Black Templars and Chaos

[Draeden]

As I'm sitting here, not painting my Necrons (too little time argh!), I'm always looking towards the future. Now, I find Black Templars and Renegade Inquisition starting to tug at my mind and a blessing of Great Change stands over my shoulder, beckoning me like that one crow that I wake to the voice of every morning, and my loyalty to the Betrayed Sons of Magnus faltering when looking at the Grand Pantheon!

 

My slim knowledge on Black Templars leads me to believe that aside from all their misguided zealotry, they're still the "Legion" closest to the original ideals of the Imperium. Uniting Mankind and destroying the xenos, mutant and heretic, and if I ever were to return to playing with Astartes, I'd be tempted to do two rivalling forces.

 

Imperial Fist Successors Black Templar Lineage - Vanguard of Terra (or maybe Black Templars based around a Capitol Ship known as the Vanguard of Terra)

 

And...

 

The Corsairs of Terror

 

The basic idea being that a sizeable Fighting Company/The Chapter pulled a Dark Angels and half went Renegade and the other half took about destroying their traitorous brethren. But aside from the story being rather common, I'm interested in knowing... how common or reasonable is it for Black Templars to turn?

 

Though I may very well end up changing my mind and going Black Legion... my opinion of them seems to be growing steadily...

[Kronk]

Templars would be the last chapter to turn to chaos. Their hatred of the warp is such that they are not allowed Librarians. The only psykers they can enter the field with are grey knights.

 

IMHO, they are second only to grey knights in their purity.

 

Per the fluff, I don't believe there have been any recorded cases of Black Templars turning to chaos.

 

They would, however, go after any other chapter whose members had fallen with righteous furry.

[Legatus]

Templars would be the last chapter to turn to chaos. Their hatred of the warp is such that they are not allowed Librarians.

Which means that technically they would be the first Chapter to fall to Chaos, as they seem to have no screening whatsoever. One of the key duties of Librarians is to protect their brothers from warp threats and screen the new recruits for psychic abilities.

 

Edit: However, so as to not confuse the OP: While that would logically have to be the consequence, that is not what GW is going for with the Black Templar. Their lack of Psykers is sort of a major plot hole, since it indeed makes them very vulnerable and unreliable in crucial areas. Nonethe less, they are described as utterly loyal.

[Xeonic]

They can take a vow that lets them nullify any psychic power on a 5+ that's targeting any BT unit. Now, granted that's not as powerful as a rune priest's 4+, but it's powerful in it's own right as it covers the entire army. I'm sure when they get a 5th edition codex they'll have some other powerful way to represent the anti psyker trait.

I'm note sure if this is to represent some anti-psyker tech or pure faith that would protect them from the perils of the warp.

 

I think that they are very unlikely to fall to chaos given that anyone who manifests any mutation or psychic power would most likely be summarily executed. Neophytes are very carefully trained on a 1v1 basis in the black templars unlike other chapters, and this also has the effect that they would be fairly easy to moniter.

[Cosmic Archmage]

Khorne too hates psykers...

[Ju'kosian]

I haven't seen black templar renegades in the fluff.. altough it's not unlikely that there are some.

But as said they hate psykers and mostly refuse to work alongside any (exception being inquisition forces offcourse)

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

It would be very rare for a Black Templar to fall to chaos, much less a large portion of a crusade.

 

One has to consider that the Black Templar are almost as strong in willpower and faith as the Grey Knights are, merely lacking that latent psychic strength to reinforce it. It would be very hard for Chaos to sway a Templar, purely because he has such a single-minded devotion to the Emperor and to the Imperium. Consider that in the comic series Damnation Crusade, a Chaplain tells a Templar he would have killed him for the sin of pride. The Templar states he would expect no less. These are men who willingly would allow you to kill them if they failed the Emperor or had a period of laxity. These guys are DEVOTED.

 

Plus, they have so much cool iconography, trading it out for Chaos would be rather lame :lol:

[Draeden]

I see, thank you then. If I were ever to pursue this idea I guess it would be as a Successor Chapter then instead of a Black Templar army.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

There are painted Black Templar members of the Red Corsairs in the 3.5th edition of the Chaos Codex.

 

Only the Grey Knights can claim to have no members fallen to Chaos; no other statement on the rate of incidence among other Chapters has been made to my (if I may shed the cloak of humility) extensive knowledge.

 

Khorne too hates psykers...

 

Indeed.

 

It would be very rare for a Black Templar to fall to chaos, much less a large portion of a crusade.

 

It would be rare for any Space Marine to fall to Chaos. The strictures of selection and indoctrination ensure this. As long as you're not a Grey Knight, though, it is possible. And the Black Templars' lack of psykers is as much a hindrance as it is a boon, as Legatus pointed out.

 

One has to consider that the Black Templar are almost as strong in willpower and faith as the Grey Knights are, merely lacking that latent psychic strength to reinforce it. It would be very hard for Chaos to sway a Templar, purely because he has such a single-minded devotion to the Emperor and to the Imperium. Consider that in the comic series Damnation Crusade, a Chaplain tells a Templar he would have killed him for the sin of pride. The Templar states he would expect no less. These are men who willingly would allow you to kill them if they failed the Emperor or had a period of laxity. These guys are DEVOTED.

 

Yes, they are devoted to the Emperor. That's what Space Marines, as a whole, do. All Space Marines have incredible depth of faith and willpower (and no statement has been made to my knowledge comparing the Grey Knights and Black Templars in this regard), all are very difficult to tempt with Chaos, and all have harsh punishments for going against Chapter doctrine.

