Biker Command Squad Loadout

[gettothegone]

Mowglie,

 

Wound allocation abuse doesn't really kinda work the same way with one wound units.

 

For example.

 

I've caused 9 power weapon wounds to your unit of 5. How do you allocate those so you're abusing them.

 

If you cause 9 power weapon wounds to orcs, the tradeoff is that they do not die if they fail one of those wounds. You'd need to fail 2 consecutive wounds on the same unit to remove a Nob from the table which is why they're one of the best units Orcs can have. So you double up by putting those on bikers without Klaws, and it ENSURES the Klaws are alive when they need to fight.

 

In your command squad, you're doubling up wounds on people, and 1 failed wound = death so there's no real way to abuse the wounds and all you're left with is dumb luck. Except for your Apothacary, that poor bugger is salsa, so you could bleed off 1 wound using him at max but you can't guarantee anyone to be alive at the end of your round.

 

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I just think you can turf the extra wargear and use that elsewhere because of the single wound models.

 

If I'm missing how you abuse wound allocation please let me know, as I may just be missing something in general.

[mowglie]

If I'm missing how you abuse wound allocation please let me know, as I may just be missing something in general.

 

I agree it's much much much better with multi-wound models. Maybe I shouldn't call it "abuse" (particularly not in comparison to Nobz squads). Maybe I should call it "mildly tricksy wound allocation" ^^

 

But, let's say 10 power weapon wounds:-

 

Without the melta-bombs:-

 

2 wounds to Captain and Apothecary, 1 wound each to Librarian, Standard bearer, Thunder Hammer, 3 wounds to the two LC/SS guys. Three 3++ saves to make on your LC/SS guys, and you lose one for each one you fail = 24/81 chance of both surviving, 36/81 chance of one surviving, 21/36 chance of them both dying.

 

With the melta-bombs:-

 

2 wounds to Captain and Apothecary, 1 wound each to Librarian, Standard bearer, Thunder Hammer, 1 wound to the LC/SS/MB guy, 2 wounds to the LC/SS guy. (2 + 1) 3++ saves to make, and if you fail any of them you lose that particular guy = 24/81 chance of both surviving, 42/81 chance of one of them surviving. 15/81 chance of them both dying.

 

Or, using a different example (say 2 power weapon wounds and 7 normal wounds, or a plasma gun wound, a krak missile, and 7 bolter shots etc):-

 

Without the melta-bombs:-

 

2 normal wounds to Captain, 1 normal wound each to Librarian, Apothecary, Standard bearer, Thunder Hammer, 2 PW wounds and a normal wound to LC/SS guys.

 

With the melta-bombs:-

 

2 normal wounds to Captain, 1 normal wound each to Librarian, Apothecary, Standard bearer, Thunder Hammer, one normal wound to LC/SS/MB guy, 2 PW wounds to LC/SS guy.

 

See the difference? If you've got a mix of FNP-ignoring and non-FNP-ignoring wounds (and you very often do) to allocate, you can allocate as many of the FNP-ignoring wounds to a single guy to increase the chance the rest of the squad survives. And when you've only got like 25 models in your army, the difference between losing one and losing two is quite big!

 

For five points, I think it's worth it - and the bombs come in handy occasionally anyway.

[gettothegone]

The only issue I see is that you have to treat an ICs / Command Squad as separate entities in close combat *this doesn't happen with orcs unless you have an IC with this squad because biker squads are silly this way*, so your opponent can declare whats attacking what when the fight starts, where you declare your attacks v. said entire bike squad.

 

Which means you can't use your captain and librarian for wound allocation unless the wounds are applied to him directly, and vice versa. Whats worse is that if someone focus's all their attacks on wiping out your command squad, and ignores your librarian / captain *and this is a stretch cause they're hard to kill, and I'm 100% sure you're not going to run them into a giant pile of terminators with claws* you might be on a losing side of that fight.

 

Only Retinues would allow you to use wound allocation the way you're using it, and even with a retinue you wouldn't be able to assign the retinue's wounds to a Librarian.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I've been playing it.

[mowglie]

The only issue I see is that you have to treat an ICs / Command Squad as separate entities in close combat *this doesn't happen with orcs unless you have an IC with this squad because biker squads are silly this way*, so your opponent can declare whats attacking what when the fight starts, where you declare your attacks v. said entire bike squad.

