Multi meltas or Missles?

[Necronpheliac]

im trying to decide how to too up my DIY. Fluff wise my army doesnt care too much for very long ranges. I was thinking of tooling most units with varying combos of flamer,melta, and muli melta for the heavy. Is it completely foolish to forgo the missle lauchers duality of fraggy and kracky goodness? What are you're thoughts?

[spartan249]

I don't think so. If you have flamers, chances are that you'll never need frag shots. They're not usually very useful, and I end up using Krak missiles 90% of the time.

[Xeonic]

I personally dislike the range of the multi-melta, you need to be within 12" to be truely effective, outside of which it's no better than the missile launcher. On the other hand the range meshes with bolters well if you're shooting infantry, but if you're shooting infantry why are you taking a multi melta?

 

The infantry carried multi-melta IMO is an area denial weapon, rather than a truely effective anti-tank weapon, infantry mounted it's not very effective since the range is only 24" vs the 48" range of say, a las or missile launcher. Within 12" it's really deadly but it has zero mobility, and outside of that range it's only as effective as a missile launcher(which is also free). Anyways, if your tac squad is stationary within 12" of a non AV14 armored target, move up 6", fire your meltagun and assault with krak grenades and a meltabomb. Bam, dead armored vehicle.

 

I've used them in the past, but rarely found them useful over a missile launcher or lascannon for the reasons I've stated. The one exception is when facing AV14, and even there, a more mobile multi-melta does the job a lot better. I suppose you should use them if you're using vulkan because it's the only weapon that he effects.

 

Realistically speaking you'll need a number of ranged antitank that's not meltaguns anyways, so you may as well take missile launchers, or failing that, heavy bolters or plasma cannon. Now the plasma cannon is truely an effective anti infantry weapon when wielded by tactical marines which really ought to not be wasting all those bolters shooting armor most of the time anyways.

 

Now, vehicle or attack bike mounted multi-melta are truely fearsome antitank.

[tahrikmili]

A MM is AP1 so it's significantly better than a Krack missile. It's a great area denial weapon for Rhino mounted tacticals holding ground or objectives.

[Xeonic]

I realize that, but my point was that I've rarely(can't think of an occasion, actually) had a single infantry(EDIT: tactical squad) carried multi-melta save my bacon where a missile launcher wouldn't have with a krak missile.

 

I could see multiples in a devestator squad being effective, but as I said unless that target is a raider I'd rather just take it out with a meltagun and krak granades.

 

EDIT: Combat squadding a couple off and leaving them behind sounds like a valid tactic, if you wanted to do a razorspam list. I like my tactical squads at 10 men so they don't get munched easy personally.

The problem for me is that I have to have a 10 man squad stand still for a turn to shoot a heavy weapon with a short range, at a target that most likely 8 of the other men can't touch.

[Frosty the Pyro]

the superior range means you will likely get more out of the missile launcher than out of the melta

[Grey Mage]

I prefer missile launchers... and frankly, they arent "long range".

 

Basilisks are long range. Nothing in the SM armory save the Conversion Beamer and perhaps the TFC count.

[Brother Captain Josef]

I run my tacs as anti infantry and they are loaded out as such. There are better mounts for the multimelta esp bikes (low profile) and Landspeeders (high mobility)

 

However if you wanna field MMeltas on tacs go for it! It seems like you wanting to get up in your enemy's face either way and they are a great Ironclad drop pod alpha strike deterrent...

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

If your army is close quarters orienated, then they should have Rhinoes. With Rhinoes the Meltagun's range is increased tp 26", and melta range increased to 20" Better than the Multi-Melta. And I'd use a Missle Launcher any time. If you want Multi-Meltas then put them on a Land Raider with a remove jump packs Assault Squad or Command Squad with Melta Bombs in it.

[Brother Captain Josef]

If your army is close quarters orienated, then they should have Rhinoes. With Rhinoes the Meltagun's range is increased tp 26", and melta range increased to 20" Better than the Multi-Melta. And I'd use a Missle Launcher any time. If you want Multi-Meltas then put them on a Land Raider with a remove jump packs Assault Squad or Command Squad with Melta Bombs in it.

 

Not sure how you figure that. A Rhino can move 6" and the occupants may still fire rapid fire (up to 12") or assault weapons only (no heavies - have to be stationary). The meltagun has a range of 12" so 6" + 12" = 18" range and melta special rule of 6" + 6" = 12" but yes I take your point there Isaac - The meltagun's special range is that of a stationary multimelta.

