Librarian Furiosos taking a Magna-Grapple

[DIKU]

I did a search on this question and nothing came up, so sorry if this has been covered somewhere already

 

so the wording under the furioso is as follows:

 

"Options:

[lists several options including the magna grapple upgrade]

Upgrade to a Furioso Librarian, exchanging all wargear for a blood fist (with built in storm bolter), smoke launchers, psychic hood and force weapon"

 

the way i see it, you replace all the furioso's standard wargear (two blood fists and smokes) with those above, but that there is nothing stating that you cannot further upgrade the libby dread with the options normally available to a standard furioso. However ive heard some that feel that furiosos upgraded in this way loose access to any further options.

 

i understand the basis for not allowing further upgrades is based on characters who take terminator armor, but in those entries you normally see "if terminator armor is not chosen, ...."

 

insight from the gurus would be most helpful before i start any epic modeling projects

[Mordekiem]

You have pretty much summed up the discussion. :lol:

 

In the end it is not clear.

 

I tend to lean towards the "go ahead and take it" camp because I don't feel the replace all wargear option disallows the other options. I also don't think a libby dread with a magna-grapple is that big of a deal. I really doubt that ultimately anyone will really care if you take one or not. If you plan on playing a tourny, ask the TO ahead of time.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I am of the opinion that you take things in the order they are presented, as such your magna grapple would be replaced alont with the other wargear.

[ShinyRhino]

I am of the opinion that you take things in the order they are presented, as such your magna grapple would be replaced alont with the other wargear.

 

I'm of a similar mind. It's just good list sense to take things in order, though there's no rulebook statement that supports or denies this.

[DIKU]

..... bummer.

 

i see the point, but i really want to hope. i was never a fan of dreads (they never seem to survive the attention they get), but this one just seemed to awesome too pass up and i already have a sweet pose thought out.

 

1)how long does it usually take for GW to release an FAQ on a new dex?

 

or

 

2)has anyone been to a tournament where this issue was raised and there was a ruling?

 

and again, thanks for the input guys

[thade]

This seems to me to fall under the same set of arguments that revolve around both Apothecaries and Company Champions and whether they can be given further upgrades. There the consensus seems to be "No" based on the fact that the model is actually changed to something with a different name (and it's own stat line), and all available upgrades for the unit specify "Veteran" which - in name - these two models are not.

 

It seems silly, but then again it seems equally silly to me that a Force Commander can't take any upgrade he wishes in the book. If the guy in charge walks into the armory and says "Hand me that missile launcher." who is going to stop him? Well, GW will..likely for "balance". <3

 

Though, maybe they think the Librarian in Dread armor is dangerous enough withOUT the magnagrapple :).

[Grey Mage]

I see no issue with it... until GW FAQs it I would talk with your local playgroup.

 

Example: I see no issue with a libby dread having extra armor.

[Brother_Dan'l]

I am of the opinion that you take things in the order they are presented, as such your magna grapple would be replaced alont with the other wargear.

Seriously? :ermm:

 

So no Heavy Flamer, Magna Grapple, Searchlight or Extra Armor just because they are listed before the Librarian upgrade? I'm sorry but that's about the silliest reasoning I've ever heard. Why on earth would they stop it from getting a Searchlight let alone any of the other upgrades? If you've got any sort of precedent for this sort of thing I'd love to hear it.

[DIKU]

I have to say that I agree with Brother_Dan'l and Grey Mage's reasoning based on the fact that GW is very clear that its rules are permissive (dictating only the things you can do, with everything else being assumed you can't). In this case, the unit entry allows the Furioso Dread to take certain upgrades. Therefore, until there is something clearly stating that the furioso is no longer allowed to take those upgrades as a result of being upgraded to a librarian, then its still permissible.

 

I would counter thade's argument that an upgraded model, such as a veteran, constitutes a different model type with its own options with the fact that several units in the BA codex (such as the Vanguard Veteran Squad) have sergeants that may still be upgraded with standard unit equipment.

 

I am also not inclined to buy the argument that the librarian's new equipment replaces the upgrades because it clearly states "wargear", which is a separate list of items within the unit entry.

 

but again, i can argue this with people I play until my face turns blue. I was just hoping someone here might have seen this brought up at a major tournament or GW event that could be used as a credible source until an FAQ is released

[Uncle Mel]

I see the options as seperate from the original wargear, so original wargear is replaced but options may still be taken.

[Spacefrisian]

I think peeps see to many ghosts here. It doesn't say you may take 1 option. It gives replace options and then a Upgrade option.

[Grey Mage]

I do find sollace in the fact that a libby cannot take the Blood Talons, simply because it does not have to Bloodfists to exchange for them.

[Mycroft Holmes]

I feel that if the wargear listing says

 

"exchange A, B, and C for X, Y, Z"

 

then you must have A, B, and C to exchange. If you've traded away your only B for some other piece of wargear then you don't have the prerequisites for the exchange (X,Y and Z.)

 

Mycroft

[Grey Mage]

Well yes, that part is pretty straightforward, what are you getting at?