Shrike and the boys

[Charliemachina]

Shrike and his squad can infiltrate!

 

Does this mean I can take, shrike 10 Vanguard and a Chaplain and infiltrate them all on deployment as one unit or would the Chaplain of other IC's not count as part of his squad?????

 

Always puzzled me this one and everone one gives me different answers.

 

Charlie

[JamesI]

This one gets argued. I think the chaplain gets infilitrate as being attached to the squad, but the other side has a good argument. Hopefully an official answer comes down.

[stinkenheim]

without the codex in hand if it says 'shrike and any model in his unit' or something along those lines then yes, a squad and an attached IC would be able to infiltrate.

[Ashe Darke]

It says 'Skrike (and any models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule'.

 

I'd say yes.

[Grey Mage]

Yes, since they are all one squad for all other non-CC purposes I dont see why you couldnt.

[Bannus]

I'll have to say "no", and here is why:

 

It states "models in his squad". Is the Chaplain "in" the squad for purposes of Infiltrate?

 

No. He can be attached to the squad or join the squad - but he is never actually "in" the squad.

 

Shrike - as an IC - can attach himself to a single unit. That unit can be the squad or the Chaplain (so he could infiltrate the Chaplain) - but not both.

 

Sure, you can attach the Chaplain to the squad, but because Infiltrate has that nice little "*" next to it, the entire combined unit of Shrike-squad-Chappy then lose the ability.

[Ashe Darke]

So is that due to it saying squad and not unit?

 

So Shrike attaching to an IC wouldn't confer this either as the IC is not a squad?

 

This was a point that I had to think over but I decided that a squad with an IC attached was still a squad and so attaching Shrike was still attaching him to a squad.

[Grey Mage]

I'll have to say "no", and here is why:

 

It states "models in his squad". Is the Chaplain "in" the squad for purposes of Infiltrate?

 

No. He can be attached to the squad or join the squad - but he is never actually "in" the squad.

 

Shrike - as an IC - can attach himself to a single unit. That unit can be the squad or the Chaplain (so he could infiltrate the Chaplain) - but not both.

 

Sure, you can attach the Chaplain to the squad, but because Infiltrate has that nice little "*" next to it, the entire combined unit of Shrike-squad-Chappy then lose the ability.

Negatory bannus, either he can attach to the squad and is part of it for the purposes of infiltrate... or hes not.

 

If he can, so can any other IC. I know... little asterisk. The squad hes with doesnt have that either, any of them, and they dont stop it so thats really a non-entity. Its wether or not a character is joined to the squad during deployment or not- and we know they can, simply by deploying with the unit.

 

So either the chaplain can come to, or the ability just plain doesnt work. I know wich makes more sense to me.

[Bannus]

Well, we have to ask ourselves, "what actually makes a squad his?"

 

That would be joining himself to a unit - correct? *everybody nods*

 

His special rule allows himself and - different from the standard rule - "models in his squad" to infiltrate.

 

Look at the rules for IC's joining to squads in the BRB - you can have one IC join a squad or even multiple ICs join a squad or you can have several ICs join together....

 

Also look at the example of infiltrate in the BRB and ICs joining squads.

 

Shrike has Infiltrate.

 

By joining a unit, that unit has infiltrate too (his special rules).

 

Stop. That is as far as his rules allow him to deviate from the norm.

 

There is no "initiative order" when it comes to joining IC's to a unit when it comes to deployment (and in this case - infiltrating). It all happens at the same time. So you cannot already have the Chaplain joined to the unit before Shrike does. Shrike may join the squad and the Chaplain may join the squad - but the squad and Chaplain together are not considered a single unit for the purposes of infiltrate (again, I refer you to the rules about IC's joining squads and the example of infiltrating in the BRB). So this is where that tiny, little "*" becomes all-important. Shrike's special rules only allows him to do it with just "the models in his squad" and the Chaplain is not in the squad at the time. He and Shrike must join the squad at the same time and because the Chaplain does not have infiltrate, the whole unit will lose the ability.

[Grey Mage]

However, the Chaplain is still a member of the squad- and since the entire squad gets infiltrate, that would include him.

 

As soon as you put him in unit coherency he is part of that squad, and thus has infiltrate by shrikes wording. Thus there is no conflict with some models having infiltrate and other models not having infiltrate.

[Mordekiem]

I gotta agree with Bannus that the chaplain is left behind.