[Jackelope King]

It's not the Melta rule that's so critical on multimeltas and meltaguns. It's the AP1. It lets you kill an enemy tank 50% of the time on a pen, and even lets you kill on a glance. That's where the money's at. In my Tactical squads, a multimelta allows them to hold mid-board with a big 24" radius bubble that gives enemy vehicles pause.

 

Of course, Missile Launchers ain't bad either, but those you really need to spam in huge numbers to be really effective. Space Wolves wind up doing it pretty well, thanks to Cyclone missile launchers in troops units and Dev-equivalents (Long Fangs) which don't stink.

[rat of vengence]

If your army is close quarters orienated, then they should have Rhinoes. With Rhinoes the Meltagun's range is increased tp 26", and melta range increased to 20" Better than the Multi-Melta. And I'd use a Missle Launcher any time. If you want Multi-Meltas then put them on a Land Raider with a remove jump packs Assault Squad or Command Squad with Melta Bombs in it.

 

Not sure how you figure that. A Rhino can move 6" and the occupants may still fire rapid fire (up to 12") or assault weapons only (no heavies - have to be stationary). The meltagun has a range of 12" so 6" + 12" = 18" range and melta special rule of 6" + 6" = 12" but yes I take your point there Isaac - The meltagun's special range is that of a stationary multimelta.

I think he is thinking 12" move, 2" disembark and 12" meltagun rnage. Not sure about the rest...

 

I run a tac squad with the free multimelta. It is area denial, and those times you really need to dish a wound on something it is pretty good. Except mine always misses. :P

 

RoV

[DarkGuard]

I run all my missile launchers in my Dev squad, so at the moment the two weapon choices I have for my Tactical Squads are heavy bolters and multi-meltas. Considering they're mounted in Rhinos I tend to be moving them, and so never expect to fire that free heavy weapon, so it doesn't matter too much for me. I favour the multi-melta at the moment as my LGS is very much a power armour zone, and the multi-meltas perform at the same range as my plasma guns and bolters. Plus it's a brilliant area denial weapon and great for those shots of opportunity you might get on tanks. In the end it's a free weapon and if you're moving your Tacticals I feel you should be more worried about your special weapons. Yes it adds some Tactical flexibility, but one missile launcher will not do much, which is why I prefer the multi-multi or the heavy bolter, much more likely to do something against their given target.

[waaanial00]

Recently I read a thread which was discussing Multimeltas and it sparked my interest. Cant remember exactly where or what it said but the overall suggestion is to pair plasma weapons with the Multi melta.

 

Essentially you get a squad that looks like the following:

 

Full Tactical - 235

Rhino, Multi Melta, Plasma Gun, Plasma Pistol

 

Obviously not for the faint hearted and probably not everyones cup of tea either but still it caught my eye and I have tried it in one game so far (many more this weekend and possibly one tonight). The idea of this is to dump said unit somewhere and challenge light tanks and high armoured foes with the 3 S7 attacks and 1 S8 AP1 Melta attacks between 0 - 12" range and 1 S7 and 1 S8 AP1 attack between 12 - 24".

 

At the moment and on paper it feels a bit clunky but against alpha strike units this little combination could just be an ace in the hole. Imagine that termicide unit encountering this or even an Ironclad dropping close. Even a Rhino rush can benefit from this if positioned properly and if not, who cares? The few times I have even bothered shooting my missile launcher has made me think more than once about dumping it. I dont because it is quite useful in certain circumstances, well in some circumstances and especially when you engage the defensive portion of the game a Multi Melta has great potential in helping you dombinate a small 24" pocket of the battlefield.

 

Still its not for everyone, if it was I wouldnt be testing it. Still I like to be the odd ball as it makes me much harder to beat.

 

Wan

[Brother Captain Josef]

If your army is close quarters orienated, then they should have Rhinoes. With Rhinoes the Meltagun's range is increased tp 26", and melta range increased to 20" Better than the Multi-Melta. And I'd use a Missle Launcher any time. If you want Multi-Meltas then put them on a Land Raider with a remove jump packs Assault Squad or Command Squad with Melta Bombs in it.

 

Not sure how you figure that. A Rhino can move 6" and the occupants may still fire rapid fire (up to 12") or assault weapons only (no heavies - have to be stationary). The meltagun has a range of 12" so 6" + 12" = 18" range and melta special rule of 6" + 6" = 12" but yes I take your point there Isaac - The meltagun's special range is that of a stationary multimelta.