 

Which means you can't use your captain and librarian for wound allocation unless the wounds are applied to him directly, and vice versa. Whats worse is that if someone focus's all their attacks on wiping out your command squad, and ignores your librarian / captain *and this is a stretch cause they're hard to kill, and I'm 100% sure you're not going to run them into a giant pile of terminators with claws* you might be on a losing side of that fight.

 

Only Retinues would allow you to use wound allocation the way you're using it, and even with a retinue you wouldn't be able to assign the retinue's wounds to a Librarian.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I've been playing it.

 

Ah-hah, of course you're right. Please remove the Captain and Librarian from consideration above in close combat (I don't have time to edit my post).

 

Regardless, it's the survival of the 4th and 5th members of the command squad that is affected by the melta-bombs. Especially vs mixed shooting.

[gettothegone]

Mixed shooting, you're totally 100% correct though :)

[Mnemonikk]

Captain with Bike, Combi-melta and Relic Blade.

Librarian with Bike, Null-zone, and Vortex of Doom.

 

Apothecary (wish I could give him at least a power weapon!)

1x Storm Shield, Meltagun, Thunderhammer

1x Storm Shield, Meltagun, Lightning Claw, Standard

1x Storm Shield, Meltagun, Lightning Claw, Melta-bombs*

1x Storm Shield, Meltagun, Lightning Claw

 

[...]

 

610 points including both characters.

Are you sure? I make that set-up 705... Pedantic comments aside though this is an excellent build imo :) Would personally take hellfire shells over the combi, tho ofc if I had 10 pts free it'd definately be on there! For sooo long I've wanted to do a libby biker conversion - been refusing to paint a specific model for that very reason in fact - and this has given me the little nudge I needed :)

 

Now all I gotta do is find the money to buy that ravenwing battle force & command squad box..... ;)

[mowglie]

Are you sure? I make that set-up 705... Pedantic comments aside though this is an excellent build imo :( Would personally take hellfire shells over the combi, tho ofc if I had 10 pts free it'd definately be on there! For sooo long I've wanted to do a libby biker conversion - been refusing to paint a specific model for that very reason in fact - and this has given me the little nudge I needed :blink:

 

Now all I gotta do is find the money to buy that ravenwing battle force & command squad box..... :cuss

 

Heh. On second reading, I make it 710... Probably a typo on my part, I'll go edit.

 

Should be 175 (Captain) + 135 (Librarian) + 400 (Command Squad)

[Ookami_81]

Four little questions on this squad, caused by Re-re-reading the loadout:

- Is the command squad allowed to re-roll hazardous terrain misses ? (like the captain ?)

- If an attack bike suffer a krak missile hit, does it insta-kill it ? (It has two HP because there are two marines on it, so... ?)

- What's the point of the standard ? It only boosts morale, and I don't think you need it when you've got a captain attached to it.

- Why on earth do you have same price for Lightning Claws and Power Weapons, since the first one is better ? Lose an attack vs re-roll for all wounds ? Basic mathammer shows clearly the winner against everything but very weak creatures. Plus you'll lose that attack if you have everything in the other hand except a pistol, so 99% of the time you lose it anyway.

 

Oh yeah, I get it: LC are ugly, power swords and ax are wonderful ! :)

If only you could give swords to your squad and tell they are "special good light swords" allowing fast strokes and therefore ... re-roll to wound ! :D

[gettothegone]

1. Captain Yes, Squad No, they don't have skilled rider and the HQ doesn't conferrer it.

 

2. Yes, STR8 is 2x its toughness of 4 (5 for wounds, 4 for determining double STR deaths), unfortunate I know :)

 

3. Standard is kinda pointless.

 

4. If you took power weapons and a bolter, without a shield, you'd be assaulting for 4 attacks. Once you take a lightning claw its a special weapon. The best you can get is base attacks +1 for assault unless you add a second lightning claw for the +1A bonus.

 

LC = 3 attacks on charge, get a shield

PW = 4 attacks on charge, no shield.

[mowglie]

Four little questions on this squad, caused by Re-re-reading the loadout:

- Is the command squad allowed to re-roll hazardous terrain misses ? (like the captain ?)

- If an attack bike suffer a krak missile hit, does it insta-kill it ? (It has two HP because there are two marines on it, so... ?)

- What's the point of the standard ? It only boosts morale, and I don't think you need it when you've got a captain attached to it.