 

You cannot attach the chaplain to a unit of scouts and infiltrate them. So why could you join him to shrike and his unit?

 

I understand RAW is very grey on this matter, but this seems to be inline with the other rules.

[Bannus]

However, the Chaplain is still a member of the squad- and since the entire squad gets infiltrate, that would include him.

 

As soon as you put him in unit coherency he is part of that squad, and thus has infiltrate by shrikes wording. Thus there is no conflict with some models having infiltrate and other models not having infiltrate.

Can you point out where it says that the Chaplain is part of the squad? Especially with regards to Infiltraate? Or any USR?

 

Then there is that interesting word "squad" - it doesn't even say "unit". Can the Chaplain actually be part of a Tactical Squad or a Scout Squad or Assault Squad? By the use of that one word alone, I'd have to say "no" yet again. To be in the squad would require him to be part of the unit entry - which he clearly is not.

[Meatman]

I've never met anyone who's had a problem with me doing this, except with an assault squad rather then vanguard. And to be honest I think it's being very pedantic to say that because it says squad rather then unit it doesn't work.

By your logic, Bannus, no unit can infiltrate with him as his "squad" is just him, he has no squad other then what he is attached to, which could include the chaplain. So RAW either the whole lot can infiltrate with him, or it's just Shrike.

[Grey Mage]

However, the Chaplain is still a member of the squad- and since the entire squad gets infiltrate, that would include him.

 

As soon as you put him in unit coherency he is part of that squad, and thus has infiltrate by shrikes wording. Thus there is no conflict with some models having infiltrate and other models not having infiltrate.

Can you point out where it says that the Chaplain is part of the squad? Especially with regards to Infiltraate? Or any USR?

 

Then there is that interesting word "squad" - it doesn't even say "unit". Can the Chaplain actually be part of a Tactical Squad or a Scout Squad or Assault Squad? By the use of that one word alone, I'd have to say "no" yet again. To be in the squad would require him to be part of the unit entry - which he clearly is not.

I think thats a bit ironic Bannus- if it said unit, youd allow it even though it doesnt say it in the "unit" entry?

 

But sure, Ill indulge though Im sure you already know the passage:

BRB, pg. 48.

Alternatively an idependant character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

Note, there is no definition of a "squad" anywhere in the BRB, just "Squadrons" wich are a special type of "unit".

 

Normally, Id say you were quite correct- but since he can join the unit during the deployment phase- becoming part of the unit- he would gain the infiltrate USR just like the unit would because of how shrike is worded. As you said, there is no order of operations during deployment- either the Chaplain gains it by virtue of being part of the unit just as shrike is part of the unit and a missile toting tactical marine is part of the unit, or none of them do and the rule is unusuable.

[Bannus]

However, the Chaplain is still a member of the squad- and since the entire squad gets infiltrate, that would include him.

 

As soon as you put him in unit coherency he is part of that squad, and thus has infiltrate by shrikes wording. Thus there is no conflict with some models having infiltrate and other models not having infiltrate.

Can you point out where it says that the Chaplain is part of the squad? Especially with regards to Infiltraate? Or any USR?

 

Then there is that interesting word "squad" - it doesn't even say "unit". Can the Chaplain actually be part of a Tactical Squad or a Scout Squad or Assault Squad? By the use of that one word alone, I'd have to say "no" yet again. To be in the squad would require him to be part of the unit entry - which he clearly is not.

I think thats a bit ironic Bannus- if it said unit, youd allow it even though it doesnt say it in the "unit" entry?

I never said that (I refer you to my earlier post). I was simply pointing out yet another reason why the Chaplain could not be "in" the squad.

 

But sure, Ill indulge though Im sure you already know the passage:

BRB, pg. 48.

Alternatively an idependant character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them.

Note, there is no definition of a "squad" anywhere in the BRB, just "Squadrons" wich are a special type of "unit".

Here it points out that he can be attached/joined to or with the unit - but isn't actually considered part of the unit because he isn't actually "in" the unit. There is a significant difference there.

 

Normally, Id say you were quite correct- but since he can join the unit during the deployment phase- becoming part of the unit- he would gain the infiltrate USR just like the unit would because of how shrike is worded. As you said, there is no order of operations during deployment- either the Chaplain gains it by virtue of being part of the unit just as shrike is part of the unit and a missile toting tactical marine is part of the unit, or none of them do and the rule is unusuable.

