Finding the right Chaos Space marine army

[Brother Rathul]

I had been thinking about starting a chaos space marine army, but i don't know which one to choose or rather make a new one. I want something along the lines of "not too crazy" Chaos chapter but still powerful at the same time. Any suggestions?

[Precentor James]

I like the World Eaters, but I think that might fall under your category of "Too Crazy". What I would recommend then is Thousand Sons. Not too crazy, you can use Ahriman for some tough spell support. Nice paint.

 

This is just an idea though. Keep in mind that the best thing to do with advice is ignore it.

[Brother-of-Absolution]

How about the Red Corsairs, that’s not to crazy, basically just chaos pirates. Or if you want one of the original legions how about Iron Warriors, a generally mutation free army?

[Brother Rathul]

Thanks that sounds good. I particularly have like all the chapters mentioned. Any advice for a new chaos player?

[Brother Rathul]

And what can these chapters provide for firepower??? Besides land raiders/ predators.

[Zeruel]

Whatever any other "Legion" (not Chapter) can bring to the table. Not sure how familiar you are with Chaos Marines but there is absolutely no rules difference whatsoever between any Legion or Warband. There is Codex Chaos Marines and so long as you can justify it to yourself you can use whatever the heck you want in the enitre codex and paint it any Legion colours if you so please.

[Brother Rathul]

ok, so could I make chaos scouts or landspeeders?

[Zeruel]

ok, so could I make chaos scouts or landspeeders?

 

No as neither of those options are in the Chaos Codex.

[Brother Rathul]

Well what do you suggest to use then?

[Zeruel]

Have you even read through the Chaos Codex? I suggest you do that before anything else.

[Brother Rathul]

I want an army basically capable of being able to fight any threat. horde, fast attack, tanks, and such.

 

Indeed I have, It's right here with me at the moment.

[IronWinds]

No, that you couldn't do. What he meant is that we all share all the same units. An IW and NL list could look exactly the same. No landspeeders.

 

 

Less crazy= Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion... maybe thousand sons, but they have some of the craziest demons & they are a very hard army to play.

Shooting= Iron Warriors

 

 

However your a Fist player. That can be a reason to start IWs or to not start IWs depending on you. IWs and IFs have a huge rivalry. If I started a marine army it would be IFs, because I like the idea of two armies that hate each other. Its also less fluff to learn because a lot of their fluff overlaps(biggest battles were against each other). And my final reason was that I got good at painting IFs because I have dead IFs on so many of my bases. On the other hand it could be a reason to completely avoid IWs. Thats up to you. And as much as I HATE him, you could always do a Honsue army. Honsue is an IW warsmith that has Imperial Fist geneseed, the geneseed was taken from an Imperial fist at the Iron Cage battle.

 

 

What can we provide for firepower?

 

Obliterators: The most versatile shooting unit in the game, hands down, no one comes close to an obliterator's versatility. Anti-tank=TL melta, multi melta, lascannon. Anti-infantry=plasma cannon, TL plasmagun, TL flame thrower. Fluffy unit for IWs, not so fluffy for the cult armies.

 

Defilers= basically a faster moving dreadnought with a battlecannon... whats the downside?

 

Termicide= deepstrike a few terminators with combi meltas or combi plasma. Cheap and effective at killing expensive enemy units.

 

Predators and LRs are alright, but I tend to favor oblits and defilers more.

 

 

Hope that helps.

[Spaakl Daakli]

Welcome to the Dark Side.

 

The advice given to you so far has been spot on: get a copy of the Chaos Codex and do some reading. Other than armies based on the 'Cult' legions (we're talking Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Emperor's Children & even Death Guard here), Chaos Generica basically rules, and actually building distinctly themed armies of the Undivided legions here is a noble pursuit of the fluff bunnies here (and I say that as a term of endearment & respect).

 

Chaos is markedly different to [spit] loyalist [/spit] :) Space Marines, so do yourself a favour & research your troop options & background.

 

And we are all subject to the vagaries of the Dice Gods, so expect no point+click unbeatable army list here.

[Brother Rathul]

Whoops, thanks guys for the info, i didn't want a kill everything army lists just an idead for a good all around one. the IW sound as though an intresting prospect I I will definetly look into all these legions.

 

IronWinds-thanks that sounds just like I was thinking of!

Spaakl Daakli- thank you for the welcome

[Precentor James]

Yay! It's always great when another Chaos player joins! Let us know what you choose.

[Brother Rathul]

Thanks I'll let you guys know as soon as possible.

[Sception]

Chaos Marines are, in general, an army of short ranged mechanized infantry with an assortment of specialized support. 5th edition heavily favors troops units (they're the only unit type that can claim objectives), and chaos marines are particularly blessed in that department with three excellent troops choices: Basic Chaos Marines, Berzerkers, and Plague Marines. All of these units share the common trait of being very points efficient for the mix of stats and basic equipment you get out of them, delivering a lot of punch for the point. All of these units favor short range, and as such rhinos are pretty essential to get your troops into the thick of things faster.

