Daemonhunters as Custodes, Witchhunters as SoS

[Hfran Morkai]

Hi there, don't post in here often.

 

I'm in the planning stages of a Heresy force based on the sacking of Prospero and I wanted to include various elements in Apocalypse-sized games to give a feel for the entire invasion force. However Custodes and the Sisters of Silence lack official rules so I was wondering what you people think about using both Inquisition dexes for the flavour and flair to represent these two factions?

 

I know there's whispers (fitting, eh?) of an Inquisition codex in the pipeline but that doesn't really bother me, I'm just wondering if it's a characterful way to go, obviously avoiding things which are strictly Daemon aimed (though an Inquisitor, with a more suitable title would be fun), Storm Bolters could be a problem but I'd expect Custodes to be well equipped with fine wargear anyway.

 

With regards to Withhunters I know very little, due to not owning the Codex but how would they substitute as Sisters of Silence?

 

Cheers for any feedback.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I think both would be a good fit. The Sisters of Battle have an innate protection from psychic powers represented by a universal invulnerable save sort of effect against them, which parallels the Sisters of Silence nicely (Coincidence? I doubt it... :P ). Grey Knights as Custodes work well enough in terms of game mechanics that I doubt anyone would have major issues. Far easier to use existing rules than to make up new ones and have it work. I say go for it!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd try using the rules made by Bell of Lost Souls. Have a look for 'Heresy Era ruleset'. They have rules for both Custodes and Sisters of Silence. Pretty nice too.

 

If you don't wanna bother with that, Grey Knight Terminators are a good fit to Custodes. Attaching a Daemonhunter Inquisitor with a null rod (count-as a Sister Superior) to a Battle Sister or Celestian squad would also be a good fit to Sisters of Silence.

 

In terms of background, the Sisters of Silence are entirely separate to the Sisters of Battle. They are the Chamber Militant of the Adeptus Telepathica, whereas the Sisters of Battle are the Eccleisarchy's armed forces and the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus (an arrangement brought about by the events of the Age of Apostasy). Given that they were in existence during the Heresy, and the Black Ships continue to be in service, I would assume they are still doing their primary job of ship security on the Black Ships.

[Hfran Morkai]

I've had a look at some of the rules floating round (BoLS and TF) but using official dexes for counts as would be much easier, admittedly this is for Apocalypse where rules are a bit more lax but we know GW made up the rules. (Because I really like the Tempestus Fugitives rules-set) The Null Rod Inquisitor is a good idea and I might try and take multiple of them for the Sisters of Silence squads. (Apocalypse likes us disregarding restrictions)

 

Thanks for the additional background on the Sisters of Battle and Silence, I had a feeling they were separate orders, just gives me a nice way to add in some more flavourful units for fun without huge armies.

 

If only the Imperial Army was at Prospero...(I'm unsure on this one, need to get my copy of the book back :lol:)

 

Thanks for the help!

 

Now here's hoping to some =I= plastic kits somewhere in the future!

[Inquisitor Fox]

It's hard to say whether or not they're seperate orders, as it hasn't been stated anywhere what happens to the Sisters of Silence after the heresy. The Daughters of the Emperor were an order on an individual planet rediscovered by Vandire right before/during the Reign of Blood. It is possible they are related to the Sisters of Silence somehow that fluff and/or Warhammer history hasn't stated. We do not know the origins of the Daughters of the Emperor or from where their martial combat arts originated. We also haven't seen any official fluff stating that the Sisters of Silence still exist aboard the Black Ships. The only recent fluff I remember seeing pertaining to Black Ship security speaks about ISTs ;)

 

It is true they are technically two seperate orders, however it is entirely possible that since they are seperated by milennia, and are normal humans in terms of lifespans, that one evolved into the other over time. It's something I am curious to see if it gets resolved in the Horus Heresy novels.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If only the Imperial Army was at Prospero...(I'm unsure on this one, need to get my copy of the book back )

 

I'm fairly certain they werent. It was Space Wolves, a contingent of Custodes under Valdor and a contingent of Sisters of Silence. The latter two groups only deployed at the explicit orders of the Emperor (because he knew that the Wolves would need help).

