Victory?

[Conor The Great]

Was the Heresy a vitory for mankind?

Based on basic Stats it dosnt look good for the Loyalists does it?

Emperor-dead

Ferrus Manus-dead

Sanguinius-dead leaving his entire gene line cursed

Dorn-dead

Corax-dissapeared

Gulliman aka PapaSmurf-in stasis with a lethal wound

The Lion-sleeping?

The Great Khan-M.I.A

Russ-M.I.A

Vulkan-eh im not sure.

 

Now look at the out come of the Heresy for the Traitors

Horus-Uberdead(sadly)

Fulgrim-Deamon Prince

Night Haunter-killed by assasin

Angron-Deamon Prince

Lorgar-Deamon Prince

Magnus-Deamon Prince

Mortarion-Deamon Prince

Perturbo-you guessed it Deamon Prince

Alpharius-dead(or half dead ;) )

 

So what i'm saying is that the Heresy was a bit of a one sided victory really wasnt it?

5 deaths(including Gulliman for arguements sake)and 5 M.I.As for the Loyalists

and 3 deaths and 6 immortals of immence power.

 

What do you guy think?

[Legatus]

Was the Heresy a vitory for mankind?

Based on basic Stats it dosnt look good for the Loyalists does it?

Emperor-dead

Ferrus Manus-dead

Sanguinius-dead leaving his entire gene line cursed

Dorn-dead

Corax-dissapeared

Gulliman aka PapaSmurf-in stasis with a lethal wound

The Lion-sleeping?

The Great Khan-M.I.A

Russ-M.I.A

Vulkan-eh im not sure.

The ones I marked red were not results of the Horus Heresy. Those events happened after the heresy, in some cases decades or even a century later. Jonson died immediately after the Heresy, but the turning of half of his Chapter was not related to Horus's treason and the galaxy spanning "Horus Heresy".

 

Other than that, the goal of Horus was to take over mankind. That did not happen. Did it cost the Imperium dearly? Yes it did. None the less Horus was defeated at Terra and his Legions chased into the Eye of Terror.

[Conor The Great]

Ok well all i can say is that they all were killed/M.I.A during the Purging of Traitor Forces from imperial Space which was a direct consequence of.....you guessed it the Heresy,but yeah i get your point but in the end the Victor has ended up loseing its greatest heros whereas the losers retain many of them(although you could argue that they dont do a whole lot for powerfull deamons)

[calgar101]

Horus lost, Chaos won.

[Legatus]

Ok well all i can say is that they all were killed/M.I.A during the Purging of Traitor Forces from imperial Space which was a direct consequence of.....you guessed it the Heresy

Dorn and Guilliman were "killed" decades later during Chaos incursions. Unless you want to count all further attacks of the Traitor Legions as part of the Horus Heresy they had nothing to do with it. As far as I am concerned, the "Horus Heresy" ended after the Battle for terra. The war against Chaos and the Traitor legions rages on, though.

The rebelling Dark Angels were not related to the Horus Heresy, though of course the same dark forces were at work here. Corax or Khan disappeared while pursuing Xenos into the webway portals, I don't remember which one it was. The other one and Vulkan's whereabouts are unknown, so we cannot really say that they were or were not related to the Horus Heresy.

Russ went on some self appointed mission. I thought I remembered it was about finding one of his lost Brothers (or maybe that was Khan or Corax), but it may have been some Mission related to the 134th Company or the Emperor. If it was the latter then it may have been motivated by the events of the Heresy.

[Hobo Willie]

From the perspective of the Traitor Legions, the war still isn't over.

[MCCCXXXVII]

From the perspective of the Traitor Legions, the war still isn't over.

 

Also, all of those deaths would most likely not have happened if the Heresy had not happened.

[Rayuzaki]

The way I've always thought of it is that Horus lost the battle, but Chaos won the war.

[Walter Payton]

The way I've always thought of it is that Horus lost the battle, but Chaos won the war.

 

I would say that the Imperium won a major tactical victory, but that the strategic implications are still unresolved.

[Walter Payton]

The way I've always thought of it is that Horus lost the battle, but Chaos won the war.

 

I would say that the Imperium won a major tactical victory, but that the strategic implications are still unresolved.

[stinkenheim]

iirc russ went searching for the 'Tree of Life' a mysterious source of power that he believed would heal the emperor.

 

don't forget that whilst the traitor legions have more primarchs alive than the loyalists, the loyalists also have far more marines, the might of the imperial guard and the Inquisiton and its chamber millitants. its not like the imperium is under protected. the traitor legions surely have a hard time replacing losses both in terms of marines and chapter personnel like serfs.

whilst the traiotr legions have the lost and the damned, cultists and heretics and daemons to bolster their forces i still believe the imperium is in a healthy position and as has been shown over the countless centuries more than able to repulse the chaos incursions.

whilst the chaos primarchs are powerful its hard to see how they would be able to swing the balance in the traitor legions favour.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

iirc russ went searching for the 'Tree of Life' a mysterious source of power that he believed would heal the emperor.