- Why on earth do you have same price for Lightning Claws and Power Weapons, since the first one is better ? Lose an attack vs re-roll for all wounds ? Basic mathammer shows clearly the winner against everything but very weak creatures. Plus you'll lose that attack if you have everything in the other hand except a pistol, so 99% of the time you lose it anyway.

 

Oh yeah, I get it: LC are ugly, power swords and ax are wonderful ! :D

If only you could give swords to your squad and tell they are "special good light swords" allowing fast strokes and therefore ... re-roll to wound ! :P

 

I'll ignore 1) and 2) since they've already been answered.

 

3) Even with LD10 the standard isn't useless. LD10 still fails 1/12 of the time. The standard reduces that to what? 1/144? Besides, it's mostly there for the extra wound in resolution, and for wound allocation purposes.

 

Imagine you've just lost combat vs an enemy squad. You've been beaten by 4 wounds in resolution. Luckily your standard bearer made his invulnerable save(s) and is still alive (partly thanks to the extra resilience you got from having another "bucket" to allocate wounds to).

 

Without the standard (or Kantor/Lysander), you'd need 6 or less on 2D6. You've got a 58% chance of fleeing and probably sucking up extra wounds from ATSKNF + No retreat, almost certainly being wiped out in the process.

 

With the standard you need 7 or less on 2D6 with a reroll. Now you've only got a 17% chance of fleeing. Your squad gets an opportunity to strike back, and potentially tie up your opponents assault specialist for another turn.

 

Gets even better when you consider that the extra wound counts against your opponent if you *win* combat...

 

4) If you don't have a second close-combat weapon for the +1A, the lightning claw is always better. If you do have the 2nd weapon, then I respectfully disagree with your math-hammer. It depends on the number of attacks you start with, whether or not you assaulted, and the toughness of the thing you're hitting.

 

For a base 1A model assaulting something with WS&T4, a power sword and a lightning claw give exactly the same expected number of wounds. LC gets better if you start with more attacks, or are fighting a creature with higher WS/T. Power Sword gets better if you're fighting a creature with lower WS/T, or if you start with fewer attacks (e.g. if you don't get the assault).

 

Obviously, the advantage of the LC is that you're not then disadvantaged if you want to use something in your other hand. I don't agree with your assessment that that happens "99% of the time" though.

[Ookami_81]

4) If you don't have a second close-combat weapon for the +1A, the lightning claw is always better. If you do have the 2nd weapon, then I respectfully disagree with your math-hammer. It depends on the number of attacks you start with, whether or not you assaulted, and the toughness of the thing you're hitting.

 

For a base 1A model assaulting something with T4, a power sword and a lightning claw give exactly the same expected number of wounds. LC gets better if you start with more attacks, or are fighting a creature with higher T. Power Sword gets better if you're fighting a creature with lower T, or if you start with fewer attacks (e.g. if you don't get the assault).

 

Obviously, the advantage of the LC is that you're not then disadvantaged if you want to use something in your other hand. I don't agree with your assessment that that happens "99% of the time" though.

 

Giving the squad loadout possibilities, I think if you invest in a command squad on bike, you want it to be STRONG. So you'll not let them with a bolt pistol and naked. You'll go either with SS for resilience, or Meltaguns/Plasma etc., for shooting, or both for a über unit. Therefore you lose the attack given by the PW.

 

For the standard, you convinced me, I'll take one ! I decided to make it in a long triangular shape attached to a larger than usual pole on the bike.

[mowglie]

Giving the squad loadout possibilities, I think if you invest in a command squad on bike, you want it to be STRONG. So you'll not let them with a bolt pistol and naked. You'll go either with SS for resilience, or Meltaguns/Plasma etc., for shooting, or both for a über unit. Therefore you lose the attack given by the PW.

 

Oh, you mean just for the bike command squad rather than in general?

 

Yeah. I think I agree there. Maybe not "99%" of the time, but certainly at least 75% of the time you'll already have replaced your bolt pistol with a special weapon, or taken a storm shield.

 

And if you've done one of those, there's no situation where the power sword is better.

[Koremu]

And if you've done one of those, there's no situation where the power sword is better.

If it's on a guy who has WS5, and therefore hits MEQ on 3+ not 4+

[Ookami_81]

If it's on a guy who has WS5, and therefore hits MEQ on 3+ not 4+

 

You're right, but the problem with the champion is its shield:

It's a good one because it gives you A +1.