 

It's hard to say whether or not they're seperate orders, as it hasn't been stated anywhere what happens to the Sisters of Silence after the heresy. The Daughters of the Emperor were an order on an individual planet rediscovered by Vandire right before/during the Reign of Blood. It is possible they are related to the Sisters of Silence somehow that fluff and/or Warhammer history hasn't stated. We do not know the origins of the Daughters of the Emperor or from where their martial combat arts originated. We also haven't seen any official fluff stating that the Sisters of Silence still exist aboard the Black Ships. The only recent fluff I remember seeing pertaining to Black Ship security speaks about ISTs

 

It is true they are technically two seperate orders, however it is entirely possible that since they are seperated by milennia, and are normal humans in terms of lifespans, that one evolved into the other over time. It's something I am curious to see if it gets resolved in the Horus Heresy novels.

 

You're confusing it more than you have to. The timeline is pretty clear, and while they share similarities in wargear and names, they are completely different.

 

1. Emperor begins Great Crusade. Adeptus Telepathica is formed, which governs the control and use of psykers within the Imperium (obviously excluding special cases like the Navigators and the Librarian covens formed by the Thousand Sons in the different Legions). Chamber Militant is formed to help them police psykers (as ordinary humans or Astartes are not able to deal with powerful rogue psykers). Sisters of Silence are an all-female order of psychic nulls, each of them carrying the Pariah gene. They are stationed aboard the Black Ships, which travel the length of the new empire collecting psykers from holding facilities to be taken back to Terra for processing. Additionally, some Sister of Silence must be stationed at the Imperial Palace, because when Magnus breaks the Emperor's webway portal, they and the Custodes are the only real defence against the daemonic legions that lay seige to the Golden Throne.

2. Fast forward past the Heresy to the Age of Apostasty. Gorge Vandire rules the Imperium, and he recruits the Brides of the Emperor (a fanatical warrior-cult of exclusively women, I forget the exact planet but they were just on one planet and originally found by Vandire) to be his personal bodyguard. The Adeptus Custodes reveal Vandire's heresy to the leaders of the Brides of the Emperor, who switch allegiances and help kill Vandire.

3. After all this civil war, a new order of the Inquisition is founded to police the Imperium from within, with it's focus on the Imperial Church. The Eccelisarcy, cleverly subverting the ban on the Frateris Militia, draw the Brides of the Emperor under their wing and they are re-named the Sisters of Battle. Additionally, their strength is divided into distinct Orders (rather in the manner of the division of the Legions after the Heresy). The newly-formed Ordo Hereticus strikes a compromise with the Imperial Church. The Sisters of Battle can remain the official armed forces of the Eccelisarchy, but at any time an Inquisitor can step in and assume command of the Sisters. Thus, the Sisters of Battle are both the armed forces of the Imperial Church and the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, with the latter taking precedence in the event of a dispute between the two. Thus, there is a check on the power of rogue cardinals, as any attempt to break away from the Imperium or garner undue power will result in their own troops turning on them by order of the Inquisition.

4. As far as can be known, the Sisters of Silence were never disbanded, and the Black Ships continue to operate. Powerful psykers require powerful anti-psykers to contain (wards can be burnt out with enough power, null generators can fail). So it can reasonably concluded they continue to operate in the 41st millenia, as the same process that was in place pre-Heresy continues, and they are still required to be the first line of defence if a prisoner attempts a breakout on a Black Ship.

[Inquisitor Fox]

You're confusing it more than you have to. The timeline is pretty clear, and while they share similarities in wargear and names, they are completely different.

No confusion is intended, and I agree the timeline is pretty clear, it's filling in the one major gap and your ending assumption that I'm bringing up. I'll attempt to demonstrate:

 

1. ... Additionally, some Sister of Silence must be stationed at the Imperial Palace, because when Magnus breaks the Emperor's webway portal, they and the Custodes are the only real defence against the daemonic legions that lay seige to the Golden Throne.

2. Fast forward past the Heresy to the Age of Apostasty. Gorge Vandire rules the Imperium, and he recruits the Brides of the Emperor (a fanatical warrior-cult of exclusively women, I forget the exact planet but they were just on one planet and originally found by Vandire) to be his personal bodyguard. The Adeptus Custodes reveal Vandire's heresy to the leaders of the Brides of the Emperor, who switch allegiances and help kill Vandire.

The Adepta Sororitas were originally named Daughters of the Emperor. Vandire changed the name to Brides of the Emperor, and they later changed it back to Daughters after the conversation between Alicia Dominca and the Emperor himself. After this they also got the name Adepta Sororitas as they were formally institutionalized.

 

All I am bringing up is that we do not have any official fluff record between the end of the Horus Heresy and the beginning of the Age of Apostasy in terms of what happened to the Sisters of Silence. They've kind of lept into fluff starting with the Horus Heresy series from nothingness, and they haven't existed before this. There's no mention of them in modern fluff, and so far no mention of what happened to them. That's a fairly long period of time and in the 40K universe, a lot can happen in that long of a time frame.