I think he is thinking 12" move, 2" disembark and 12" meltagun rnage. Not sure about the rest...

 

I run a tac squad with the free multimelta. It is area denial, and those times you really need to dish a wound on something it is pretty good. Except mine always misses. :P

 

RoV

 

Ahh yes I understand now! Does throw you a bit though when a squad in a rhino can move 12", jump out 2" and still fire where as a rhino that moves 12" no-one can fire from?!?!

[minigun762]

From the Chaos perspective, Tac squads are only useful with 24". Hanging back to blast with 1 weapon is a waste for 10 guys and barely ok for 5. Since you're probably in a Rhino/Drop Pod anyway, why not take the Multi-Melta and benefit from the AP1?

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I try to keep melta weapons out of my tac squads hands. 6-12" is plain useless. I'll take the missiles and mount the melta elsewhere like bikes, speeders or dreads.

 

if your taking melta as an area denial means then your just going to get shot to bits anyway. "oh hey im not going near that meltagun, ok I'll just stay here safe and shoot at it instead"

[tahrikmili]

Recently I read a thread which was discussing Multimeltas and it sparked my interest. Cant remember exactly where or what it said but the overall suggestion is to pair plasma weapons with the Multi melta.

 

Essentially you get a squad that looks like the following:

 

Full Tactical - 235

Rhino, Multi Melta, Plasma Gun, Plasma Pistol

 

Obviously not for the faint hearted and probably not everyones cup of tea either but still it caught my eye and I have tried it in one game so far (many more this weekend and possibly one tonight). The idea of this is to dump said unit somewhere and challenge light tanks and high armoured foes with the 3 S7 attacks and 1 S8 AP1 Melta attacks between 0 - 12" range and 1 S7 and 1 S8 AP1 attack between 12 - 24".

 

At the moment and on paper it feels a bit clunky but against alpha strike units this little combination could just be an ace in the hole. Imagine that termicide unit encountering this or even an Ironclad dropping close. Even a Rhino rush can benefit from this if positioned properly and if not, who cares? The few times I have even bothered shooting my missile launcher has made me think more than once about dumping it. I dont because it is quite useful in certain circumstances, well in some circumstances and especially when you engage the defensive portion of the game a Multi Melta has great potential in helping you dombinate a small 24" pocket of the battlefield.

 

Still its not for everyone, if it was I wouldnt be testing it. Still I like to be the odd ball as it makes me much harder to beat.

 

Wan

 

You probably read this from me, as I run the exact same setup but with a Power Fist instead of a Plasma Pistol. It's an incredibly effective objective holder.

[Giga]

I prefer the missile launcher for my aggressive tac squad(s), and the plasma cannon for my objective-camping squad.

 

The missile launcher is nice for those times when I'm fighting a close-combat opponent like nids or khorne CSM. In those fights I usually get to shoot the missile launcher during turn 1, 2, and sometimes even turn 3, while the enemy is advancing on me. Krak missiles are also extremely nice in that they can insta-kill things like tyranid warriors, nobz, etc. from turn 1.

 

Frag missiles are also useful if you're facing a mass of cheap infantry.

 

The multimelta is pretty pointless really. To get it into a position to do anything you have to move. If you move, you can't shoot it. It's really just area denial, and then who cares. If you pop someone's transport while he's within 12" from your tac squad, that means he can still rapid fire/assault you in the following turn, meaning his transport has done its job already. The other vehicles, like predators, leman russes, etc. are all going to stay well out of range of an infantry-carried multimelta, anyway.

[Captain Idaho]

In tight games or KP battles, a Tactical squad or 2 can create a no-go area with a Multi-melta in the squad. It is free after all.

[Gothical]

I tend to run the following "flexible" Tactical Squad:

 

Sergeant - Bolt Pistol & Power Weapon. 9 Marines, Plasma Gun & Multi-Melta.

 

It nearly always has some sort of unit carrying Power Fists/Thunder Hammers in support, thus doesn't need one itself - and if said unit is unavailable for whatever reason, you can always use Combat Squads to fall back from that Dreadnought in the enemy turn and shoot it in the face in yours. 3 shots, one of which is AP1 that are quite likely to harm the Dreadnought in question.

 

The Plasma Gun retains the same "anti-infantry" purpose of a Bolt Gun in an emergency (it's just better, but risks blowing up), and if faced with Infantry/moving the Heavy trooper still has their Bolt Pistol. I like the Meltagun as I tend to rush up in a Rhino, jump out and rapid-fire, then hold ground with the Multi-Melta. Sure, it gets less shots-per-game, but a lot of people are wary of heading near to it. It's not too easy to kill either, unlike Land Speeders or Bikes, what with 9 ablative bodies and most likely cover-saves.