 

don't forget that whilst the traitor legions have more primarchs alive than the loyalists, the loyalists also have far more marines, the might of the imperial guard and the Inquisiton and its chamber millitants. its not like the imperium is under protected. the traitor legions surely have a hard time replacing losses both in terms of marines and chapter personnel like serfs.

whilst the traiotr legions have the lost and the damned, cultists and heretics and daemons to bolster their forces i still believe the imperium is in a healthy position and as has been shown over the countless centuries more than able to repulse the chaos incursions.

whilst the chaos primarchs are powerful its hard to see how they would be able to swing the balance in the traitor legions favour.

 

what russ is doing is open to debate. ALOT of debate. some say is is hunting the traitor primarchs, some say lookinf gor his frien the lion, some say looking for the golden apples to restore the empeor.

 

and one major disaadvantage the Imperium has is it is being constantly invaded from numerous sides. the orks, both types of eldar, tau, nids and necrons are all attacking them. while in a straight out imp vs chaos i would give the edge to the imperium (but not by much at all), it will never be a straight up fight.

 

and as talos is told by abaddon in soul hunter, unless you are privy to the meetings of abaddon and his war marshals, how can you say he has failed? the gothic war got him a incredible powerful starship, the 13th crusade was tasked with destroying cadia, etc. he is fighting the long war, a few million lives mean nothing to him.

 

WLK

[Rain]

what russ is doing is open to debate. ALOT of debate. some say is is hunting the traitor primarchs, some say lookinf gor his frien the lion, some say looking for the golden apples to restore the empeor.

 

and one major disaadvantage the Imperium has is it is being constantly invaded from numerous sides. the orks, both types of eldar, tau, nids and necrons are all attacking them. while in a straight out imp vs chaos i would give the edge to the imperium (but not by much at all), it will never be a straight up fight.

 

and as talos is told by abaddon in soul hunter, unless you are privy to the meetings of abaddon and his war marshals, how can you say he has failed? the gothic war got him a incredible powerful starship, the 13th crusade was tasked with destroying cadia, etc. he is fighting the long war, a few million lives mean nothing to him.

 

WLK

 

In my opinion the Imperium would lose if all of Chaos was united against it. Just like if all of the Orks were united, or if all of the Tyranids in the galaxy bothered to drift Terra's way. The whole point though is that for the most part such things are impossible. The advantage of the Imperium is that it really is only one faction with a comparatively centralized command structure, while Chaos is hundreds of various warbands and cults each of which is generally too selfish to really unite for some lofty common goal especially when there is plunder close at hand.

 

Even during the Heresy when the most charismatic Warmaster the traitors have ever had was still alive, he couldn't keep the Emperor's Children from wandering off and not aiding in the siege, or force the World Eaters to stop wasting troops by charging the wall or the Iron Warriors to focus on strategic objectives instead of things belonging to the Imperial Fists. Add 10,000 years of infighting and fragmentation to that and remove Horus and what you get is even more disordered.

 

That's the whole irony of the 40k setting in my opinion, most of mankind's enemies could destroy the Imperium, they are just too busy killing each other to do so, which means that the ball is basically in their court, if they would ever just get together and form a cohesive military force mankind would be wiped out, but that will probably never happen.

[Legionator]

Six traitors are still alive, but are they doing anything for Chaos? They are all trapped in Eye of Terror. As far as I know, only Angron managed to escape from EoT, but Grey Knights beated him.

[Spacefrisian]

And the Traitor legions have a habbit of fighting against each other instead of with each other.

[Cerelius]

Was the Heresy a vitory for mankind?

Based on basic Stats it dosnt look good for the Loyalists does it?

Emperor-dead

Ferrus Manus-dead

Sanguinius-dead leaving his entire gene line cursed

Dorn-dead

Corax-dissapeared

Gulliman aka PapaSmurf-in stasis with a lethal wound

The Lion-sleeping?

The Great Khan-M.I.A

Russ-M.I.A

Vulkan-eh im not sure.

The ones I marked red were not results of the Horus Heresy. Those events happened after the heresy, in some cases decades or even a century later. Jonson died immediately after the Heresy, but the turning of half of his Chapter was not related to Horus's treason and the galaxy spanning "Horus Heresy".

 

Other than that, the goal of Horus was to take over mankind. That did not happen. Did it cost the Imperium dearly? Yes it did. None the less Horus was defeated at Terra and his Legions chased into the Eye of Terror.

 

Lord Jonson isn't dead, forgive my memory but I once read in one of the early Dark Angel books that his in the deeps of the Rock protected by the Watchers and that his hand is constantly moving in search for his Sword which in my view is what Cypher is bringing before the Emp.

[EPK]

Horus lost, Chaos won.

 

I think this sums it up. Horus lost and the Imperium therefore won that war, but at a great price.