 

I am stating that one possibility is they evolved into the Daughters of the Emperor. There is no official fluff to indicate this is so (there is also not yet any fluff to indicate it isn't), there are however a few similarities in terms of gear and protection from psychic powers (the 'Shield of Faith' special rule that the Adepta Sororitas units possess) brings up the possibility.

 

4. As far as can be known, the Sisters of Silence were never disbanded, and the Black Ships continue to operate. Powerful psykers require powerful anti-psykers to contain (wards can be burnt out with enough power, null generators can fail). So it can reasonably concluded they continue to operate in the 41st millenia, as the same process that was in place pre-Heresy continues, and they are still required to be the first line of defence if a prisoner attempts a breakout on a Black Ship.

This is true, we do not know if they were disbanded. We do know, however, that Inquisitors themselves are also on the Black Ships, many of whom are quite skilled enough to manage a prisoner breakout should one happen. It does not necessarily indicate that the Sisters of Silence still exist because there is a niche they can fulfill. I would argue that since we do not see any mention of them in any other published work outside of the Horus Heresy that the simpler explaination is that something happened to them and they do not currently exist in the same fashion as they did historically. I believe their mysterious absence from current fluff (and the fact that the role they seem to have had before is now being performed by the Adepta Sororitas, including the psykers and the Black Ships/purity checks of the Imperium) is more telling.

 

In the end though, we have to chalk it all up to "We don't know." ;) It's fun to postulate though what may have happened to them!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Adepta Sororitas were originally named Daughters of the Emperor. Vandire changed the name to Brides of the Emperor, and they later changed it back to Daughters after the conversation between Alicia Dominca and the Emperor himself. After this they also got the name Adepta Sororitas as they were formally institutionalized.

 

Yeah I thought that was right...then I went for Brides because thats what they were called under Vandire's control. Just got confused by all the name-changing.

 

All I am bringing up is that we do not have any official fluff record between the end of the Horus Heresy and the beginning of the Age of Apostasy in terms of what happened to the Sisters of Silence. They've kind of lept into fluff starting with the Horus Heresy series from nothingness, and they haven't existed before this. There's no mention of them in modern fluff, and so far no mention of what happened to them. That's a fairly long period of time and in the 40K universe, a lot can happen in that long of a time frame.

 

Well of course dude. The first mention we get of them is in the Horus Heresy, which is retroactive (ie 41st millenia stuff won't always synch up with it). Same thing goes for the Golden Throne, several Primarchs etc etc...they've kinda burnt at one end, and are now working towards it from the other end of the candle.

 

My point is we've had no mention of what's happened to them since. As such, all we can do is make logical inferences. Mine is that since the Black Ships still operate, and they still require such special individuals to police them, therefore you'd still find Sisters of Silence on board.

 

I am stating that one possibility is they evolved into the Daughters of the Emperor. There is no official fluff to indicate this is so (there is also not yet any fluff to indicate it isn't), there are however a few similarities in terms of gear and protection from psychic powers (the 'Shield of Faith' special rule that the Adepta Sororitas units possess) brings up the possibility.

 

It's very unlikely however. The Pariah gene is a mutation, and there is one thing the Sisters of Battle in all their incarnations hated more than anyting was deviance, either in thought or in body. It's a very long bow to draw. Yes, they're both all-female armed forces, and they both are 'Sisters' of something. After that the similarities end. I very much doubt the Daughters of the Emperor, on their one world, had the resources to equip themselves with bolters, power armour etc. They were most likely a female version of a Frateris Militia. The reason the Sororitas in modern 40k have such wargear is due to the immense influence and wealth of the Imperial Church, who can afford to equip what is essentially their own fanatical version of the Imperial Guard nearly to the level of Astartes.

 

Sisters of Silence on the other hand were created to hunt psykers and control them (although such talents also proved useful against Daemons as well). They were like a counterpart to the Custodes.

 

My point overall is that the Sisters of Silence date their existence back to pre-Heresy times, whereas the Sororitas only come into the picture quite late in Imperial history, in the Age of Apostasy.

 

This is true, we do not know if they were disbanded. We do know, however, that Inquisitors themselves are also on the Black Ships, many of whom are quite skilled enough to manage a prisoner breakout should one happen. It does not necessarily indicate that the Sisters of Silence still exist because there is a niche they can fulfill. I would argue that since we do not see any mention of them in any other published work outside of the Horus Heresy that the simpler explaination is that something happened to them and they do not currently exist in the same fashion as they did historically. I believe their mysterious absence from current fluff (and the fact that the role they seem to have had before is now being performed by the Adepta Sororitas, including the psykers and the Black Ships/purity checks of the Imperium) is more telling.

