Assault Squad vs Vanguard Squad

[ImperialReaper]

I have recently been at the store trying to decide what to buy: an assault squad or a Sternguard Squad.

 

I want something which is mobile to tie up some long range units into close combat - for instance devastators, cyborgs or those nasty tyranid units (those who look loke flying snakes with those strength 10 long range shot).

 

Assault Squad 5 man costs me 100 - sternguard 120

Despite from being an elite choice the Sternguard seems much more pointeffective for ne simple reason: Every model has 2 attacks not only the sergeant. This means on 5 man squads you have 6 Attacks with an Assault Squad and 10 Attacks with Sternguards. Attacking will make it 15. Since what I want them to do is: Jump in, attack and hopefully kill, jump on to the next one - the amount of attacks seems to be critical for folfillign their task. In my opinion this is realy worth those 20 extra points.

 

Since I am still prety new and I dont have any experience using jump troops I would value you oppinion.

 

Regards

Tony

 

EDIT:

I realised I mixed up Sternguard an Vanguard....

[2500kgm3]

I'd say for that role no, sternguard is not more point-effective because of:

 

Their assault capabilities: Every assault squad marine carrying 2 close combat weapons gets +1 attack, so they are on par with the sternguard here, If I recall correctly, Sternguard do not carry two close combat weapons.

 

Their mobility: Assault squad gets either a discount on their dedicated transport, or rockets on their backs to run towards your enemies with them. Sternguard would have to buy a rhino or razorback at full price.

 

Sternguard are much more versatile and can fulfill many roles, but close combat is not their main strength, since they rely on their special ammunition.

[Roachboy]

i think he means vanguard squad? If so you need to pay extra for the jump packs, which makes them too expensive for me...

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I used to run assault squads until i realised for the same points you can take sternguard.

and sternguard will beat assault squad every time. vengeance rounds, hellfire rounds, lights out

not to mention they're much more versatile/efficient and will live longer

 

Sternguard are the better option, clearly.

[Gothical]

I used to run assault squads until i realised for the same points you can take sternguard.

and sternguard will beat assault squad every time. vengeance rounds, hellfire rounds, lights out

not to mention they're much more versatile/efficient and will live longer

 

Sternguard are the better option, clearly.

 

I would disagree utterly.

 

If the Sternguard Squad gets assaulted, it cannot use it's special rounds. Same nunber of attacks, same number of "special" CCWs, but more expensive.

 

They won't live longer - they're still T4, 3+, 1W. The same things that kill Assault Marines will kill Sternguard, but Sternguard have the issue that they are slower, so can't benefit as easily from terrain on the board (and if they run they can't shoot). Particularly if mounted in a Drop Pod - they tend to get one round of fire, then die.

 

@ OP:

 

I'd still take the Assault Marines.

 

The Sternguard need either a Drop Pod or a Rhino to be mobile, the Assault Marines get Jump Packs for free - so you're really comparing 160pts of Sternguard (5+ DP) to 100pts of Assault Marines, before any sort of Weapon upgrades are taken. The Assault Marines have the same mobility as the Sternguard, with the ability to Assault at the end of their move, for cheaper. They can also Deepstrike if you so desire, though that's not the best option for Assault Marines. Additionally, the Sternguard's transport can be shot from under them if they're in a Rhino/Razorback, and with a Drop Pod they are of limited movement once they land. With your target travelling at lest 12" a turn, and the Pod at the mercy of Scatter, they can be left in the dust very quickly.

 

The big, flying Snake things that you want to combat can move 12" a turn - Sternguard aren't going to catch them in an assault, and if they're walking around on foot then they're likely to get charged by something nasty, or take a couple of templates and go down.

 

You could give the Assault Marines a Plasma Pistol, despite common wisdom against it - the extra Strength and AP will help against the enemy monster, and it doesn't cost you any "standard" attacks if you get engaged by the little gribblies.

 

Either unit would need a Power Fist - but it may be worth shelling out for a Thunder Hammer on the Assault Squad Sergeant. With the likelyhood of him living you knock the enemy MC down to I1 even if you don't kill it, enabling him to kill it the next turn (even if it is a "pyrrhic" victory).

 

I think that, with the role you have in mind, I think the Assault Marines will suit you better. The Sternguard are very powerful with their shots, but if they get engaged in combat then they lose their one advantage over the Assault Marines - and this being a Tyranid army, they *will* get engaged at some point if you are using them as a forwards unit.

[ImperialReaper]

i think he means vanguard squad? If so you need to pay extra for the jump packs, which makes them too expensive for me...

 

Indeed! Sorry for the confusion, but I am still waiting for a reference list for all warhammer terms between english and german....

 

I assume in this case you have to pay 15 points for each model to equip them with jumppacks?

[Gothical]

Ah, ok.

