massive hint that we're getting Storm Ravens in our new codex, I'm not going to wait around lol.

[Valerian]

Well, in concept I don't think DC maps to "veterans" very well. Yes, they will pack a major whallop in CC, but Rage is a real killer. Units you can't control don't sound like "veterans" to me.

 

If it were me, I would try and run librarian dreads as a GK dreads, for example. GKs are all supposed to be psykers, I think that works.

 

I'd use the storm ravens to transport GKs, of course.

 

And I'd otherwise use BA assault squads to represent Exorcist "veterans". Chaplains and Sanguinary priests are all major buffs for such units, and in the case of SPs, the entire army, so you can get plenty of mileage out of them that way, I would think.

 

Yeah, but Death Company Dreadnoughts are so damn sexy...especially with blood talons. Ah well, maybe you're right. My problem with Librarian Dreadnoughts is that while they are cool, they cost so much more. I'll see if I can shift some points around and squeeze them in.

 

Death Company Dreadnoughts are cool, and Blood Talons are also very attractive, but you have to take the 10 DC to get them, and that is a problem for me. With Rage the DC can't be controlled, even with a Chaplain. Even with all of their good capabilities this is a huge drawback for me, and doesn't really fit well with a Grey Knight/Exorcist theme. I'de rather go for the two Furiosos. Regular Furiosos are the same price, whereas Librarian Furiosos will cost you an extra 50 points each. By cutting out the more expensive Death Company you will get some of these points back.

 

HQ:

I would keep your HQ the same. Epistolary Librarian as your required HQ in the base army (Blood Angels) and Grey Knight GM with Retinue as your Allied HQ. What is your plan for the Librarian, however? Who does he attach to? You don't want to leave him on his own, of course.

 

They're rolling together. Hence why I didn't give him TDA, so I can fit the Libby and Apothecary in the same Storm Raven. 'Unleash Rage' + 'Furious Charge' is pretty much gg.

 

I'd definitely keep a Sanguinary Priest with the GKTs, as it'll make them very capable. Adding the Librarian to the unit, too, however might be overkill for a single "Death Star" unit. I'd recommend spreading the love a bit and use him to attach to and support a seperate unit (maybe one of the PAGK squads in a different Stormraven).

 

Elites:

Get rid of the Chaplain, and instead use two of your slots to take Blood Angels Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts. These can be Grey Knights in your fluff/background and painted as such to represent our psychic prowess, but will have to be counts-as Blood Angels, since they are the ones with the rules for Psychic Dreadnoughts.

 

I only took the Chaplain to accompany the Death Company (re-rolls to hit and wound? Hells yeah!). Again, I'm kinda tossing up about the Librarian Dreadnoughts. They have some nice rules, but $$$ in points terms.

 

The money you save by not taking the Chaplain will easily pay for the upgrade from Death Company Dreads to highly mobile (with Wings of Sanguinius) Librarian Furiosos.

 

Use your remaining Elite slot to take 3 Sanguinary Priests. Assign two to accompany the two Blood Angels Assault Squads, who will need the FNP as they cross the battlefield to come to grips with the enemy. Put the third in Terminator Armour and attach him to your Grand Master and Retinue. GKT unit with Feel No Pain and Furious Charge? Yes, please!

 

Something to remember is that the Apothecaries have a 6" bubble of awesome, so you only need one for two squads. So I can get by with two of them (one to go with the Grandmaster+Libby, one to go with the Assault squads). I'm not taking TDA because that chews up points and it means I can't fit him and the Libby in the same Storm Raven as the Grandmaster+retinue.

 

Yes, the Sanguinary Priest has the 6" bubble which grants Feel No Pain and Furious Charge, but there is no guarantee that your two Assault Squads will always, or even ever, be anywhere near each other. What if the objectives they need to take from enemy control are spread apart? I'd find the extra 65 points (Sanguinary Priest plus Power Weapon) to get the third SP.

 

Go with your original Troops selection with two units of Excorcists Assault Squads in Rhinos (counts-as Blood Angels), and two units of PAGK.

 

I find it hilarious how they've costed Assault squads. They have no heavy weapon, but they can spam special weapons, and they get a transport for free usually (unless you do something crazy like buy them a Landraider, in which case you still get a big discount). And they only cost 2pts more than Tac Marines. Insane.

 

Yep, it's a pretty good deal.