Because of the lack of initiative when joining a unit, the Chaplain cannot have it because Shrike can only join one unit. The squad and the Chaplain are two seperate units. The Chaplain would already have to be "in" the unit BEFORE Shrike is joined to it to gain the benefit - which is an impossibility.

[angry man]

i dont understand how there can be any complaint about using shrike to infiltrate a unit and attatched character

 

surely if the chaplain joins the unit he is a part of it, and follows all of the same restrictions as it, until he leaves the unit or hits combat??

 

consider this: shrike and a chaplain both join a unit of 5 marines. the unit is shot and takes 7 casualties. so now we have to allocate wounds... the marines take one each and there are 2 left over, who takes them? i would say one on the chappy and one on shrike. however, since neither are in the unit, i guess the marines take another 2?? or not, because actually both the chaplain and shrike are a part of the same unit and the wounds are spread evenly and accordingly.

 

to me it would seem that this shows that all the models are a part of the same unit and are all in the same squad, and, therefore, can all make use of shrikes infiltrate ability

 

AM

[Grey Mage]

Bannus, I see what your saying but I cant agree with that interpretation- a character that is attached to a unit is considered part of it for all purposes unless specificly stated otherwise. We know that a Character is considered part of the unit they are attached to for the purposes of deployment- examples being for how we roll reserves, shrikes own rule, and characters who have infiltrate or outflanking abilities themselves.

 

We also know that if the chaplain is deployed in coherency with the squad, then they are part of it.

 

So, since everything is done at the same "time" for rules purposes in deployment, then I can only see that the chaplain would count as part of the squad when shrike is joined, same as shrike counts as part of the squad when he joins. Since all of that is done and declared before the infiltrators are placed, I dont see any issue here.

[Bannus]

surely if the chaplain joins the unit he is a part of it, and follows all of the same restrictions as it, until he leaves the unit or hits combat??

 

But what happens when a Chaplain normally joins a unit that has the Infiltrate USR?

 

consider this: shrike and a chaplain both join a unit of 5 marines. the unit is shot and takes 7 casualties. so now we have to allocate wounds... the marines take one each and there are 2 left over, who takes them? i would say one on the chappy and one on shrike. however, since neither are in the unit, i guess the marines take another 2?? or not, because actually both the chaplain and shrike are a part of the same unit and the wounds are spread evenly and accordingly.

 

to me it would seem that this shows that all the models are a part of the same unit and are all in the same squad, and, therefore, can all make use of shrikes infiltrate ability

Shooting and USRs are handled quite differently in the BRB (and differently for close combat too) - you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

 

Bannus, I see what your saying but I cant agree with that interpretation- a character that is attached to a unit is considered part of it for all purposes unless specificly stated otherwise. We know that a Character is considered part of the unit they are attached to for the purposes of deployment- examples being for how we roll reserves, shrikes own rule, and characters who have infiltrate or outflanking abilities themselves.

I'm not denying that he cannot attach himself to the unit - or deploy with that unit simultaniously.

 

We also know that if the chaplain is deployed in coherency with the squad, then they are part of it.

But the effect would be the same as if you were deploying the Chaplain with any infiltrating unit - i.e. the unit loses the infiltrate ability. If the rule did not include the "*", then you would be right. If I tried to join a Chaplain to a unit of Scouts - yes, they would deploy together as a single unit, but would they be allowed to infiltrate? No.

 

Same applies here as well.

 

So, since everything is done at the same "time" for rules purposes in deployment, then I can only see that the chaplain would count as part of the squad when shrike is joined, same as shrike counts as part of the squad when he joins. Since all of that is done and declared before the infiltrators are placed, I dont see any issue here.

The key here is that both characters are joining the SQUAD - the same Squad. Shrike has Infiltrate. He can confer that ability to the SQUAD that he joins....and that is all his ability allows him to do. You have the Chaplain join the squad (even if it is simultatiously with Shrike), then the "*" part of Infiltrate must be abided by and the whole unit loses the ability. Shrike cannot join the squad AND the Chaplain - both characters must join the SQUAD. It is this process of attaching characters to squads and the effect of the "*" from the USR that prevents the Chaplain from joining in with "Shrike and the boys".

[Zynk Kaladin]

Interesting... well, let's put it this way. Shrike is a captain, which is a higher rank than a chaplain. Because of this, Shrike would be considered the leader of the squad consisting of his subordinates (the chappy and the others). Realistically, I would think whatever Shrike orders, then his squad will follow those orders to the letter. If Shrike, captain of the 3rd, wants to infiltrate, then he's going to duct tape the chappy's mouth and drag him behind enemy lines. I understand the '*' and all, but this seems more reasonable.

