Chaos Possessed Marines

[Calacorm]

As the title suggests...

 

 

Does anyone use these guys? and if so what is some of your considerations when you do.

 

I just happened to get 5 of them today, and I am curious to know how people use them, if they do at all.

 

Worth it, or not?

[Brother Nihm]

Usually not worth it due to their random (and averagely crappy) abilities, and because they compete with Terminators in the Elite slot, lack a CC champ upgrade and need a transport. Berzekers fulfil the same role as Possessed, only better. Possessed have great bits for converting though.

 

Terminators or Lesser Daemons or Possessed, trying to be different

Possessed vs CC Chosen, Picking the better gimp

10 man Possessed Marine squad, (full sized for a Rhino)

[Sception]

I tried for awhile, mostly due to Black Legion fluff specifically encouraging them. But they're expensive, unreliable, compete with terminators for slots, can't claim objectives, etc. All in all they can't reliably fight hard targets in hand to hand, and soft targets can already be dealt with even by basic chaos marines. Oh, sure, occasionally you'll role 'power weapons' and they'll be hot stuff, but most of the time you're better off not fielding them at all.

 

I've got a nice big unit of ten that are sitting in a box until the day we see a new codex that makes them even pretend decent.

 

They're great models, though. I'd recommend using them to convert/represent aspiring champions or chosen.

[IronWinds]

Possessed are great for painting and modeling. They are however horrible on the battlefield... so my advice will be to have fun painting them but leave it at that.

 

 

As noted they don't really compare with other units that do similar things. Possessed are very random, and unless you get power weapons bezerkers are an astonishing better hth unit. Actually even terminators are a better hth unit.

 

 

I would have to find it, but once I ran a mathhammer of possessed's 'average' roll(1-6), and compared it to equal points in CSMs w/ a champ w/ a PF. No the CSMs didn't fair better.... but they were even. Thats the REALLY sad thing about possessed. Unless you get power weapons you are much better off with zerkers or terminators which are better in hth and shooting.

[Sception]

Did your comparison take into account the pistol shots regular marines get before charging? The rapid fire bolter shots the turn they disembark from their rhino? The meltaguns or flamers they can take at very few points? The fact that they have higher strength against vehicular targets in melee thanks to the free krak grenades? The fact that they don't strike last when charging into cover thanks to the free frag grenades? None of which possessed even have the option of taking? And even after all that, the comparison can't take into account that chaos marines can claim objectives and possessed can't.

 

It's sad, but, on average, possessed are elite specialists that aren't any better in their specialty then our basic generalist troops, which can do so much more as well. And even basic Chaos Marines, awesome as they are, aren't good enough to make it into competitive tournament lists when compared to Berzerkers and Plague Marines.

 

Even in friendly, non-competitive games, possessed are so bad at what they do, and do so little else, that you can tell they're terrible.

[IronWinds]

Nope I didn't compare in all those areas. No reason... if the CSMs are equal at what the Possessed specialize in it is fairly obvious they will exceed them in anything else. And in comparison zerkers beat them horribly... the only reason I tested against CSMs was because of HOW bad zerkers beat them. Against marines the zerkers had something like twice as many kills if the possessed didn't have PWs.

 

 

And I don't know why more people don't take more CSMs in tourny lists. Because I have mathhammered them against PMs in various situations, and neither of the two was outright better than the other. CSMs pack a whole lot more of a punch for their points(more attacks/bolters), PMs are a whole lot more survivable against small arms fire and basic ccws, but against the average enemy squad(1/10 guys has a special/heavy weapon that is ap2 or str 8, or a PW in assault) the two actually come out even. So if your enemy runs even a decent amount of power weapons/plasma/etc. PMs are actually at a little bit of a disadvantage. This is because they have less wounds than CSMs for the same points to absorb all those attacks that ignore FnP. Against armies that field a crap load of high str low ap weapons... like Eldar or Aircav lists... CSMs do significantly better than PMs.

 

And in a mathhammer shooting or assault 10CSMs, 2 meltas, champ w/ PF actually beats 7PMs, 2 meltas, Champ-PF ;) . They have less wounds to absorb the PFs and meltas.

 

I think they are more common in tournies because PMs and zerkers do opposite jobs. They compliment each other better. CSMs are more versatile than both, but when combined they can specialize more than CSMs could. Anyways.. I think running just CSMs works fine, I do it, and I don't experience any problems when playing against chaos players that field zerkers and PMs. And it has actually helped me out in battles against Aircav.