 

You can then put the two PAGK squads and the GKTs each in a Stormraven, while the Assault Squads go in Rhinos. Fuiroso Librarian Dreadnoughts can use Wings of Sanguinius to move like Jump Infantry, thus everything closes hard and fast.

 

Hmmmm....I hadn't thought of using 'Wings' with the Dreadnoughts. Thats actually pretty bad-ass, certainly better than 'Fleet' on the DC Dreadnoughts. I'm just wondering if a S6 force weapon can make up for blood talons.

 

The Blood Talons are nice, and the S6 Force Weapon won't be able to make up for that, but the Furioso Librarian still has its S10 Blood Fist (DCCW) too. Also, they get two Psychic Powers. Don't think about what they'll necessarily do own their own, but think about how all of your units will work together/support each other. DC Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons will shred enemy units if they can get to them. Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts can disrupt, block, and destroy units over time, as all of your other units (GKTs, PAGKs, and Assault Squads) can shred pretty well in close combat anyway. I think the Assault Squads can take the place of/fill the same role that IST squads fill in many Daemonhunter lists.

 

Pretty cool concept, although quite expensive. I play a DIY Blood Angels-based Marine army as well as Grey Knights and might have to try this myself.

 

Oh yeah, I'd never field this in a smaller game, it won't scale at all.

 

Given that GW gave a massive hint that we're getting Storm Ravens in our new codex, I'm not going to wait around lol.

 

I'm only going to wait because I don't have any models for them and don't feel the urge to build my own yet.

 

Best of luck,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm lucky that the guys I play with are very forgiving when it comes to GW not releasing minis. From TWC to the SR. We've been using Valk's as SR for the moment.

[Justicar Valius]

I think that Sang priests only affect BA squads (not allied GK). Possibly it says friendly but I think it says BA....

[Valerian]

I think that Sang priests only affect BA squads (not allied GK). Possibly it says friendly but I think it says BA....

 

It says all friendly units within 6".

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Where as Asteroth effects Friend and Foe with his Red Thirst change! :D

 

I'm thinking of (not even bothered to look at the points yet);

 

HQ: Asteroth

Elite: 3xSP

Elite: GKT

Troop: PAGK

Troop: PAGK

Troop: 5 x DC

Troop: 5 x DC

Troop: DC Dread

Troop: DC Dread

Heavy: SR

Heavy: SR

Heavy: SR

 

Maybe a Libby Dread. Maybe a Scout Squad for Home objectives. Who knows.

 

Main idea is to get a SP with each GK Squad, and stick them in Storm Ravens (with a Dread).

 

:)

[Valerian]

Anything with Locator Beacons (Scouts, Drop Pods, Stormravens) would also allow your Teleporting GKTs or FAGK to come in safely and right on target (aka "fun with Incinerators").

 

V

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Death Company Dreadnoughts are cool, and Blood Talons are also very attractive, but you have to take the 10 DC to get them, and that is a problem for me. With Rage the DC can't be controlled, even with a Chaplain. Even with all of their good capabilities this is a huge drawback for me, and doesn't really fit well with a Grey Knight/Exorcist theme. I'de rather go for the two Furiosos. Regular Furiosos are the same price, whereas Librarian Furiosos will cost you an extra 50 points each. By cutting out the more expensive Death Company you will get some of these points back.

 

Yeah, if you look back to the first post, I've edited it now to have Furioso Dreads in Elite. Librarian Dreadnoughts are nice, but I just couldn't spare the points. Anyway, the Storm Ravens make up for no 'Wings' and the blood talons make them insane in close-combat.

 

I

'd definitely keep a Sanguinary Priest with the GKTs, as it'll make them very capable. Adding the Librarian to the unit, too, however might be overkill for a single "Death Star" unit. I'd recommend spreading the love a bit and use him to attach to and support a seperate unit (maybe one of the PAGK squads in a different Stormraven).

 

I don't think so. Even with WS5, those re-rolls to hit do come in handy a lot, especially for the GM (who need to inflict that crucial wound in order to insta-fry a big monster or character). Plus the 'Sanguine Sword' is very handy for killing multi-wound units like Ogryns, Tyranid Warriors, Nobz etc that will weather NFW. It also is great for popping Dreadnoughts before they can mush up the GKT's. 'Hammerhand' is more a backup power, I've actually considered dropping it for 'Sacred Incense' (because Chaos armies are pretty common in my area and it would be nice).

