Where did Chaos find fear?

[Excess Nerd]

All the loyalist Space marines have ATSKNF but some how all of chaos lost this. Did the learn fear in the Warp or find it or whatever? How is living in the most messed up and scariest environment make them learn to run away?

[Warp space]

it is a question asked many times and the answer is I DO NOT KNOW. My best guess would be right after the fall of Horus when they learned that they could be beaten. remeber up till then Space marines where number one no buddy could beat them.

[minigun762]

I always took it that its not so much that they can be scared now or afraid but rather that they're less likely to sell their lives to the enemy compared to Loyalist Marines. Most of them aren't working with the same kind of noble, demanding reasons that Loyalist have and instead tend to serve themselves.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Real reason? Differentiation between different armies in the game. Loyalists had to have something Chaos didn't, so they got ATSKNF. Of course, the fluff reason is what Minigun said, that CSM are less likely to be as devoted to a cause as the Loyalists.

[sonsoftaurus]

Imperial Space Marines shall know no fear.

 

Chaos Marines have traveled in the dark places of the galaxy and know that there are indeed things that should be feared.

 

And they aspire to become one of them.

 

The greatest reward a loyalist can get is to be remembered for dying in the service of the Emperor. The greatest reward a CSM can get is ascension to daemonhood and immortality. The three possible fates are death, spawnhood, or daemonhood. Do what you can to avoid the first two and hasten the third.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

It is simply because they lack dogma. Imperial Space Marines believe so firmly that their own fate is not important to them - fluffwise, they do, in fact, know fear, but that fear is fear for humanity or the emperor, or the fear to fail, not for their lives, so it is a kind of fear that would rather have them advance on the enemy than retreat or flee.

 

A chaos Space Marine, on the other hand, is mostly an individualist, he does value his life higher than the lives of others, and much higher than some ideology or community. That is why he knows fear - he has got something to lose, while an Imperial Space Marine, in a way, has already accepted his death, much like a samurai (who do not know fear, either, at least if the Hagekure is to be believed).

[Captain Tezdal]

I don't see it as them being afraid, more like yea they'll fight, but more self-interested then your average loyalists, not wanting to martyr themselves etc

[Xeonic]

I thought the and they shall know no fear bit(not fearlessness, mind you) was due to the fact that all space marines since the heresy were psycho-indoctrinated to avoid any more major heresy, they're basically brainwashed to be the most perfect servants to the imperium that they can be.

 

Chaos marines have none of that and are more driven by personal ambitions. They will flee the battlefield if they deem it necessary, they would rather live to fight another day than die for any of their leaders, who they probably all seek to usurp anyways. They may follow those who have lead them since the heresy, but they won't unconditionally die for them as a loyalist space marine would.

 

Anyways, just my take.

[Legatus]

It is not about fear, it is about what a Marine is prepared to die for. A Chaos Marines may not be affraid of death or alien horrors, but he may not be willing to lay down his life if he can prevent it none the less.

 

A loyalist Marine, if convinced that he will die if not temporarily retreat, will stay in the fight because he is prepared to give his life for his brothers and his mission. Chaos Marines do not care that much about their brothers or their mission. They fight because of personal reasons, to gain power or loot or because they hate the Imperial dogs. They will not give their life just so their Lord or their brothers can get the spoils of war. If they are convinced that they will not survive if they keep fighting, they will retreat.

There may be traitor Marines that are utterly fanatical and stopping will not ever cross their minds. Those are usually 'fearless'. Some are motivated by the conviction that the dark powers will watch over them, which is represented by the Mark of Chaos Undivided.

[Lay]

Codex: CSM 3rd ed. states:

"The only real weakness of a Chaos Space Marine compared to his imperial counterpart is that he has a (very sensible) desire to preserve his own skin and therefore does not benefit from the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' rule that prevents loyal Space Marines from running away."

 

He who fights and runs away, may live to fight another day.

[IronWinds]

The above is really it. A leadership test is not just about 'fear'. Necrons don't have a 'fear' emotion. But they are programmed to preserve their metal hides if things look rough.

 

Chaos marines don't know fear, but there is something they want to do tomorrow and getting stepped on by a warhound titan is not one of them.

 

Even in game, its pretty hard to make a CSM run. All the cults are fearless, and anyone playing CSMs takes the icon of glory. Ld w/ re-roll, or fearless. We may not have ATSKNF, but we have the closest thing you are going to get to it.