It's a bad one because it gives a 5++ save, not a 3++ one.

It's a bad one because you can't have an additional meltagun.

It's a good one because he has a PW + CS + WS5 for only a few points.

 

So I don't know the best fine tuning between having a champion or a regular SS/LC + MG vet.

It seems to me it'll deprive the unit of some of its shooting punch, make it less resilient, but giving it a little more punch in CC.

 

I tend to think that it may be a good plan if you give the unit to Khan, because you'll rapid fire and charge your target, having the furious charge bonus. But if you have a regular HR RB captain, I don't know if it's in your interest to charge rather than kiting your target and fire from a more secure range.

 

What do you think about that ?

 

Oh, and if I take into account the fun factor, the champ is just too much cool for me not to get it ! :) A pity he can't be a chapter champion with A +1 and a relic blade ! (Why on earth the master's retinues can't have bikes ???)

[Mnemonikk]

Why on earth the master's retinues can't have bikes ???)

... or jump packs for that matter ^_^

[mowglie]

And if you've done one of those, there's no situation where the power sword is better.

If it's on a guy who has WS5, and therefore hits MEQ on 3+ not 4+

 

I stand by my comments. If you've already given up your bonus attack (e.g. by swapping your bolt pistol for a special weapon, or by taking a storm shield), the power weapon is never better than the lightning claw. Even on a WS5 guy.

 

Although bear in mind that statement isn't particularly relevant to the bike command squad, since you can't customise your champion anyway...

[Koremu]

And if you've done one of those, there's no situation where the power sword is better.

If it's on a guy who has WS5, and therefore hits MEQ on 3+ not 4+

 

I stand by my comments. If you've already given up your bonus attack (e.g. by swapping your bolt pistol for a special weapon, or by taking a storm shield), the power weapon is never better than the lightning claw. Even on a WS5 guy.

 

Although bear in mind that statement isn't particularly relevant to the bike command squad, since you can't customise your champion anyway...

The Champion does have an additional CCW for an off hand attack though, and giving every member of the Command Squad identical weaponry is folly because of the "risk" factor - every wound kills an upgraded model.

 

I stand by my point - that as a 15 point upgrade, the Company Champion is better than a Lightning Claw.

[mowglie]

I still stand by my point. On any model which doesn't gain a bonus attack for having two CCW (either because it doesn't have a 2nd CCW, or because it is already prohibited from gaining it due to e.g. a Storm Shield), a Power Weapon is never a better choice than a Lightning Claw.

 

I stand by my point - that as a 15 point upgrade, the Company Champion is better than a Lightning Claw.

 

Now that is a more interesting point. A Company Champion is much better than a regular chump with just a Lightning Claw in most situations (although, curiously not on the assault against T5 creatures e.g. other bikers). The Champion's major drawback is that you can't then upgrade him further. That means potentially less firepower and less resilience.

 

If you're going for a cheap bike command squad, I agree he's probably the way to go.

 

If you're going the tricked-out way, I think you'll prefer to take a more expensive upgraded veteran.

 

So, when it comes to bike command squads, is cheap or expensive better?

 

Obviously, the list I proposed on page 1 (and the other very similar one) are probably at the extreme end of "expensive". Other than the OP's list (which I think comes somewhere in the middle), have we seen any more examples of more lightweight builds to consider?

[Ookami_81]

So, when it comes to bike command squads, is cheap or expensive better?

 

It depends ! :rolleyes:

 

In an all comer list I would think a cheaper one (not cheap) is better. In a more themed and/or when you know you'll encounter violent CC units from Chaos or Orks, mayber it's worth the points to have a very powerful and costly squad.

 

In the Holy Killhammer Strategy it is written you need a Big K unit, a unit that kills, not sweep, not clean, Kill. It could be Assault Termies, Vanguards, or this command squad on bike. For fluffy reason I choose this one.

 

The big question is: When is a unit strong enough to be declared the K unit of your army ? My guess: when it's stronger than every other unit on the battlefield, yours and your foes'... at a cost that doesn't hamper too much on everything else... ^_^

 

Maybe there's also a difference to be made wether the unit is with Khan or with a regular captain... ?

[gettothegone]

Cheap / Expensive....

 

 

It comes down to versatility.