 

Yes, the Sanguinary Priest has the 6" bubble which grants Feel No Pain and Furious Charge, but there is no guarantee that your two Assault Squads will always, or even ever, be anywhere near each other. What if the objectives they need to take from enemy control are spread apart? I'd find the extra 65 points (Sanguinary Priest plus Power Weapon) to get the third SP.

 

What should I down-size to afford him? I could drop a Knight from each squad (thus giving me the 50pts I need for another Priest). Or I could downgrade the Libby.

 

The Blood Talons are nice, and the S6 Force Weapon won't be able to make up for that, but the Furioso Librarian still has its S10 Blood Fist (DCCW) too. Also, they get two Psychic Powers. Don't think about what they'll necessarily do own their own, but think about how all of your units will work together/support each other. DC Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons will shred enemy units if they can get to them. Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts can disrupt, block, and destroy units over time, as all of your other units (GKTs, PAGKs, and Assault Squads) can shred pretty well in close combat anyway. I think the Assault Squads can take the place of/fill the same role that IST squads fill in many Daemonhunter lists.

 

That is nice. I'd need to drop Knights to afford those upgrades though. Which isn't really attractive, because I need them at full size to counteract the loss of hitting power that the incinerator dudes inflict (cos they lose their +1A and S6).

 

Anything with Locator Beacons (Scouts, Drop Pods, Stormravens) would also allow your Teleporting GKTs or FAGK to come in safely and right on target (aka "fun with Incinerators").

 

If you're buying PAGK anywhere but Troops you are doing it wrong. They already cos a huge amount for what they do (granted they're worth it), the least you can do is spare Troops slots so they can at least score. Anyway, the Storm Ravens let me put them with pinpoint accuracy where I want them, plus they can assault on the turn they disembark (which is crucial to destroying the enemy before they can whittle down my low bodycount further).

 

 

I'm pretty happy with the final list I've got now. I've got a primary Deathstar that can kill pretty much anything else (except those damn Stormhammer squads, and Bloodcrushers will also eat them handily), two hammer/scoring units that can kill most enemy Troops and even Elites pretty handily. Two fast moving assault squads for taking objectives and killing armour. Two walkers dropping in to support the hammer/scoring units by eating big infantry units they can't handle. And my three fast mini-Thunderhawks blowing up transports and dropping plasma cannon onto enemy units. And it's not too bad for the bodycount either, nearly 40 power-armoured models.

[Gentlemanloser]

I didn't catch that SR could have Locator Beacons! ;)

 

I'm actually now considering changing Astroth for a 'nilla Libby to get that nice reroll for a GKT Squad. Choices choices! <_<

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I didn't catch that SR could have Locator Beacons!

 

I'm actually now considering changing Astroth for a 'nilla Libby to get that nice reroll for a GKT Squad. Choices choices!

 

Yeah it's pretty good. You can't use the beacon on the SR, but for Deepstriking Raiders it's hilarious.

 

Blood Angel Librarians are insane, especially when combined with a sledgehammer like GKT's. Tack on a Sang Priest and you're going roll 90% of enemy assault units and monsters. Especially when taken with a Grandmaster, cos he beats everyone with his 'what Eternal Warrior?' force weapon.

[Valerian]

Death Company Dreadnoughts are cool, and Blood Talons are also very attractive, but you have to take the 10 DC to get them, and that is a problem for me. With Rage the DC can't be controlled, even with a Chaplain. Even with all of their good capabilities this is a huge drawback for me, and doesn't really fit well with a Grey Knight/Exorcist theme. I'de rather go for the two Furiosos. Regular Furiosos are the same price, whereas Librarian Furiosos will cost you an extra 50 points each. By cutting out the more expensive Death Company you will get some of these points back.

 

Yeah, if you look back to the first post, I've edited it now to have Furioso Dreads in Elite. Librarian Dreadnoughts are nice, but I just couldn't spare the points. Anyway, the Storm Ravens make up for no 'Wings' and the blood talons make them insane in close-combat.

 

Ah, I hadn't been going back up to the first post to look at your changes/updates. I think you've made a good choice, however, going with standard Furioso Dreads in Elite and arming them with Blood Talons, and deploying them via the Stormravens.

 

I'd definitely keep a Sanguinary Priest with the GKTs, as it'll make them very capable. Adding the Librarian to the unit, too, however might be overkill for a single "Death Star" unit. I'd recommend spreading the love a bit and use him to attach to and support a seperate unit (maybe one of the PAGK squads in a different Stormraven).

