chaos gods rivalry

[Demoulius]

hello my spikey brethren from the chaos subforum :ph34r: i have a question (or string of questions) for you:

 

why are the chaos gods rivalring? and more specificly what are their gripes with eachother?

[Spaakl Daakli]

Chaos is, by it's very nature, the complete antithesis of structure, control & predictability. All laws and traditional cocepts of societal norms cease to apply.

 

So it is a case of every man and their dog - sorry: "every man and their god" - clawing, biting & doing basically whatever they can to scramble their way up the pecking order, even if for no other reason than to escape becoming victims.

 

Essentially, it's a god eat god universe out here.

 

:ph34r:

[Ashe Darke]

It depends where you look. In the current codex there is no mention of Ancient Enemies in rules or fluff. Whether this will stick for the next edition is something to be seen.

[Legatus]

That may be because the more in depth description of the deities and their daemons has been outsourced into a different Codex. The Chaos Gods are only mentioned in one or two short paragraph each in the Codex Chaos Space Marines, so their rivalries may not have been that essential to touch upon.

 

As for why they are rivals: A chaos god gains power by being worshipped and consuming the souls of their fallen followers. Therefor each god has an inherent desire to get a follower for himself instead of for his "competitors". In the case of gods with conflicting philosophies, the rivaly is especially fierce.

[Ashe Darke]

Well going off the Realms of Chaos books it's due to how they draw their energy.

 

'Nurgle is the eternal enemy of the Chaos Power Tzeentch, the Lord of Change. Nurgle and Tzeentch draw their energy from opposing beliefs. While the energy of Tzeentch comes from hope and changing fortune, that of Nurgle comes from defiance born of despair and hopelessness. The two Great Powers never lose and opportunity to pit their forces against each other, from mighty battle on the Chaos Wastes, to complex political intrigues among mortal men' - Lost and the Damned.

 

So while I'm sure a factor of it might be to claim that follower, it seems to be down to a matter of principles.

[Demoulius]

dident slaanesh and khorne have a rivalry as well? what was that about then?

[Ashe Darke]

Yeah they're opposites as well. Slaves to Darkness doesn't go into as much detail as LatD

 

'Particular enemies are the followers of Khorne, whose belief in pain and death is completely opposed to Slaanesh's principle of a life of unrestricted pleasure'

 

So that's what is written from the Slaaneshi perspective. The Khornate one offers nothing, merely saying their views are opposed. The Tzeentch perspective is just a rewording of my previous quote.

[Demoulius]

hmm dident khorne ALSO dispise tzeentch for using magic and the like? :pinch:

 

i think it comes down to:

 

khorne hates Tzeentch for using magic and fighting "without honour" or something along those lines

khorne hates slaanesh because his followers dont die (or intend to do so) as his followers are chasing pleasure and the like which most commonly doesent kill the, whilst khorne wants stuff to die....

khorne hates nurgle because his followers dont die (or intend to do so) his influence makes them live longer and thus his believes are opposite to those of khorne, who wants blood and souls to flow constantly

 

that about right?

 

for nurgle its something like:

nurgle hates khorne because khorne kills puppies and takes their skulls nurgle's powers and way of handling things mean his followers and minions are protected from harm. he holds their "lives" closely and khorne intends only to kill stuff.

nurgle hates tzeentch because the big bird keeps changing stuff that nurgle wants to influence with his plagues, thus making his work harder (i guess)

nurgle hates slaanesh because...er....no idea actually :sweat:

 

for tzeentch:

he doesent hate anyone, he just pretends to so he can manipulate more people :( (dont have the faintest clue why he would hate people)

 

slaanesh:

khorne ruins their fun. nurgle makes it icky and thus also ruins the fun and tzeentch changes the fun so he also ruins the fun. (like tzeentch i have no idea here....)

 

some mroe insight would be awesome guys :) no quoting from the codexi is needed, personal vieuws are welcome as well :tu:

[Ashe Darke]

The manager at my LGS claimed that for a brief while it was K+T and N+S which to me makes more sense. But traditionally the Ancient Rivals are as mentioned in my earlier posts. It doesn't mention things like Khorne hating Nurgle for example.

[Yogi]

Khorne does not hate nurgle..

 

Khorne hates Slaanesh.. Because hes soft and eldarish.

 

He dislikes Tzeentch cause he is a coward and uses magic.

 

Khorne doesn't seem to really hate Nurgle at all. There is no mention of it ever.

 

 

Also its hardly surprising they dont work together very often.. They are gods of Chaos.

[Spaakl Daakli]

for tzeentch:

he doesent hate anyone, he just pretends to so he can manipulate more people ;) (dont have the faintest clue why he would hate people)

 

TZEENTCH, Comrade, "hates" none of the lesser Ruinous Powers, per se. Hatred is such a quaintly mortal indulgence (like love, romance and football, when you think about it), and is something far too petty, peripheral & insignificant to be an aspect of a truly divine entity.

 

Rivalry & Competition, however, are completely different concepts altogether. It is perfectly understandable & logical for the lesser gods to be rivals of The Immortal Schemer (and each other, of course), despite the utter futility of their even considering such a proposition. So when push comes to shove, any of the Chaos powers will do anything & everything they can to assume a position of ascendancy over their rivals.

 

Before blessed TZEENTCH once more changes the rules of the Great Game & asserts his inevitable control over the great space-time continuum, and the affairs of mortals & the minor divinities alike.

 

Trust me on this: if anybody would know about The Truth of this, TZEENTCH would be the one to know.