 

Berzerkers: generally fielded in units of 8 to 10 with fist-armed champ in a rhino, just get 'em into close combat and watch them tear your opponents up. Excellent character retinues, if you choose to field an IC.

 

Plague Marines: generally fielded in units of 8 to 10 with a pair of special weapons and a fist-armed champ in a rhino. Plagues are extremely resilient for their points cost, able to take a lot of punishment whether in melee or at range. With bolters and a pair of melta or plasma guns, they can pack quite a punch in the shooting phase, but only once you get them within 12" of their target. In close combat their durability, pistols, and fistichamp will wear down most enemies. Like berzerkers, they make great retinues. Overall Plague Marines are generally considered our most points-efficient and all-around effective troop squads - although their Nurgle-aligned nature makes them inappropriate choices in some army themes.

 

Chaos Space Marines: generally fielded in units of 8 to 10 with a pair of special weapons and a fist-armed champ in a rhino. Chaos Space marines are the cheaper, less durable versions of plague marines. Still very efficient, and the extra numbers you can get can be very useful. Their unaligned nature also makes them a better fit for more army themes. These are an excellent unit, and I've personally had great success with an army based on four units of these - two with pair flamers and two with pair meltaguns. Their icon options let you customize their abilities, but the icons other then undivided are generally not worth the points cost.

 

 

 

Once you've got your strong foundation of rock hard and hard hitting mechanized infantry, you can start looking at the assorted support units Chaos Marines have to offer. The more efficient of these are generally thought to be:

 

Daemon Prince: generally run with wings to keep up with your rhinos.. After that they're generally given the Mark of Slaanesh and the Lash psychic power (especially dangerous for enemy infantry, though generally considered pretty cheesy), or the Warptime psychic power and either the mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch (for durability). These guys are very points efficient for their starting stats, and having a monstrous creature or two does add some nice variety to a army primarily made up of marine bodies.

 

Chaos Terminators: though other setups can be effective, the most popular way to run them is in squads of three, with three combi weapons and maybe a power fist. These units are cheap and expendable enough to risk deep striking into enemy territory, trying to land behind tanks to take them out with combi-meltas, or near dangerous enemy units to hose them down with plasma. The single fist is there to make them too dangerous to ignore even after they've expended their combi-weapons. I like to include a heavy flamer in the units as well, just for the extra options it presents, but that's just a personal choice.

 

Obliterators: Generally thought to be our strongest long range option, Obliterators are the kings of versatility, one weapon to take down any target. They're expensive, but still efficient given the kind of versatility they represent. If your opponent doesn't have any good targets to shoot at at the start of the game, or if the terrain is such that there aren't any good firing lines, remember that you can always deep strike them to take advantage of their twin linked weaponry. Only do this with single oblits, though, they're generally too expensive to risk otherwise. 2 to 4 is a good number of these guys to take in a generic army, although their inability to take marks or icons means they aren't the best fit for some themes.

 

Defilers: AV13 is much tougher these days then it used to be, and consequently Defilers have been somewhat improved. Between their battle cannon and their potentially high number of ranged attacks, these monsters can be pretty versatile, and they aren't very expensive for what you get out of them - generally one defiler is about the same cost as a pair of oblits. Frequently that pair of oblits will be a better choice overall, but the Defiler is still a very strong choice, especially given the amount of tank armor you're already likely to be running.

 

 

 

Most of the other choices in the chaos marine book are also good options, if perhaps not quite as points efficient as the units I've listed above. Thousand sons can be deadly when shooting at marines, but are rather pricey for what they do if you're fighting orcs or guard. Noise marines can be the other way around. Havocs are a strong unit whether loaded up with heavy weapons or riding in a rhino with four specials, but are generally overshadowed by the more versatile oblits or the scoring chaos & plague marines. The Land Raider is a very tough nut to crack, but is also an awful lot of points in one place. Raptors and Bikes can be fast and effective, but also feel a little pricey for what they bring to the table. The summoned daemons, both lesser and greater, do have their uses, but they can feel a little bland, and they definitely have their drawbacks as well (lesser daemons paying a lot of points for their stat line, and greater daemons costing you a valuable champion). Chosen can be tooled for any number of jobs, and can pull off some impressive tricks with the outflank rules. The Chaos Lords and Sorcerers are decent heroes, if not as points efficient as the the Daemon Prince. Vindicators and Predators can be effective hammers for a heavily mechanized force. There are a few units I'd recommend you avoid, though:

 

Possessed: highly unreliable and very pricey, it's hard to justify these guys when compared to Berzerkers or even basic chaos marines. The models are great, though, and make excellent unit champions for any of the more daemonic legions (particularly Black Legion, Night Lords, and World Eaters)

 

Dreadnought: suffers from some self-defeating special rules, and are pretty slow to boot. They can be ok, but you're generally better off running defilers if you want to try a walker.