 

I don't think so. Even with WS5, those re-rolls to hit do come in handy a lot, especially for the GM (who need to inflict that crucial wound in order to insta-fry a big monster or character). Plus the 'Sanguine Sword' is very handy for killing multi-wound units like Ogryns, Tyranid Warriors, Nobz etc that will weather NFW. It also is great for popping Dreadnoughts before they can mush up the GKT's. 'Hammerhand' is more a backup power, I've actually considered dropping it for 'Sacred Incense' (because Chaos armies are pretty common in my area and it would be nice).

 

Go with what makes you comfortable, of course, but I'd still go the other route. Consider the point that it is almost always a bad thing to completely wipe-out an enemy unit in the same phase that you Assault it, because you then leave yourself open to any/all enemy firepower during their following Shooting phase. It is usually preferred to do a lot a damage to them when you Assault, then to finish them off during theirAssault phase, thus leaving you free to once again Move, Shoot, then Assault a new unit during your own next turn.

 

If you agree with me that this idea is a good one, then think about how close combat damage your GKT unit is going to put out on your enemy. Leaving your Grand Master and Retinue as you have built them, and attaching a Sanguinary Priest in TDA with a Storm Bolter and Power Weapon (with Blood Chalice), means that you'll start your attack against the enemy unit with a nice blast of S6 Incinerator and 10 Bolter shots (from the 5 Storm Bolters). Your Grey Knights will then charge into an assault with Furious Charge with everyone attacking at Initiative 5 (6 for the Grand Master) meaning they'll go first against 95% or more potential adversaries. They will then get (if my count is correct) about 16 Nemesis Force Weapon attacks at Strength 7, and 3 additional Power Weapon attacks at Strength 5. Because everyone is Weapon Skill 5, 2 of every 3 attacks will successfully hit, and anything but rolls of a 1 will wound, allowing only Invulnerable Saves.

 

With this level of capability (not even taking into account the Grand Master's Force Weapon potential), this unit could very easily wipe out a full Tactical Marine Squad, Terminator Squad, or even a Nob Biker Squad in a single turn.

 

My personal opinion is that the addition of the Librarian to this unit is overkill, makes them too effective, and will therefore in turn make them vulnerable in the enemy's shooting in the following turn. Where that Librarian can really contribute, however, is by attaching to any of your Troops units (either the Assault Squads or the PAGK Squads) who don't have that same high level of close combat capability, to make them a more formidable force.

 

Yes, the Sanguinary Priest has the 6" bubble which grants Feel No Pain and Furious Charge, but there is no guarantee that your two Assault Squads will always, or even ever, be anywhere near each other. What if the objectives they need to take from enemy control are spread apart? I'd find the extra 65 points (Sanguinary Priest plus Power Weapon) to get the third SP.

 

What should I down-size to afford him? I could drop a Knight from each squad (thus giving me the 50pts I need for another Priest). Or I could downgrade the Libby.

 

Yes, just drop a couple guys out of your PAGK squads (not a huge impact by the loss) to get that extra Priest. What you lose by dropping a couple regular guys will be more than than made up for by gaining FNP for the unit (and Furious Charge is a bonus).

 

The Blood Talons are nice, and the S6 Force Weapon won't be able to make up for that, but the Furioso Librarian still has its S10 Blood Fist (DCCW) too. Also, they get two Psychic Powers. Don't think about what they'll necessarily do own their own, but think about how all of your units will work together/support each other. DC Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons will shred enemy units if they can get to them. Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts can disrupt, block, and destroy units over time, as all of your other units (GKTs, PAGKs, and Assault Squads) can shred pretty well in close combat anyway. I think the Assault Squads can take the place of/fill the same role that IST squads fill in many Daemonhunter lists.

 

That is nice. I'd need to drop Knights to afford those upgrades though. Which isn't really attractive, because I need them at full size to counteract the loss of hitting power that the incinerator dudes inflict (cos they lose their +1A and S6).

 

You do lose a little close combat capability by adding Incinerators, but if you can get those Incinerators into position to take a shot, the 8" teardrop flamer template of S6 will more than make up for it (auto-hit, wounds almost everything on any roll but a 1, no Invulnerable Saves). The problem with the short-ranged Flamer/Incinerator has always been the unit mobility required to actually use it. Now that you have a transport option in the form of the Stormraven to drop your PAGK off on the doorstep of the enemy, the Incinerator becomes a much more attractive option than before when those units were footslogging across the board.