 

However, when Chaos manages, through whatever insidious means, to corrupt these devoted, faithful, indomitable, and heavily indoctrinated Marines, the fall is both great and terrible. And that's what this is meant to explore.

 

Plus, they have so much cool iconography, trading it out for Chaos would be rather lame :P

 

But adapting this iconography to Chaos might be fun for a prospecting modeler.

 

EDIT: Also, see the Octaguide for concerns about Successor Chapters of the Black Templars. I'd just use the Black Templars for clarity.

[Legatus]

There are painted Black Templar members of the Red Corsairs in the 3.5th edition of the Chaos Codex.

Mine only has Crimson Fists, a Dark Angel and a Space Wolf.

 

 

Only the Grey Knights can claim to have no members fallen to Chaos; no other statement on the rate of incidence among other Chapters has been made to my (if I may shed the cloak of humility) extensive knowledge.

IIRC the Grey Knights background merely states that no Grey Knight has ever succumbed to the dark powers. It does not specifically point out that only the Grey Knights never had any member succumb to the dark powers, though it may imply that this is the intended meaning.

 

This is what their Index Astartes entry says about them:

 

"The Chapter's warriors are heavily conditioned to resist the whispered seductions of Chaos and the honeyed lies of daemonic creatures. These precautions are vital and, thus far, have proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers."

 

The Codex Daemonhunters is similarly phrased (page 7). It does imply that the Grey Knight training is superior to that of regular Chapters, though it does not directly state that they alone never had one of their ranks turn to Chaos. Perhaps there are other sources I have missed out right now (I did not check for 2nd edition sources, for example).

 

There are sort of similar lines for other Chapters, such as in the Index Astartes of the Ultramarines, where (under "beliefs") after having described the extraordinary disciplin of the people of Macragge it reads that "No Warrior of the Ultramarines would bring shame on the Chapter". The Chapter's "unmatched loyalty" had been refered to in earlier sources as well. There may be similar definitive statements for other Chapters, though in my brief scan of the Index Astartes I did not find others like that. And then it could allways be contested whether that statement was really meant to say that no Ultramarine ever did any such thing, or whether it was just meant as a generalising statement.

[Xeonic]

I haven't seen black templar renegades in the fluff.. altough it's not unlikely that there are some.

But as said they hate psykers and mostly refuse to work alongside any (exception being inquisition forces offcourse)

Well, a single traitor here or there, sure, I could see that, but not whole renegade crusade forces.

 

Black Templars won't work with ANY psyker who's not a Grey Knight. This is actually written into their codex as an army rule(p23), the only psykers they trust(and thus can be fielded with) are Grey Knights, period. No inquisitors, no librarians, "no models with psychic powers", with the sole exception of grey knights space marines. It's an important distinction.

 

The easiest way to sneak in templar iconography into a renegade force would be to say they're a knightly chapter, or something like the codex marines Red Templars. There are a thousand chapters and many of them would undoubtedly adopt medieval iconography and stylings.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

There are painted Black Templar members of the Red Corsairs in the 3.5th edition of the Chaos Codex.

Mine only has Crimson Fists, a Dark Angel and a Space Wolf.

 

 

Only the Grey Knights can claim to have no members fallen to Chaos; no other statement on the rate of incidence among other Chapters has been made to my (if I may shed the cloak of humility) extensive knowledge.

IIRC the Grey Knights background merely states that no Grey Knight has ever succumbed to the dark powers. It does not specifically point out that only the Grey Knights never had any member succumb to the dark powers, though it may imply that this is the intended meaning.

 

This is what their Index Astartes entry says about them:

 

"The Chapter's warriors are heavily conditioned to resist the whispered seductions of Chaos and the honeyed lies of daemonic creatures. These precautions are vital and, thus far, have proven to be effective, as not a single Grey Knight has faltered in battle or become a pawn of the Dark Powers."

 

The Codex Daemonhunters is similarly phrased (page 7). It does imply that the Grey Knight training is superior to that of regular Chapters, though it does not directly state that they alone never had one of their ranks turn to Chaos. Perhaps there are other sources I have missed out right now (I did not check for 2nd edition sources, for example).

 

There are sort of similar lines for other Chapters, such as in the Index Astartes of the Ultramarines, where (under "beliefs") after having described the extraordinary disciplin of the people of Macragge it reads that "No Warrior of the Ultramarines would bring shame on the Chapter". The Chapter's "unmatched loyalty" had been refered to in earlier sources as well. There may be similar definitive statements for other Chapters, though in my brief scan of the Index Astartes I did not find others like that. And then it could allways be contested whether that statement was really meant to say that no Ultramarine ever did any such thing, or whether it was just meant as a generalising statement.

 

Damn and blast. It was American White Dwarf 302, page 92. That is where the painted Black Templar members of the Red Corsairs are to be found.

 

Also damn and blast, but with dissimilar success in finding the original reference. I know that somewhere in my stack of books there is a reference to the Grey Knights being singular amongst Space Marines for having no members fall to Chaos. I know this is not a Chinese whisper, for I have cited it myself somewhere.

 

Thank you for your vigilance, you're the champion of accuracy, Legatus.

[IronWinds]

Think about something for a second... who do the templars have more in common with than ANY other army in the history of the Imperium. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

Black Templars= Pre-heresy Word Bearers :) . Oh yea... they would never turn to chaos.