 

Inquisitors are not going to be wasted guarding prisoners, thats what they get their servants to do. I don't think you quite appreciate just how critical it is that psykers do not manifest on a Black Ship. Not only will there be a few powerful individuals on board anyway, they could unite and obliterate the rest of the crew on the ship. Worse, they could be used by Chaos or other warp-predators to create portals onto the ship. There are wards that can contain psykers, and null generators that simulate the effects of the Pariah gene, but you can't beat power-armoured soldiers who by default are immune to your powers and actively weaken you with their presence. Stormtroopers can be exploded, manipulated or possessed; Sisters of Silence have to be killed the hard way. And given that they are the ones with the power armour and bolters, whereas the prisoners would be lucky to have a crude knife between them, Sisters of Silence will win every time.

 

Their absence from modern 40k isn't mysterious, it's just a product of the ret-con process. By way of example, until quite recently (in real-time, not 40k time), we had very little understanding of what the Custodes were up to during the Heresy. Now with the series progressing and the 'Collected Visions' published, we know they were critical on during the Battle for Prospero, and they were one of only two forces (the other being the Sisters of Silence) that could hold the webway portal on Terra against the daemonic legions assaulting it. Given that the Custodes have endured into the 41st millenia, it's logical to assume the Sisters of Silence have too. The Emperor still needs guarding, the Black Ships still need policing by a force that can overpower even the most dangerous alpha-plus psyker.

 

I agree with you, it's pretty much speculation on our part without any confirmation from GW. But as a logical inference (educated guess), I'd say it's more likely the Sisters of Silence are still active in the same role they played pre-Heresy.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Interesting read and i agree with most of it, except that the Adepta Sororitas do NOT fall under the control of the Inquisition nor can one just walk in and take over any Sisters of Battle,

 

The Order Militants work along side them in name only, they only answer to there Oders Militant and the High Lord of the Eccliasiarchy, no one else except the Emporor of course.

If the SoB want to refuse an order from an Inquisitor they could, but probably wont unless it contridicts and orders or there Faith.

But said Inquisitor are not immune to any SoB from being purged either, so pushing his/her weight on a SoB is not a good idea.

[Judanas]

Interesting read and i agree with most of it, except that the Adepta Sororitas do NOT fall under the control of the Inquisition nor can one just walk in and take over any Sisters of Battle,

 

The Order Militants work along side them in name only, they only answer to there Oders Militant and the High Lord of the Eccliasiarchy, no one else except the Emporor of course.

If the SoB want to refuse an order from an Inquisitor they could, but probably wont unless it contridicts and orders or there Faith.

But said Inquisitor are not immune to any SoB from being purged either, so pushing his/her weight on a SoB is not a good idea.

 

I thought they were the millitary of the Inquisition as much as the Eccliasiarchy. Page 11 of the codex says they can demand thier services at any time.

 

I always figured the Order of Command with the Sisters of Battle went; Emperor, What they think is right, Inquisition, Eccliasiarchy. They Listen to what the priests say most of the time but you give them reason to think you are a Heretic or just plain going agaisnt what the Emperor would want and you go the way of Vandire. But there isn't really any proper information on that, so it's speculation from me.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I thought they were the millitary of the Inquisition as much as the Eccliasiarchy. Page 11 of the codex says they can demand thier services at any time.

 

I always figured the Order of Command with the Sisters of Battle went; Emperor, What they think is right, Inquisition, Eccliasiarchy. They Listen to what the priests say most of the time but you give them reason to think you are a Heretic or just plain going agaisnt what the Emperor would want and you go the way of Vandire.

 

That's currently speculative since there's not been a real Inquisition-Ecclesiarchy conflict since the Age of Apostasy. The Sisters of Battle have never really been called out on their conflicting loyalties. If they did I imagine they would just sit it out, not help either side and just let one of the other Chamber Militants deal with it. The priests can certainly be heretics, but then so can Inquisitors.

 

To the OP: There was just such an army featured in White Dwarf a couple of years ago, actually. Around WD 310 (UK edition) IIRC.

[Kaled100]

Their absence from modern 40k isn't mysterious, it's just a product of the ret-con process.