 

Anything with Locator Beacons (Scouts, Drop Pods, Stormravens) would also allow your Teleporting GKTs or FAGK to come in safely and right on target (aka "fun with Incinerators").

 

If you're buying PAGK anywhere but Troops you are doing it wrong. They already cost a huge amount for what they do (granted they're worth it), the least you can do is spare Troops slots so they can at least score. Anyway, the Storm Ravens let me put them with pinpoint accuracy where I want them, plus they can assault on the turn they disembark (which is crucial to destroying the enemy before they can whittle down my low bodycount further).

 

The Locator Beacon comment was more geared to Gentlemenloser than to you (he had mentioned the use of Scouts), and was more of a proposal for how to integrate the new Blood Angels with Grey Knights for those of us who are not going to be immediately including Stormravens into our lists. For example, I don't have any Valkyries or other suitable models for counts-as, and I'm not up to scratchbuilding my own, so for now I'm going to wait on adding them. In the meantime, however, I can use Locator Beacons for precision-targetting of my Deep Strikes.

 

I will agree with you that in most games using the standard mission parameters it is usually better to keep your PAGK as scoring Troops selections. However, for those that might play other non-standard missions and scenario-based games, having the ability to Deep Strike PAGK units in becomes much more useful. Having the ability to put them exactly where you want them with Locator Beacons makes them even more effective, when Scoring doesn't matter.

 

 

I'm pretty happy with the final list I've got now. I've got a primary Deathstar that can kill pretty much anything else (except those damn Stormhammer squads, and Bloodcrushers will also eat them handily), two hammer/scoring units that can kill most enemy Troops and even Elites pretty handily. Two fast moving assault squads for taking objectives and killing armour. Two walkers dropping in to support the hammer/scoring units by eating big infantry units they can't handle. And my three fast mini-Thunderhawks blowing up transports and dropping plasma cannon onto enemy units. And it's not too bad for the bodycount either, nearly 40 power-armoured models.

 

I'll go back up and review your revised list and see if I have any other recommendations. By Stormhammer squads, do you mean Assault Terminator Squads with primarily Storm Shields and Thunderhammers? If it is a unit of just 5 models you should kill all 5 in a single turn with average rolls (no guarantee, of course) when you Shoot and Assault (and that's leaving the Librarian out of the unit), with no losses in return to your own guys. It it is a larger unit of up to 10 models, then the 3 or 4 guys that survive your charge will give you some trouble when they get to attack back with their Thunderhammers.

 

Valerian

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Go with what makes you comfortable, of course, but I'd still go the other route. Consider the point that it is almost always a bad thing to completely wipe-out an enemy unit in the same phase that you Assault it, because you then leave yourself open to any/all enemy firepower during their following Shooting phase. It is usually preferred to do a lot a damage to them when you Assault, then to finish them off during theirAssault phase, thus leaving you free to once again Move, Shoot, then Assault a new unit during your own next turn.

 

The longer you're in combat, the longer they have to get powerfist wounds onto your guys, or drown you in armour saves (two very good ways of killing off small but deadly assault units). Given that the Deathstar is primarily concerned with killing other Deathstars and monsters, I want them hitting as hard as possible. They need to roll their chosen target in one assault phase, because if they don't, I'll start losing GKT's to return attacks (which will invariably ignore armour saves). Once the 4 ablative dudes are gone, the Grandmaster is easy to take down.

 

I'm quite happy to sacrifice my Deathstar, if I means I take out his. Think of it like chess (gross oversimplification). He has a queen. I have a queen. I need to get rid of his queen in order to set up a 2-move checkmate. My queen isn't neccessary for checkmate. So, I destroy his queen, lose mine, then kill off whatever killed my queen. Once the biggest and nastiest units are dead, it comes down to an infantry vs infantry battle, and my infantry are going to be superior in most circumstances (Chaos, Orks and Daemons are the only other armies with staple Troops that I will worry about).