 

However I am pondering about replacing the Plasma Gun with a Meltagun.

 

waanial00 makes a strong case for the Plasma Gun - it's a threat to light vehicles and heavy Infantry/Monsters, particularly with 2 shots.

 

However the Meltagun has AP1 which possibly makes up for that second shot in terms of damage against vehicles, and can instant-kill tough T4 units (again, possibly making up for the lost shot).

 

Though the Meltagun can't harm an Avatar, which is the biggest risk of an all-Melta squad IMO.

 

I dunno (and apologies for hijacking the thread for a moment or two - though this may help the topic starter if they go down the route of Multi-Meltas over Missile Launchers), but what do people think is the best partner for a Multi-Melta - the Meltagun or Plasma Gun?

[minigun762]

but what do people think is the best partner for a Multi-Melta - the Meltagun or Plasma Gun?

 

Plasma definitely.

Its damn near impossible to use both the Meltagun and Multi-Melta on the same target but the Plasmagun works just fine with the Multi-Melta.

 

Besides just having the Multi-Melta gives you a good enough anti-tank weapon for a Tac Squad. If you really want a backup, I think a Power Fist would be better.

[Jackelope King]

I really don't like plasma in 5th edition. It's the red-headed stepchild of weapons in the Imperial armory. It has some value when spammed at very, very high points-value games. But when it comes to actual utility, it shines in basically one situation: shooting up power-armored armies on foot. The range is shorter than an autocannon, and in most cases, it's delivered on a more vulnerable platform than the autocannon. And when you get up close, meltaguns fry the same targets just as well (even better against Nid monstrous creatures), with the added bonus of instant death. When it comes to vehicles, there's just no comparison: better strength and better AP before you even look at the melta rule. Meltas wreck anything that has an armor value reliably. Plasma scratches the paint without the benefits of range and rate of fire that autocannons get. Add in the obscene price tag relative to other Marine special weapons, and I just can't justify using a plasma gun, even if I love the conversion I did for my plasma gunner.

 

Twin melta weapons in the same squad really gives opponents pause about sending armor in that direction, giving you a pretty strong hold mid-field when you send your Tacticals in. There's a 24" bubble of "back off", a 12" bubble of "stay the hell away" and a 6" bubble of "now you're just asking for it". That said, I have a lot more Tacticals with Flamers than I do with Meltaguns (thanks, AoBR), so I'll run a flamer/Multimelta squad every now and then too.

[tahrikmili]

People are ditching the Plasmagun too easily I'd say. Let's look at it this way:

 

(EDIT: My Calculations are assuming a 1+ to wound for S7 on T4.. Correct me if wrong!)

 

A Meltagun can't be fired at 12-24"

A Meltagun will hit with 66% possibility and Instantly kill a MEQ (MEQ for the purposes of this argument is Marine eq. in 3+ or 2+ armor).

 

A Plasmagun will shoot once at 24", Hit with 66% probability and wound with 100% probability, meaning it will kill with 66% probability.

A Plasmagun will shoot twice at 24", It will hit at least one target with 89% probability (1 - (1-0,33)^2) and wound at least one target with 100% probability meaning it will kill at least one MEQ with 89% probability - much better than a meltagun. Furthermore, it also has a 44% chance (0,66^2) of killing not one but two MEQ in the same turn, so it's essentially MUCH MUCH better.

 

So what do the two have on each other?

 

Meltagun: Melta weapon and AP1

Plasmagun: Better vs MEQ at 12", and can still reliably kill at 24". It's also much better at TEQ but I can't be bothered to type that one up (it's even better against TEQ, since more shots against armor save = more probability to wound.)

 

But considering you're going to pair it with a BETTER Melta weapon anyway, it's obvious to me that, for an area-denial / objective camper role the Plasmagun is a much better companion to the Multi Melta.

[Grey Mage]

From the Chaos perspective, Tac squads are only useful with 24". Hanging back to blast with 1 weapon is a waste for 10 guys and barely ok for 5. Since you're probably in a Rhino/Drop Pod anyway, why not take the Multi-Melta and benefit from the AP1?

See, and I think of that as a logical fallacy- if one missile launcher, lascannon, or autocannon blast stops an enemy tank or dread in its tracks and preserves your squad, or another squad, or helps you set up a good assault, then those points are far from "wasted".