[the jeske]

csm run , pms do not . pm campers can work without an asp champion or icon , csm can not . yes csm have more shots and more wounds but in the end it doesnt matter that much . if someone wants to kill a unit with a good army it should die , pms have just a better chance of surviving . yes they do die from low ap weapons [well as long as they are str8+ and ap 1/2] , but against small weapon fire , they are like a unit of 7 terminators . the problem with csm is that unlike the pms at the end of turn 1/2 one unit will be dead due to focused fire/assault . with pms that can be true too, but doesnt have to . this means oblits and DPs and zerkers take less fire or in worse case they do take wounds , but your opponent doesnt have enough shots to kill them .

[Canadin]

It's sad, but, on average, possessed are elite specialists that aren't any better in their specialty then our basic generalist troops, which can do so much more as well. And even basic Chaos Marines, awesome as they are, aren't good enough to make it into competitive tournament lists when compared to Berzerkers and Plague Marines.

 

I run basic CSM in my tournament lists, and they perform amazing. They serve the purpose of generalist infantry very well. They are much cheaper than PM or Berzerks cuz they can both shoot and assault well with IoK, there are many enemies (like dark eldar witches) who I would Much rather bolter down than assault into, and when out of assault range, they can double tap onto enemies with their bolters... but I digress

 

on the note of possesed, they are really bad, dont take them, they are too expensive, and dont do ANYTHING fancy, and cost and elite choice, and dont take objectives

[Xeonic]

You mean that a rerollable LD10 is inferior to Fearless(gasp) :lol: ? Chaos glory is a total steal at 1pt/model for almost total fearlessness without the drawback of being actually fearless(no retreat wounds).

Being nearly immune to smallarms fire counts for a lot, but not when almost every squad can carry an AP1-2 weapon(or more likely 2 of them!)

 

Simple maths for simple me:

10 bolters rapidfiring(tactical squad with none of the free gear!)=20 shots, 13.33 average hits, 4.44 average wounds, 1.48 unsaved, .74 FnP saved, .74 total average dead plague marines.

 

Let's add in special weapons, a melta and a missile launcher(average tac marine loadout, costs 5pts more than basic squad) let's say the sarge has a pistol even.

7 bolters rapidfiring and a single pistol shot= 15 shots, 10 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved, .56 feel no pain, .56 unsaved.

Meltagun= .67 hits, .56 wounds, no saves

Missile launcher= .67 hits, .56 wounds, no saves, instant death denies fnp.

1.68 dead plague marines total with a missile launcher and meltagun

 

Comparing CSM, for a squad of 10 with chaos glory, you can take 7 plague marines

The CSM take 1.55 unsaved wounds from bolters/pistol, and the same .56 from each special weapon, for 2.67 dead.

 

So for one tac squad at 12" there would be 5.32 average plagues standing, to 7.33 chaos marines. Say you took two rounds of shooting, from two identical tac squads, you'd have 3.64 plague marines and 4.66 CSM. Three would leave 1.96 plagues and 1.99 CSM. After three rounds of shooting the amount of wounds a plague marine squad would have taken vs the chaos marines is less, however on average there would be less plague marines standing.

That's using a baseline squad with a single 5 pt. shooting upgrade.

 

Obviously plagues have a lot of things going for them, including fantastic blight grenades, T4(5), fearless, and feel no pain, but you shouldn't sell CSM short by any means.

 

quick edit: I have no idea why you'd consider posessed when most of the chaos troops choices are as powerful or moreso, cheaper ro similar cost, and scoring. I sincerely hope that posessed become badass killing machines in the 5th edition codex.

[Zhukov]

When doing math, always take into account cover saves; if your plagues dont have cover saves you are doing something wrong. Results this way will be more in favour of the Plague marines btw.

 

When I would use possesed I would go for just 8 man in a rhino. Using them the same as berzerkers, while knowing they dont score and are generally weaker unless I roll lucky. So no, I dont use them :blink:

[Xeonic]

Okay...

Vs Plagues, 15 bolt shots, 10 hits, yadayada, .56, since they're still using the same armor save. Melta .28(4+ cover) ML .28(4+ cover)1.12 dead plagues per round of shooting.

 

CSM, bolt shots 1.67 as before, melta .28, missile .28, 2.23 dead per round of shooting.

 

Again, a squad of 10 vs a squad of 7.

first round, 5.58 plague marines survive to 7.77 csm, second round 4.46 PM to 5.54, third 3.34 PM to 3.31.

 

In cover, it takes 3 squads worth of fire to equalize how powerful just having MEQ bodies on the board is over T4(5) and FnP.

[the jeske]

You mean that a rerollable LD10 is inferior to Fearless(gasp) laugh.gif ? Chaos glory is a total steal at 1pt/model for almost total fearlessness without the drawback of being actually fearless(no retreat wounds).