 

I get what you mean, in terms of 'hiding in combat', but even without the Libby I doubt that will happen. Given that most enemy Deathstars have WS5 at least, ignore armour saves with multiple attacks and can survive power weapon themselves, I need as many wounds inflicted as possible. I'm not slamming the Grandmaster+friends into Tactical squads, I'm targeting Bloodthirsters, Nob Bikers, Stormhammers etc. I can only fry one Biker Nob, Carnifex, Hive Tyrant etc with the Grandmaster. The rest of the unit has to kill the Tyrant Guard, other Biker Nobz etc (hence my choice of 'Sanguine Sword' as a backup power, as it can kill tanks and multi-wound models).

 

The point of the list is to ram the Knights down the enemy's throat and annihilate their key heavy hitters early on. While they're frantically trying to bait or kill off the Knights, the Exorcists are rushing the objectives and slaughtering their Troops. The bonus is that if the power-armoured Knights actually survive, they can win the game for me too. Plus I'm dropping in Dreadnoughts to draw anti-tank off the Storm Ravens and eat big infantry units/monsters.

 

My personal opinion is that the addition of the Librarian to this unit is overkill, makes them too effective, and will therefore in turn make them vulnerable in the enemy's shooting in the following turn. Where that Librarian can really contribute, however, is by attaching to any of your Troops units (either the Assault Squads or the PAGK Squads) who don't have that same high level of close combat capability, to make them a more formidable force.

 

Unless the enemy is dropping plasma cannon, prism cannon or Demolisher cannon onto them, I should be ok. 2+ saves and 4+ FNP, plus they're Fearless. And the vehicles or units that pack high Strength AP2/1 weaponry will be priority one for the Storm Ravens and/or Reaper Dreads. Probably won't even launch the Deathstar until I'm happy such guns are silenced or doomed in combat.

 

Yes, just drop a couple guys out of your PAGK squads (not a huge impact by the loss) to get that extra Priest. What you lose by dropping a couple regular guys will be more than than made up for by gaining FNP for the unit (and Furious Charge is a bonus)

 

Yeah, I think I will now. It's only 2 attacks, and the Priest still has more S5 attacks on the charge anyway. I'll make those changes.

 

You do lose a little close combat capability by adding Incinerators, but if you can get those Incinerators into position to take a shot, the 8" teardrop flamer template of S6 will more than make up for it (auto-hit, wounds almost everything on any roll but a 1, no Invulnerable Saves). The problem with the short-ranged Flamer/Incinerator has always been the unit mobility required to actually use it. Now that you have a transport option in the form of the Stormraven to drop your PAGK off on the doorstep of the enemy, the Incinerator becomes a much more attractive option than before when those units were footslogging across the board.

 

Yeah, it's hard to describe the feeling of satisfaction when you Tank Shock a big horde unit with a Crusader, then disembark incinerators onto the conga line you've made of his guys. I've wiped out entire Chaos Space Marine squads, just with sheer wounds inflicted (the few that survived got swatted down by the squad when they charged them). And that was with Crusaders. Storm Raven can move them much faster, and even though they don't get frags they still get a Dreadnought as backup to draw the enemy out first.

 

I will agree with you that in most games using the standard mission parameters it is usually better to keep your PAGK as scoring Troops selections. However, for those that might play other non-standard missions and scenario-based games, having the ability to Deep Strike PAGK units in becomes much more useful. Having the ability to put them exactly where you want them with Locator Beacons makes them even more effective, when Scoring doesn't matter.

 

Yeah, I agree, it would be pretty in Planetstrike or some of the battle missions. I play a lot of normal games though, so my strategies are geared towards that.

 

I'll go back up and review your revised list and see if I have any other recommendations. By Stormhammer squads, do you mean Assault Terminator Squads with primarily Storm Shields and Thunderhammers? If it is a unit of just 5 models you should kill all 5 in a single turn with average rolls (no guarantee, of course) when you Shoot and Assault (and that's leaving the Librarian out of the unit), with no losses in return to your own guys. It it is a larger unit of up to 10 models, then the 3 or 4 guys that survive your charge will give you some trouble when they get to attack back with their Thunderhammers.

 

Yeah, thats the common term for them these days. I know on average my Deathstar will roll them, but I wouldn't wanna risk it. If I do face off against one, I might just use a regular Grey Knight squad (cos they'll cause a lot more wounds) or just bomb them with plasma cannon from the Storm Ravens. A 3+ invul is pretty sweet though, I've seen such squads do amazing things (test game at my store saw the Swarmlord get his butt handed to him, they still made most of their invul saves and even though Lysander died, the remaining dudes walloped the Nid to death).