[angry man]

surely if the chaplain joins the unit he is a part of it, and follows all of the same restrictions as it, until he leaves the unit or hits combat??

 

But what happens when a Chaplain normally joins a unit that has the Infiltrate USR?

granted, if a chappy joins a unit of scouts, they would lose the ability. however, shrike confers infiltrate to the entire squad. until shrike joins the unit, no-one has it. the quote below was intended to show why i think a chaplain is a part of that squad.

 

consider this: shrike and a chaplain both join a unit of 5 marines. the unit is shot and takes 7 casualties. so now we have to allocate wounds... the marines take one each and there are 2 left over, who takes them? i would say one on the chappy and one on shrike. however, since neither are in the unit, i guess the marines take another 2?? or not, because actually both the chaplain and shrike are a part of the same unit and the wounds are spread evenly and accordingly.

 

to me it would seem that this shows that all the models are a part of the same unit and are all in the same squad, and, therefore, can all make use of shrikes infiltrate ability

Shooting and USRs are handled quite differently in the BRB (and differently for close combat too) - you are comparing apples to oranges.

it wasnt meant as a comparison, it was merely meant to illustrate that when a character attatches himself to a unit, he becomes a part of that unit, and as far as im concerned is therefore viable for recieving shrike's infiltrate

 

AM

[Grey Mage]

Do captains get FNP from the command squads narthecium or not?

 

Does a techmarine in the same unit as a chaplain reroll to hits on the turn they assault? Is he fearless?

 

Squad and Unit are used interchangeably throughout C:SM, unless you want to argue that those two benefits dont apply, then we must use the same verbage- a "squad" is everyone thats part of a unit, including attached ICs.

[thade]

Do captains get FNP from the command squads narthecium or not?

 

Yes, they do, as he's a part of that "squad". I don't disagree that the word "squad" is very annoying here as it's not clearly defined. This reminds me of the word "template" in the BRB which refers to flamer-like weapons and "blast template" is used to describe the pie plates...which are templates but not BRB defined "templates". Comes up with TL-blast weapons vs "template" (flamer-like) weapons. Anyway, I digress.

 

Shrike is the guy in charge, so if a Chaplain (his peer at best) is with him and a team of vets, the Chaplain and those vets are part of Shrike's "squad". In deployment types where you are allowed to field more than two HQs (think Planet Strike), you could take your four (let's say four) ICs together as one unit, Shrike one of them, and well...they'd be able to infiltrate, the four of them. Why not?

 

Shrike, Jump Chaplain, and two Jump Captains, to be more specific. I don't think anybody here would argue that I couldn't start the game deploying those four together as a unit or even in reserve to arrive later, altogether as a unit. Why then can't they make use of Shrike's ability as a unit?

 

Perhaps the word "squad" here is a synonym for "unit"? The latter is (as clearly as GW ever does) clearly defined in the BRB, as are the ramifications for an IC joining a unit. If the word squad and the word unit are the same (which stands to reason, because otherwise what is a squad?) then naturally Shrike and his "squad/unit" can infiltrate together.

 

I'm going to settle there, I think. Squad is clearly defined no where, unit is. They seem to be the same thing. I think it's very likely that they are.

 

EDIT: Shrike does get the Chaplain re-roll on the charge to-hit, as the Chaplain's rule says "unit". The more I think about it, I really can't think of a place I've seen the word "squad" where the word "unit" wouldn't work/make much more sense.

[Ashe Darke]

I think Bannus's point is the fact that most the infantry choices say things like Tactical Squad, Scout Squad, Devastator Squad etc, which is what I believe he thinks the rule is referring to. That's the only way I can think of to try and stop someone from doing this.

[Grey Mage]

Should we be trying to "stop" them from doing this? Or should be be focusing instead on what the rules actually say, this being to OR forum and all?

 

Personally I dont even think chucking in a chaplain is anything close to game breaking anyways.... it just makes the squad a minimum of 100pts more expensive without adding much if anything to its durability. His bonuses only really help on the charge, and fearless is a drawback if they lose combat. Definitely a mixed bag here.

[Ashe Darke]

No I don't think we should, but I were to try and do that, what I mentioned is the only was I could think of doing it.

 

The rule does seem like an 'any unit he joins gets the ability' type of rule.