Being nearly immune to smallarms fire counts for a lot, but not when almost every squad can carry an AP1-2 weapon(or more likely 2 of them!)

dude . csm are not sm . we dont play at 18-24" where only shoting LD test you make is pining or normal tests . we work at 0-12" best , this means a lot of hth . and if you make LD tests in hth it doesnt really matter much if you have one or two tries to roll 5/6 on 2d6 .

 

In cover, it takes 3 squads worth of fire to equalize how powerful just having MEQ bodies on the board is over T4(5) and FnP.

what kind of a player do you have to be to leave a PM squad in plain sight of 3 tacticals [unless its drawing fire away from some other target] ? no one plays one squad of pms vs 3 squads of tacticals . there is going to be 4 of each [csm/pms-zerkers] . pms are better against small weapon fire and anything that does not ID and with rhino walls they should rarely be hit by more then two units [by units I mean anything from a squad ,to MM attack bike or a skimer] . pms also tar pit units better , because *gasp* unlike csm they do not run away from hth or lose their buff due to shoting.

[Calacorm]

So, very quickly, I can see that most people dont use the possessed marines at all. Which is sad. Looking at the old 3rd edition codex, they still carried either a boltgun or a bolt pistol and a CC, which now they do not...

 

In the codex for chaos that came just after the 3rd edition one, did they still have the weapons? Its just that in the current codex, the fluff seems so bad ass, and you want to have them in the army.. but like others have said, if you dont get the cool power like power weapons, they are not very good to have. (game wise)

 

Such cool looking minis, that are gonna end up doing nothing :P Is there anything at all good about them?

[Zeller]

I like their strength 5. As the others have said I field them once the terminators have been paid for. After that I take a 10-man squad with banner and usually a rhino. Larger games obviously 1750+. Bear in mind they are there for fluff purposes as a WB. If I had the money I'd just bring 30 terminators.

[Zhukov]

Is there anything at all good about them?

Yes if you dont really care about winning and like having some random elements in your army they arent too bad. I mean a random table means your unit has different stats each game; that actually can be interesting if you like such things :) Also when you do throw a '6' they are really awesome!

[IronWinds]

Jeske, I normally agree with you 100% on everything... but not on PMs vs CSMs....

 

 

dude . csm are not sm . we dont play at 18-24" where only shoting LD test you make is pining or normal tests . we work at 0-12" best , this means a lot of hth . and if you make LD tests in hth it doesnt really matter much if you have one or two tries to roll 5/6 on 2d6 .

 

But with 10 and a re-roll you have to be at a pretty big negative multiplier for it to matter. At -3, your Ld7, w/ a re-roll thats still over a 75% chance of passing. And CSMs are pretty resilient, and good in hth. There are few things CSMs won't hurt at all, normally you'll at least kill 2-3 at least so for them to have you at a -4 they would have to kill 6-7 guys. Any unit that has CSMs at a -4 or more is normally something that is wiping out the entire squad in 1-2 turns anyways, and its normally something that would be equally nasty against PMs, maybe more so since they only have 7 guys to begin with. The only units that have had my marines at a -4 were GK Terminators, TH/SS terminators lead by Grimnar, and a hive tyrant back in 4th. Any of those things would steamroll through PMs just as easy. Now yes.. if your just a bad player and you let things charge you that shouldn't be charging you(orks) your in trouble, but that is avoidable.

 

And on that note... I've never had a marine sweeped... ever... all the way back to when 3.5 came out. Even in those situations where I was at a -4 I either passed, or ran and actually made it(terminators), or that unit was just meant to soften up the target and my zerkers were still in hth finishing them off. CSMs w/ IoCG are pretty good at not running. That might just be my army, but I love 10 w/ re-roll.

 

what kind of a player do you have to be to leave a PM squad in plain sight of 3 tacticals

 

I think what he was saying was that it would take 3 turns of shooting for that one tactical to do enough damage to both squads for them to be equal. It really doesn't have to be 3 tacticals shooting at once, or 3 turns of one tactical shooting. I've ran the HtH numbers, and they are quite the same. 1 turn of shooting, and 2 turns of assault will net about the same results if just 1 of the enemies in the squad has a low ap weapon and a PW/PF(which is common amongst 90% of armies). You can move the order around however you want, the results are the same. I don't mind people running PMs, because toe to toe... point for point my CSM squads will kill them... barely(1-2 guys live), but that is enough ;) .

 

 

 

In the codex for chaos that came just after the 3rd edition one, did they still have the weapons? Its just that in the current codex, the fluff seems so bad ass, and you want to have them in the army.. but like others have said, if you dont get the cool power like power weapons, they are not very good to have. (game wise)

 

In 3.5 they had some of the same options, but instead of rolling to see what they got you got to buy the demonic abilities. The most common upgrade was demon talons(rending). I think they would actually be alright(still not good) if they came standard with rending, and then you rolled a d6 to see what the other ability was... maybe replace the rending roll on the d6 with flight.