 

I'd go with the Assault Squad.

 

Vanguard with Thunder Hammer, Jump Pack and 1 Plasma Pistol is 205pts

Assault Squad with Thunder Hammer, Jump Packs and 1 Plasma Pistol is 145pts

 

The 60pts difference nets you 5 extra attacks - not really worth it IMO.

 

Of course you can make the Vanguard better (but more expensive) for the role with extra Power Fists/Hammers and stuff, but that will really send the cost sky-high. They are a useful unit, but I guess it depends on how much of your force you want to dedicate to being especially equipped to take on those flying beasties (they're only T5, 4+ Sv if I remember rightly).

 

Basically, the Vanguard cost more, but would be more useful against a wide range of other foes. The Assault Squad give you a dedicated unit to take on that creature, and still be relatively handy against select units in other armies all for a lot cheaper.

[Schultzhoffen]

The problem here is that Assault Marines are mediocre at best. Vanguard are too expensive for what they do, therefore, I'd not bother with them as they'll die as readily and cost much more. They are a one shot item (heroic intervention) and then open to shooting/counter assault.

 

Aside from assault TERMINATORS, Space Marines are more of a shooty/counter attack army. Unless you're Blood Angels, Wolves or Templars, stick to shooting. In which case, a Sternguard Squad in a rhino is a better bet (but more expensive).

 

However, a 5 man assault squad makes a useful (if mediocre) counterattack/speedebump unit which abuys the rest of your army more shooting time.

 

Codex Marines will not out assault dedicated assault armies but they can outshoot then counterattack the snot out of them.

 

In other words, take Sternguard AND Assault Marines if you can afford them.

[JamesI]

To lessen the confusion, I've changed the title of the thread so it says Vanguard.

 

I would generally go with Assault Squads. Vangaurd are really expensive, best if you don't give them jump packs and have them ride in a rhino or Land Raider.

[Arnil]

I play my games with an idea of an anchoring unit. All combat and tactics revolve around helping this unit. This unit is 10 vanguards which make up a fifth of my points. I deep stike Suicideal Sternguards to soften up the heretics then obliterate Daemons of Slannesh even with my Vanguards!

 

For about 600 points you can get, on the charge, 40 power weaponed attacks which reroll to wound. And it isn't a Vanguard without Jumppacks imo! Yep! I have dual lightning claws! on EVERYONE. Run them with a jumppacking chaplain and you reroll to hit as well!

[ImperialReaper]

I play my games with an idea of an anchoring unit. All combat and tactics revolve around helping this unit. This unit is 10 vanguards which make up a fifth of my points. I deep stike Suicideal Sternguards to soften up the heretics then obliterate Daemons of Slannesh even with my Vanguards!

 

For about 600 points you can get, on the charge, 40 power weaponed attacks which reroll to wound. And it isn't a Vanguard without Jumppacks imo! Yep! I have dual lightning claws! on EVERYONE. Run them with a jumppacking chaplain and you reroll to hit as well!

 

Sounds very hardcore to me, but also sounds like its seriously gets the job done.

But in games of 3000 points investing 600 points into Vanguards is a whole different strory than in 1750 points or even 1000.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I play my games with an idea of an anchoring unit. All combat and tactics revolve around helping this unit. This unit is 10 vanguards which make up a fifth of my points. I deep stike Suicideal Sternguards to soften up the heretics then obliterate Daemons of Slannesh even with my Vanguards!

 

For about 600 points you can get, on the charge, 40 power weaponed attacks which reroll to wound. And it isn't a Vanguard without Jumppacks imo! Yep! I have dual lightning claws! on EVERYONE. Run them with a jumppacking chaplain and you reroll to hit as well!

 

 

that sounds like a very effective and violent set up you have there and im a bit jealous! lol how did you get all the lightning claws to model this? im very interested and curious as I'm trying to build a uber assault unit myself for my Ultras, as an alternative to always running my th/ss terms

[Arnil]

E-bay my brothers! I also bought some space wolf guys off E-bay and butchered them for parts. Mwhahaha! I run White Scars and needed Mongolian thingys like fur. I keep helmets on everyone so i dont worry about heads too much.

 

If you want something specific from a sprue, anything really, Ebay is sent by the emperor i swear!

[Velkairiwyth]

Ive used the elite assaulty troops once. They done awesome - deep striking and getting off a Heroic intervention and wiping out a genestealer squad (10 nids) right down to the broodlord with only one casualty (lucky dicing ftw) - but realised after that I didnt pay the extra for the jump packs... Ive never used them since.