I'd agree but for the fact that there have been plenty of mentions of the workings of the Blackships, quite a few of which have been written since the Sisters of Silence were introduced into the background, and there hasn't been any mention of the Sisters in the 41st millenium. There's mention of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers guarding the Blackships, and of Sororitas performing tours of duty aborad them; and plenty of mentions of potent psychic wards and null fields and so on to keep the prisoners under control. If they'd only been part of the background for a short time, your argument would make sense, but the longer they go without being mentioned in the 41st millenium, the more likely it seems to me that they were destroyed/disbanded/something else.

 

Or they may appear in the very next book to be published...

 

Also it occurs to me that during the Heresy, the Blackships were run by the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, but it's now stated that they're jointly run by the AAT and the Inquisition. Perhaps the reason the Inquisition became involved is that the Sisters of Silence are no longer around and the AAT needed the expertise of the Inquisition to ensure the smooth running of the ships.

 

- Dave

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'd agree but for the fact that there have been plenty of mentions of the workings of the Blackships, quite a few of which have been written since the Sisters of Silence were introduced into the background, and there hasn't been any mention of the Sisters in the 41st millenium. There's mention of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers guarding the Blackships, and of Sororitas performing tours of duty aborad them; and plenty of mentions of potent psychic wards and null fields and so on to keep the prisoners under control. If they'd only been part of the background for a short time, your argument would make sense, but the longer they go without being mentioned in the 41st millenium, the more likely it seems to me that they were destroyed/disbanded/something else.

 

You're misunderstanding me. My point is than until the Horus Heresy novel series began (and lead to the 'Collected Visions' series), we had no idea that the Sisters of Silence even existed. They enter the 40k canon at that point in real-time. Obviously, this would mean there are no prior references to draw upon (although the exact nature of how the Black Ships operate has never been really examined or explained formally).

 

I just can't see how they would disappear off the map. I mean, the Assassin Temples date back to before even the Emperor. The Sisters of Silence play a critical part in the upkeep of not just the Astrominican, but also the survival of the Emperor.

 

I would stress again that barring some very strange canon twists (the HH series isn't finished yet, and although we had a tantalising tid-bit of info in the 'Tales of Heresy' book with that short story about the SoS), it's reasonable to think they're still around. The Inquisition is only as powerful as the minds and the assets they command in their hidden battles. They aren't some panacea to all problems, in fact they can often be just as much a part of the problem as the solution, depending on their ideological position/faction affiliation. The Sisters of Silence are an institution that pre-dates the Inquisition (and in terms of importance during that era, they rank second only to the Custodes), and it would be patently absurd that they would've been disbanded. They posses an extremely rare gift (ironically it's rarer than the psykers they police), they are fanatically loyal to the Emperor, and they've had the entire Great Crusade to hone their battle-craft and traditions (not to mention they played key roles in both the Battle for Prospero and the Siege of Terra). Not only that, they were the designated Chamber Militant of the Adeptus Astro Telepathica. It'd be like disbanding the Grey Knights.

 

I would posit their absence from modern 40k to be the same as the absence of the Custodes (ignoring my previous real-world explanation of why they don't appear much, if at all). Both were institutions created by the Emperor with explicit purposes, and those purposes do not make them usable by the Inquisition under all but the most extreme circumstances. You can't just requisition the Emperor's personal bodyguard at whim. Likewise, the Sisters of Silence don't participate in the Imperium's wars because it's not what they were created to do. The only reason they were on Prospero was to slay a master psyker Primarch for disobeying the Emperor directly (same for the Custodes, they were very rarely deployed without the Emperor also being in person).

[Kaled100]

I don't think I am misunderstanding you, but answer me this - why do you think the Sisters of Silence have not been mentioned in any of the 40k books that feature the Blackships published since they (the Sisters) were introduced into the canon? Authors have had plenty of opportunities to drop in at least a passing mention to them in the 41st millenium when they've written about the Blackships, but they haven't...

 

But as you say, the HH series is far from over - plenty of time yet to explain their destruction/disbanding/survival to the 41st millenium. I can think of a few scenarios in which they wouldn't have survived, but similarly your position is also reasonable, so at the moment there's no compelling reason to believe one way or the other - for now I'm keeping and open mind on the issue and we'll just have to wait and see what happens to them.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

They may still be around, just not on the Black ships, just like ow you no longer get Custodes being messengers or leaving Terra, they are to busy guarding the Emperor, the Webway gate is a potental Daemon arrival point, is it possible that the Sisters of Silence are kept there with the Custodes in the event the daemons come a knocking? even not that, but perhaps on the Council of High Lords to prevent someone like the Mule from Issac Asimov's foundation books from gaining power.

To the OP, go for it, if you model the custodes or sisters, please post pictures.