 

;)

[Lucifer216]

One of the more interesting aspects of the Greater Powers in my mind is how the four interact with civilisation. It seems to me that Khorne and Nurgle florish and are at their peak during attempts to bring Civilisation down to anarchy, be in the form of massed slaughter or plague. In contrast, both Tzeentch and Slaanesh need civilisation. Their worshippers cannot reach the hights of power politics or debauchery and decadant inside a plain hut made out of animal skins. Theirs is the remit of empire, where power and wealth are concentrated in the hands of a few, those desperate enough to seek any advantage when it comes to influencing their peers in their own smaller great game.

[Ntin]

hello my spikey brethren from the chaos subforum ;) i have a question (or string of questions) for you:

 

why are the chaos gods rivalring? and more specificly what are their gripes with eachother?

 

The pairs of hatred are Slaanesh & Khorne, and Nurgle & Tzeentch. At one point in the fluff Khorne and Nurgle were "buddies". Older versions of the Codex there was rules representing this animosity.

[Canadin]

The hatred between the forces of Chaos has been Khorne V Slaanesh and Nurgle V Tzeentch; as Ntin put it

 

It is true that all the gods consider each other rivals, for reasons posted above,

 

But the big thing is that Khorne thinks Slaanesh is too much of a pansie, and HATES Slaanesh's guts for that reason

Slaanesh in turn hates Khorne for being a Brutish boring :lol: who kills everyone, (and puts their skull on his chair)

 

Tzeentch hates Nurgle because Nurgle destroys far too many peons that Tzeentch would like to scheme with

and Nurgle in turn hates Tzeentch for :cussing with nature (cuz he's all bout "natural death" and by natural, I mean the plague)

 

 

So really, all the gods rival each other and have different philosophies, but the only real hatred exists between Khorne and Slaanesh;

--whereas Nurgle and Tzeentch just find each other very annoying

[Spaakl Daakli]

That was Then/ This is Now.

 

(And I do miss the good ole days of Chaos animosity!!! They don't write rules like that any more.)

 

Now it's just a god eat god kinda universe.

 

Regardless.

[Ntin]

The hatred between the forces of Chaos has been Khorne V Slaanesh and Nurgle V Tzeentch; as Ntin put it

 

It is true that all the gods consider each other rivals, for reasons posted above,

 

But the big thing is that Khorne thinks Slaanesh is too much of a pansie, and HATES Slaanesh's guts for that reason

Slaanesh in turn hates Khorne for being a Brutish boring :) who kills everyone, (and puts their skull on his chair)

 

Tzeentch hates Nurgle because Nurgle destroys far too many peons that Tzeentch would like to scheme with

and Nurgle in turn hates Tzeentch for :cussing with nature (cuz he's all bout "natural death" and by natural, I mean the plague)

 

 

So really, all the gods rival each other and have different philosophies, but the only real hatred exists between Khorne and Slaanesh;

--whereas Nurgle and Tzeentch just find each other very annoying

 

When Slaanesh was born he ate part of Kaela Mensha Khaine which angered Khorne as he wanted the Bloody Handed god’s essence for some time.

[Canadin]

Does anyone know where it says anything about why the Gods stopped hating each other?

 

Someone who works at a GW store told me that he read somewhere that the Gods suceded from the Chaos marines because they are now scared that if the Emperor dies (gets killed by CSM), his psychic essence will enter the warp and kick their asses; but he failed to recall where he got that information from.

[Raulmichile]

These are fan theories as far as I know. What happens with the Emperor and humanity when he dies is something GW (on purpouse) has not delved in.

[Retalitus]

I think what everyone has said so far makes perfect sense...

 

As far as I've always known it, none of the God's like each other, but they're all willing to work together as part of the 'Great Game' - i.e. the never-ending war between Chaos in the warp. If I recall correctly (I think there was a mention of this point in the Chaos Daemon Codex), whenever one of the God's powers become too great, the other's inevitably work together to bring them down. I'm sure this happened to Tzeentch, when he was forced to shatter his super-powerful staff, as a previous poster mentioned...

 

Also, one shouldn't forget that there are other Chaos powers in the Warp other than the 4 major gods... whilst none rival the powers of Slaanesh, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle right now, who's to say another won't come to the fore at some stage? There's also - of course - the Orkish Gods... Gork and Mork, if I remember correctly... surely they also reside in the Warp?

 

It's been mentioned many times elsewhere, but I've always thought of the Emperor as another potential Chaos God... whilst I think the generally accepted fluff is that he's going to end up kicking the arses of the other Gods when he finally unplugs himself from his throne, I can well imagine him turning into a power just like they are, and indeed participating in the Great Game himself! In my mind, he would be the Chaos God of Pride, Intolerance, Fear of the Unknown, and many other things his weak Imperium represents!

 

 

 

....On a completely different topic, I must say - Lucifer216, I totally approve of your avatar! Is it just me, or is Richard the Warlock the perfect example of Chaos working together... in my twisted mind, he's clearly the love-child of Khorne and Tzeentch! ;)

[Spaakl Daakli]

I've found the perfect way to appreciate the nature of the relationship between the Ruinous Powers, although it's a bit left field (I am a Tzeentchian, after all, so this should surprise nobody).

 

There is a (stunningly good) Warhammer Fantasy based board game out at the moment called Chaos In The Old World. It's about the four great gods essentially struggling to pervert the Warhammer World between Tilea/ Estalia/ The Badlands through to Norsca, and the Chaos Powers are essentially in competition with each other. The Game is brilliantly conceived & executed, as in addition to obviously competing with each other to win, the players of the Four Gods occasionally need to cooperate with each other whenever one of their peers starts to become too dominant. It is a stunning evocation of the nature of the relationships between the Gods of Chaos.

 

I have found that playing this game a few times certainly brings the fluff of the divine rivalry within the Great Game sharper in to focus for both the 40K Universe and The Other Game, so as well as being an outstanding game in its own right, it has that extra tasty addition of being an ideal entree to our game. Especially for we blessed heretics!