[the jeske]

I've ran the HtH numbers, and they are quite the same. 1 turn of shooting, and 2 turns of assault will net about the same results if just 1 of the enemies in the squad has a low ap weapon and a PW/PF(which is common amongst 90% of armies).

is that counting bligh and the fact that most units have only 1 special weapon for hth [unlike the 2 they have for shoting]. + one turn of shoting and 2 of hth means you didnt counter attack for one turn , that never happens unless you want to tar pit and pms tar pit better , just because they will not run [and csm can and if they fight against a better or supported unit will].

There are few things CSMs won't hurt at all, normally you'll at least kill 2-3 at least so for them to have you at a -4 they would have to kill 6-7 guys.

if someone goes in to hth and you lose with chaos then it is mostly to counter units + HQ support or MC . for me thats 1 guy dead from fist ,2-3 minimum from the HQ and 2-3 from normal attacks of the squad . yes you can charge and kill fewer but then your tar piting the csm and we are not talking here about what happens when someone tar pits a chaos unit , but what happens when it loses hth and gets broken . pms always stay for one more turn of hth[unless its something like 6 terminators +HQ charging out from a LD, but csm die then too] with csm it can happen too , but it can also fail.

 

as the icon re-roll goes . yeah it is there but when you lose 4-5 guys and are making the Ld test the chance is that the icon is dead by then , specialy as before the hth there is a round of shoting [well or we are charging , but if we charge and still lose then it means that unit pms or csm should have moved+run back/rhino walled or at least move away and double tap and die next turn].

[Sception]

I'm sorry to have derailed the thread. I didn't at all intend to put down basic Chaos Space Marines - they're a great unit, and four full squads of them in rhinos form the backbone of most of my armies these days - and my armies do very well, at least in the casual environment I game in.

 

All I was trying to say is that basic chaos marines are way, way, better then possessed, and even basic marines aren't all that common in the competitive lists I see posted around the web.

 

 

As for possessed - since I finally gave up on playing them in regular games I've only used them as possessed in Apocolypse games - game so huge that their points inefficiency didn't hurt so bad, especially when they're standing next to the 300 points underpriced armorcast reaver I used to own, and charging out of their personal land raider. Or so I thought..

 

But even then, they still weren't good! The problem with possessed is that they only do one thing - fight in close combat - and even at that one thing they just aren't very good. Without access to power weapons, even on the champ - without a random roll they really struggle against heavy infantry targets, and their S5 is really overkill against light infantry targets. They kinda seem alright against orcs - with their high T and poor saves, but even there the high points cost of possessed gets them swarmed and pummeled. And don't forget that terrain is everywhere these days, and Possessed can't carry frag grenades - meaning you're going to be taking casualties before you even get to strike.

 

 

Long story short, the models are great, use them to convert up some awesome aspiring champions.

[Canadin]

I'm also guna apologize for de-railing this into PM vs CSM

 

But on the topic of possessed, they USED to be good, cuz you had the books of ruinous powers to make them all into kik ass super troopers.

 

But nowadays, they have been stripped of all wargear; and left as over-costed and underpowered.....

 

 

 

Damn shame since the models are so kick-ass

[IronWinds]

s that counting bligh and the fact that most units have only 1 special weapon for hth [unlike the 2 they have for shoting].

 

Yes... and keep in mind that 1 special hth weapon is going to have 2-3 attacks, so 1 PF in hth has the same effect as 2 meltas at range. Not counting BS/WS of course, but considering I did the original tests with guardsmen(BS3) it doesn't really matter because the guard were always hitting on 4s and the marines always on 3s.

 

And my analysis of CSM vs PMs is based on my experience with CSMs. My icon is normally one of my last 3 models to go in a squad so I'm not to worried about that.

 

And I again it doesn't matter what happens first, shooting, assault, the order of the two. The result is the same, if the enemy unit has 1 melta or plasma, and a PW or PF the CSMs and PMs will last the same amount of time. Organize the fight however you want, it doesn't make a difference.

 

 

I'm sorry to have derailed the thread.

 

Don't sweat it, I'll take the blame for that for bringing up that CSMs are > or = to PMs in effectiveness, its a touchy subject.

 

 

Long story short, the models are great, use them to convert up some awesome aspiring champions.

 

Best use for them. And I've found the one shooting fire from his fingertips is great for converting a sorcerer with doombolt or wind of chaos :wallbash:.

 

Personally.... I use mine as my possessed in Mordhiem. They have all the right bits, so no matter what mutation I want to give my possessed the 40k models have it. Great claw... check, hooved feet... check, spiky armor... check, tentacles... check, armor that hurts anyone who hits it... check.