 

If I was to use them I think I would go for the Blood-angels tactic of slapping a squad of 5 and a char into a Razorback, and keeping them safe until I get to a target, or a unit trundles up thats within counter-attack range, but tbh - they are as squishy as regular assault troops, and fighting any specialised assault unit your likely to be striking last and not benefiting from that extra attack. (ergo, attack their weakness - you want to get their shooty things with this unit unless your wanting an expensive speed bump - but since you cant assault from a moving razorback... you will just get mowed down trying to get up close) I pass on them nowadays, but thats just me.

 

/ramble :)

[ImperialReaper]

Ive used the elite assaulty troops once. They done awesome - deep striking and getting off a Heroic intervention and wiping out a genestealer squad (10 nids) right down to the broodlord with only one casualty (lucky dicing ftw) - but realised after that I didnt pay the extra for the jump packs... Ive never used them since.

 

Um question on that - maybe its just some kind of fluff, but can you deepstrike if you don`t have the jump packs.

As far as I have red, they jump out of a thunderhawk and use treir jumppacks to slow down the fall - so I thoght they were unable to deepstrike without the jumppacks.

[Gothical]

If I was to use them I think I would go for the Blood-angels tactic of slapping a squad of 5 and a char into a Razorback, and keeping them safe until I get to a target, or a unit trundles up thats within counter-attack range, but tbh - they are as squishy as regular assault troops, and fighting any specialised assault unit your likely to be striking last and not benefiting from that extra attack. (ergo, attack their weakness - you want to get their shooty things with this unit unless your wanting an expensive speed bump - but since you cant assault from a moving razorback... you will just get mowed down trying to get up close) I pass on them nowadays, but thats just me.

 

/ramble :)

 

That *can* still work, provided they're supported right.

 

Basically, dump the Razorback/Rhino sideways and use it as a shield, using another unit (Tactical Squad in Rhino/Razorback, Predator, Vindicator etc) to cover the flank to stop the enemy getting reliable LOS to them.

 

It's what I do with my Assault Marines in a Rhino (Salamanders, so I frown on Jump Packs), and it usually works. Sometimes doesn't, sometimes does.

 

With that in mind, I'd suggest only taking a few Special Weapons in the unit. A Sergeant with Relic Blade, 2 guys with Lightning Claws (paired) and the rest mooks - maybe adding in the odd Power Fist if you are going up a unit size (Razorback > Rhino basically). Keeps the cost down but mows through most enemy units like a woodchipper. Even if they die, they tend to provide a brilliant distraction.

 

Damnit, now I want to upgrade my Assault Marines to Vanguard :(

[Velkairiwyth]

Tactics are key eh? I admit I am tempted to give them a whirl again sometime - I usually bawk at the points cost and pick soemthing else (like assault termies) but indeed - a distraction can be as good as anything else :) Proxy Kills FTW? :(

[Race Bannon]

It is my opinion that the Vanguard, compared with another unit, are just not worth it no matter what.

 

BUT ...

 

I still use them every once in a while. And they are not a stand alone unit. You must use these in conjunction with a plan and a goal or hope on some luck.

 

I only buy 5, with Jump Packs and one Lightning Claw each. Three attacks on the charge with re-rolling power weapons is enough for me. I don't use them against tanks and wound allocation is a moot point: they're all the same. Pair them with a locator beacon (from DP or Scout Bikes) makes them even better.

 

Comparing them against the Assault Squad is fair ... but limiting the VG weaponry to weapons only the Assault Squad can have defeats their purpose: a fast unit that can have the exotic weapons available to the Veterans of the 1st Company. If you are going to use the VG, then give them the ability to do something the Assault Squad can't do.

 

And for the love of the gods ... do not use the Vanguard in every game. They're really not worth that investment.

[Wildfire]

For me, 5th edition killed the jump pack. But vanguard especially are just too expensive for what they do. If they were elites instead of FA, I might consider running a few in a rhino/razorback once in a while. But my FA slots are eaten up way too fast for Vanguard to ever be considered.

 

Ive used the elite assaulty troops once. They done awesome - deep striking and getting off a Heroic intervention and wiping out a genestealer squad (10 nids) right down to the broodlord with only one casualty (lucky dicing ftw) - but realised after that I didnt pay the extra for the jump packs... Ive never used them since.

 

Um question on that - maybe its just some kind of fluff, but can you deepstrike if you don`t have the jump packs.

As far as I have red, they jump out of a thunderhawk and use treir jumppacks to slow down the fall - so I thoght they were unable to deepstrike without the jumppacks.

 

He's saying he thought they came with jump packs. Once he realized he had to buy them too, he decided they were too expensive.

[Mustalid]

Vanguard are good, except that they are expensive, and strong, and only as tough as an assault squad - so they have a big target on their heads and it will hurt when they die. Take the assault squad. Take advantage of terrain to sneak about and then assault. They'll do fine, especially if they have flamers. Shrike ads 195 points, but you now have fleet and can infiltrate next to their fire base. O yeah - he's an animal in close combat to!