 

Chaos Spawn: bad. Just really bad. Again, nice models, decent conversion fodder, but don't bring them to the table as they're own unit.

 

 

 

Theming your Chaos Marines:

 

The safest theme, as with any army, is the homebrew. Come up with a unique background for your Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord, or Sorcerer, and then build their personal warband of mercenaries and cast-offs. Then you can field the units you like without too much fear of being called unfluffy (try not to mix Khorne and Slaanesh or Nurgle and Tzeentch options in the same list), and you can pick any color scheme you like. If you want something more established and recognizable, though, here are some of the existing factions in the fluff, along with a few units that you'll want to pick up or avoid to go with them. Note that there are no rules at the moment preventing you from taking whatever you like in whatever faction you pick, but it's quite possible that GW could change that back in the future, so you'll want to pick a faction that favors the units you want to use in their fluff.

 

Black Legion: Uses anything and everything in the book, including mixing multiple marks in the same army. While anything goes depending on the individual tastes of a given commander, the legion in general favors terminators, possessed, defilers, and undivided/unaligned heroes. The special character Abaddon is the leader of this Legion.

 

Iron Warriors: Pretty strictly avoids aligned units and summoned/bound daemons, favors obliteraters, vehicles, and anything useful in seige combat, particularly big guns and hardened close combat troops (but not berzerkers - again they generally avoid aligned units).

 

Word Bearers: Worship Chaos as a pantheon rather then individual powers, favors the use of summoned and bound daemons and possessed, generally avoids units dedicated to a single god. Daemon Princes, unaligned Chaos Lords with Daemon Weapons, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons, and Chaos Marines are all appropriate choices.

 

Alpha Legion: infiltrate imperial society to disrupt the Empire from within, like the Iron Warriors they generally avoid aligned units, although they do make some use of summoned daemons as a tool for spreading confusion. Chosen (whether infiltrating or outflanking) and deep striking units are especially fitting, as are Bikes and other units that let you employ shifting battlefield tactics. You should also strive for versatility, redundancy, and stand-alone effectiveness in your units - don't put all your eggs in one basket.

 

Night Lords: Night Lords focus on lightning fast raids that spread fear and confusion. They favor Raptors, Bikes, outflanking chosen, Possessed, and deep striking units. They also make limited use of summoned daemons, but generally avoid units dedicated to a particular god. How strict they are about that varies depending on the individual background source, but if you want to make heavy use of aligned units, I'd go for something else.

 

Red Corsairs: Post-Heresy Traitors, the Red Corsairs have limited access to some of the legion units - ie, the specifically aligned units, obliterators, and defilers should be generally avoided. Daemon units should also be downplayed, though not necessarily eschewed altogether. Units that have equivalents in the generic space marine book are the best options, including terminators, dreadnoughts, chaos marines, bikes, raptors, havocs, and assorted tanks. The Special Character Huron Blackheart is the leader of this faction.

 

Thousand Sons: A legion dedicated to Tzeentch, all are most of your units should have the icon of tzeentch. Thousand Sons units should also feature prominently, which is a challenge, as they're not generally the most points efficient unit option - though they're far from bad. Units with marks other then that of Tzeentch should be avoided altogether. The special character Ahriman is a prominent figure in this faction.

 

World Eaters: A legion dedicated to Khorn, all or most of your units should have the icon of Khorn. Berzerker units should also feature prominently, which is perfectly fine, as they're a great squad. Units with marks or icons other then that of Khorn should be avoided altogether. You'll have some trouble finding on-theme ranged support - predators and defilers are generally good bets. The special character Khârn the Betrayer is a prominent figure in this faction

 

Death Guard: A legion dedicated to Nurgle, all or most of your units should have the icon of Nurgle. Plague marine units should feature prominently, which is great, as they're one of the best units in the codex. Units with marks or icons other then that of Nurgle should be avoided altogether. This can be tricky, as the icon of nurgle is very pricey, and makes most of the units you would put it on much less efficient, even if they are tougher. The special character Typhus is a prominent figure in this faction.

 

Emperor's Children: A legion dedicated to Slaanesh, all or most of your units should have the icon of Slaanesh. Noise Marine units should feature prominently, which can be good or bad. Decked out with sonic weapons, they're a potent mobile anti-infantry unit, but they become very expensive very quickly. On the other hand, if you don't give them much sonic upgrades, then they're relatively cheap fearless Init 5 chaos marines, but don't have access to some of the better special weapons. All in all they're ok, but picking the right balance of equipment is tricky, and if you're looking to run them you should ask someone who has more experience with them then I. As with the other aligned factions, units dedicated to other gods are against theme. This legion also has access to the extremely effective 'Lash of Torment' power - though using it might lose you some friends. The special Character Lucius the Eternal is a prominent figure in this faction.