 

In the case of a command squad, you get what you pay for in every way. A 540pt command squad will take an excessive amount incoming damage, and shrug most of it off, this includes vindicator shells, orbital bombardments, lasgun spam, bolter fire, assault squads, flamers. Its surprisingly difficult to kill with pie plate spam. It will also be able to shred units, bust tanks, play beer pong, and recite pi to the 38th digit.

 

But:

 

Take off the melta, and you need to assault tanks and the captain becomes one of the only ways to break it open.

 

Leave off the shields, and you need to move 24" each turn to make them as durable, and your captain becomes the only sitting 3+.

 

Replace the claws with swords, and you get an extra attack, but no reroll on your wounds, and your captain becomes the only heavy wound maker.

 

Replace the swords with plasma, and you lose the attack, but can move and shoot 24" of plasma death, and rapid fire 12" of plasma hellfire, and you make your captain an afterthought.

 

Replace the plasma with CCWs and you have a cheap but effective delivery system for a captain.. who also is the only thing that can cause significant damage to 2+ units, or units with FNP...

 

The more you start to shred away, the more the captain changes in his role. At this point, its best to throw him into a unit of bikes.

[mowglie]

The more you start to shred away, the more the captain changes in his role. At this point, its best to throw him into a unit of bikes.

 

That was my thought. If you're going to take a 205pt command squad, I'd prefer to take just a normal bike squad. Lose FNP, gain scoring and probably some more bodies.

[Ookami_81]

Maybe in being reasonable enough you can have a perfectly balanced unit between high cost and efficency.

Say:

- Captain, Relic Blade, Hellfire rounds

- Champion

- Apothecary

- Vet SS/TH/Standard/Meltagun

- Vet SS/LC/Meltagun *2

 

Champion is selected for its cost efficency. Apothecary... FNP and he's required ;) . The rest of the guys are here to boost anti-tank fire and CC ass whoopin'.

 

You've got 3 SS, and that's enough to suck many heavy weapons' wounds.

You've got 3 Meltaguns and it's statistically enough to tear open a tank, even a big one... Oh, and inta kill footslogging nobz. ^_^

You've got a TH to stun surviving MCs, and Tanks.

You've got a standard to help your unit in tough combats.

You've got a cheaper unit than the one posted on page 1.

 

What do you think of it ?

[mowglie]

Maybe in being reasonable enough you can have a perfectly balanced unit between high cost and efficency.

Say:

- Captain, Relic Blade, Hellfire rounds

- Champion

- Apothecary

- Vet SS/TH/Standard/Meltagun

- Vet SS/LC/Meltagun *2

 

What do you think of it ?

 

Never sure whether to include the character(s) in a comparison. Let's not for the sake of argument. Your captain is similar enough, and my Librarian is clearly "extra":-

 

The build is cheaper, but only 30 points cheaper. What you're losing is fairly insignificant (1 melta, swapping a LC for a WS5 PS, 2 points off an invuln save), but so is what you're gaining.

 

I don't think 30 points is enough of a payoff. If you stripped off 50 points, say, you could field 2+2 attack bikes instead of 3+0, but are you really going to achieve much with only 30? (35 if you include the captain)

 

Obviously if you need to scrimp and save, the champion is a pretty effective way of doing that. Obviously if you have points left over, you can trick out a bit more. For such a small difference, it's going to depend heavily on what you do with the rest of your list, and how many points you have in the first place. And that's probably going off-topic.

 

One thing though: I'd give the standard to one of the LC guys instead of the TH guy for wound allocation purposes.

 

Anyone have any builds they like in the 250-300 point range?

[Ookami_81]

You're right for the standard on one of the LC vets.

 

My points range for this unit is 2000-2500 pts.

 

In the rest of the army you've got 2 LS Typhoons, 3 MM or HB Assault-bikes, 10 Assault Marines with chaplain, A regular full bike squad and AB with MM, two 10 tacticals with Rhino, on Whirlwind and one Vindicator IIRC (not sure for the firebase, It could be Vindic + 10 deva), maybe some sterns also.

 

It's an fast army made to defeat slower mecha and/or mass foot infantry and/or MCs with bug swarms. In fact it's aimed to be an all comer list (shouldn't all marines armies be like that, taking into account that they have to fight everything anytime ?), but with a little orientation towards mech-lists like KoS for instance.

 

30 pts, it could be a TH elsewhere, or a Pfist and a Melta bomb... That could be many things...

[gettothegone]

It's an fast army made to defeat slower mecha

 

MOAR MELTA, MOAR SPEED