 

But on a larger scale, the Chaos gods got exactly what they wanted. I don't think they really ever cared if Terra fell, no matter the outcome of that struggle they now have hordes of new worshippers and Super-Human Astartes doing their work for them. They don't care who wins or looses, they are beyond that, they simply need instruments to spread their destruction, lust, dark magics and decay into the material world.

 

Now, I wish there was still Primarchs around just as any other, but what if the one of the MIA primarchs did return? He would be a god with no equals in current 40K time. What place would he have?

[Raulmichile]

Now, I wish there was still Primarchs around just as any other, but what if the one of the MIA primarchs did return? He would be a god with no equals in current 40K time. What place would he have?

 

Lord Commander of all Imperial armies (Warmaster) for sure and would have a sit with the High Lords.

[Kizzdougs]

I'm sure one of the mighty Daemon Primarchs would come out of retirement to smite any loyal Primarch returning from their 10,000 year walkabout.

 

Most likely Fulgrim. I'm sure he'd be happy to step up and add to his primarch kill tally. And yes i'am counting Guilliman as dead.

[Piousservant]

I think all we can say for certain is that the Imperium didn't lose.

[Legionator]

Most likely Fulgrim. I'm sure he'd be happy to step up and add to his primarch kill tally. And yes i'am counting Guilliman as dead.

 

It is more possible Fulgrim will defeat his tormenter daemon and return as a noble son of the Emperor. I was wondering what will Inquisition and Terran Lords do in this kind of a situation?

[Pcm979]

The difficulty in determining the Heresy as a victory or loss for either side lies in how you view it. From a purely military perspective, the goal of the Heresy was to place Horus on the Throne of Terra. Obviously, a failure.

 

However, the real goal of the Heresy- as orchestrated by the Ruinous Powers- was to incapacitate the Emperor and prevent him from constructing the Human Webway and ushering in a new Golden Age of Mankind. Horus was just a disposable pawn who played his part well. Indeed, if the visions of the Acuity from Legion are to be trusted, then Horus needed to fail for Chaos to win. From that point of view, the Heresy went perfectly.

[EPK]

Indeed, if the visions of the Acuity from Legion are to be trusted, then Horus needed to fail for Chaos to win. From that point of view, the Heresy went perfectly.

 

I was just about to mention as much. Horus winning would have culminated in the extinction of mankind and the ruinous powers "so heavily invested in humanity, would be extinguished with it."

 

On the other hand, the other outcome, which is obviously the one that has come to pass (at least the first part), is that the the grinding battle between the Imperium and Chaos would create stagnation and decay (how many innocent souls have been lost to hateful warfare over the last 10K years?) which would "would accelerate, continually allowing the Chaos powers to grow and spread their influence..."

 

If there is another "happy ending" arch to the second outcome that the Cabal was unable to see, we do not know, but it does seem as of now, like Pcm979 stated, that for Chaos gods, the Heresy went perfectly.

[Rain]

Most likely Fulgrim. I'm sure he'd be happy to step up and add to his primarch kill tally. And yes i'am counting Guilliman as dead.

 

It is more possible Fulgrim will defeat his tormenter daemon and return as a noble son of the Emperor. I was wondering what will Inquisition and Terran Lords do in this kind of a situation?

 

Yeah this won't happen. Not only because GW wouldn't write that, but also because it doesn't make any sense, Fulgrim betrayed the Emperor before he was possessed by the daemon, and after 10,000 years of being a prisoner inside his own mind, he is by now probably completely insane. Also his multi-armed serpent body is the only one he's got now, and as it's the true form of the daemon that is possessing him, I'm guessing that destroying the daemon would destroy the body and also the "true" Fulgrim that lives inside it.

[Walter Payton]

Most likely Fulgrim. I'm sure he'd be happy to step up and add to his primarch kill tally. And yes i'am counting Guilliman as dead.

 

It is more possible Fulgrim will defeat his tormenter daemon and return as a noble son of the Emperor. I was wondering what will Inquisition and Terran Lords do in this kind of a situation?

 

Yeah this won't happen. Not only because GW wouldn't write that, but also because it doesn't make any sense, Fulgrim betrayed the Emperor before he was possessed by the daemon, and after 10,000 years of being a prisoner inside his own mind, he is by now probably completely insane. Also his multi-armed serpent body is the only one he's got now, and as it's the true form of the daemon that is possessing him, I'm guessing that destroying the daemon would destroy the body and also the "true" Fulgrim that lives inside it.

 

Not necessarily. He is most likely completely insane (although, he is a primarch, and so his mental fortitude could be enough to retain his sanity after such an ordeal), but casting off the daemonic possession under no means means death for Fulgrim. He may well simply revert back to his original form (there are several precedents for this happening), or simply be in command of that same daemonic body, but with his own mind. However, there is no direct precedent for casting off possesion after such a length of time.

 

He did betray the Imperium, but not to Chaos, until the daemon corrupted him from yon sword. He would not, however, return to the Imperium.