 

 

 

My own chaos marines, by way of example, are from the Black Legion. While I have theme-appropriate access to anything in the codex (with the exception of special characters from other sub-factions), my personal preference is for undivided units. My standard 1500 point army runs four squads of 10 Chaos Space Marines - each with a rhino, icon of chaos glory, and champion with power fist. Two of these units have a pair of meltaguns, and the other two have a pair of flamers. Supporting this foundation are an Undivided Daemon Prince with wings and warp time, two squads of three chaos terminators with power fist, two combi meltaguns, and a heavy flamer each, a pair of obliterators, and a defiler. The terminators and defiler in particular fit my chosen Legion's fluff. The army has a strong foundation of short ranged mechanized infantry, with decent long ranged and deep striking support to disrupt enemy threats. I avoid some of the more common CSM options (no berzerkers, plague marines, or lash) in order to stay in line with my more casual gaming group, and to fit my personal preferences. The army is pretty solid, overall, and has done well for me, while still presenting some tactical flexibility. At higher points values I start including some more varied unit options - including summoned daemons, a second defiler, more terminators, aligned units, and in particularly large games even Abaddon himself. The fluff for my legion says they favor possessed, but I don't like the rules for them, so I use possessed models as unit champs to convey that aspect of the fluff.

 

A more generic 'powergaming' Chaos Marine list - if you're gaming group is more competitive - would likely start with two units of 8 to 10 plague marines in rhinos and two units of 8 to 10 berzerkers in rhinos. Add to this a pair of winged daemon princes with either the mark of slaanesh and the lash or the mark of Nurgle and warp time. Support these with one or two units of 3 deep striking terminators with 3 combi-meltaguns and a power fist, and round it out with as many obliterators as fit in the remaining points, distributed in as small units as possible (maybe two units of one and one unit of two). Such an army is relatively durable and hard hitting, and has decent support and a number of useful tricks it can pull off. The down-sides are that it's only fluff appropriate for homebrew or black legion themed armies, and that it's a pretty common setup, and depending on the disposition of your gaming group you may or may not have opponents complaining about your running a boring or beardy list - though really the list does have enough variety of units that I don't personally consider it that boring, and it isn't even all that cheesy or powerful in the current 40k environment, but there you go.

[the jeske]

chaos has two lists . either a LR rush one with 2 LRs 2 DPS 2 zerkers and a rhino squad.

Or normal mecha with2x7 pms 2x8 zerkers 3x2 oblits and 2 DPs. all other lists are either versions of those two only weaker[like using csm/1ksons/NM etc instead of zerkers/pms] or are tier 2[so not very good and even worse if your just starting to play] . the tier 2 lists are chaos zilla 2DPS 3 zerker units in rhino 3 defilers and the NM water warrior . Most of the time chaos is the way you paint your models and not how the game play or unit used as we dont realy have viable FA or elite and all the other slots [troops/hvy support/HQ] have one dominant entry [or two in the case of troops].

[Brother Rathul]

I guess i shall continue this topic here. i am new to this form so please forgive my accidents. I think I would like an Iron Warriors competitive army.

[Brother Rathul]

Can you add death guard to that and call them Iron warriors.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Yes. Call them cyber-daemonic enhancements.

 

"Oh noes but that's using counts as!"

 

Haters gonna hate. But you'll have an opportunity to pull some wicked sweet models.

[Sception]

You can. Just be aware that it's not the fluffiest choice, and it's entirely possible that the next chaos codex may have some brand of legion rules again that would leave you with a unit you couldn't use. 'Course, that's generally to be expected, anyway.

 

Any particular reason you want to play Iron Warriors as opposed to a home brew warband? Choose your own colors, and pick whatever you want without worrying about going against fluff, it's generally the best way to go. It's not like Iron Warriors have anything they can select that other Chaos Marine factions can't - they don't even have their own special character.

 

Really, the only reason to choose Iron Warriors over a homebrew chaos warband is that you like the fluff, and if you're only playing them for the fluff, then why would you want unfluffy units?

 

 

Again, though, there's nothing in the current book preventing you from doing so. You'll get some complaints, but that's about all.

[Brother Rathul]

I see your point.

[Argon]

Honestly, you can justify using a lot using counts-as. They're not plague marines, they're just Chaos Marines with extra armour. Or, if you do go with Iron Warriors, you can call them "cyber-daemonic enhancements" like Imperialis said.

Berzerkers, meanwhile, are fluffy for Iron Warriors, just not in large numbers.

 

So yeah. I personally dislike competitive lists, mostly because they sacrifice fluff for efficency. But if that's what you want, go for it.

[Brother Rathul]

Is there a compramise?