[Excess Nerd]

I get it now ATSKNF is more like I am too much indoctrinated to believe that I am important compared to the plans of the goals of leaders.

[BrotherMoses]

When you live only for yourself there is nothing worth dying for.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Though there are probably Chaos Space Marines to whom there is something worth dying for.

 

Like the Word Bearers. But they're heavily indoctrinated... so... brings us to our original point.

 

How about Night Lords? Their Primarch died to prove a point, I bet those left among his Legion who aspire to follow his example could find something to die for.

 

Alpha Legion might, but their whole Legion is a question mark at this point anyway.

 

World Eaters would die if they had no other foes to slay. Khorne cares not... but that's Fearlessness for you.

 

Rubrics don't have a choice of dying. Sorcerers do, but that's what Rubrics are for.

 

Emperor's Children likely view this as just another, if final, sensation.

 

Death Guard are in the happiest religion in 40k next to Orks. They don't mind. Nurgle's awesome that way.

 

Iron Warriors are selfish, paranoid bastards. Their own Primarch is so paranoid he spends his days as a Daemon Prince building the most epic Lego fortress ever, and then building another, more epic one, on top of it. And so on.

 

Black Legion are generally warbands led by powerful figures, don't have as much indoctrination or order to speak of, and haven't tied themselves so closely to a god that they lack a sense for self-preservation.

 

Corsairs and renegades have forsaken the heritage of their Chapter, and don't have that of a Legion to uphold, in addition to the problems of Black Legionnaires.

[BrotherMoses]

I could see your interpretation Imperialis as valid, but I interpret it this way:

 

Word Bearers: Part of a religion that pretty much encourages the chaos of "every man for himself".

 

Night Lords: Any noble deed their primarch did has been lost to their love of terrorizing their enemies.

 

Those are the two big ones I see. The Night Lords not so much even as just the Word Bearers.

[Yogi]

With the reroll Icon they are pretty damn close to fearless anyway.

[the jeske]

not the way Ld modifires in hth work . and chaos being a short range hth army means your in hth a lot [+unlike sm rule Icon can die and then the re-roll is gone."see the csm dont want to dirty their hands with their unholy relicts when they drop to the ground"] . this is also one of the reasons zerkers/pms are better most of the time then pure csm builds.

[Machine God]

They found it in the dictionary under F!

[fusilero]

Because the loyal Space Marines fight for a greater cause, the Imperium and the Emperor. The Chaos Space Marines fight for themselves. They don't want to die.

[Argon]

They found it in the dictionary under F!

 

I see what you did there.

[Magnus Thane]

More the nature of the beast.

 

CSM's aren't cowards, they just don't have anything to gain from a relentless last stance.

If the battle turns bad, better to have a tactical retreat and to live to fight another day.

Time is (kinda) on the side of the CSM's.

SM's can't afford to loose ground to CSM's who undoubtably tend to be up to delicious insidious antics.

[the_forgefather]

They found it in the dictionary under F!

 

Great deductive reasoning!

 

When you live only for yourself there is nothing worth dying for. -Brother Moses

 

I'm with Brother Moses on this one, if you're living for yourself then taking any risk would mean you're endangering yourself, therefore you'd more than likely not take because if you die, well, you're gone and your life was meaningless (frankly). But if you're living for a cause or for some person then you have something to die for, so you're only going to take a risk if it betters the cause or the person.

 

Simply put, you're more willing to take risks and die than you would be if you're living for yourself. Regardless of fluff.

[Rain]

This is a recurring topic on this forum, so I guess I'll throw in my usual two cents. I think that while it makes sense that Chaos Marines "live for themselves" there must be some accounting for the fact that retreat is as good as death as long as your lord is alive as it's unlikely that he would look kindly upon an unscheduled retreat interfering with his plans. Therefore I think that there should be some mechanic wherein as long as the highest points cost HQ is alive all Chaos units are at least stubborn to represent their fear of retribution from their leader. Once he dies however it's every man for himself and their extra bravery is lost. Or you can just play a cult army and not worry about it too much.

[Xeonic]

Well, it's worth noting that with rerollable LD10 they won't be running too often, just when things really get bad. :P

It's not running away, it's a well thought out tactical withdrawal.

[Lord Tharand]

It's really just a tactical movement to the rear. :D