Shrike and the boys

[thade]

I mean, if the word "squad" coming up in the titles for units is what we want to work with...then hey: we have an answer.

 

A Tactical Squad is a "unit". (seems squad = unit)

An Assault Squad is a "unit". (seems squad = unit)

A Sternguard Squad is a "unit". (seems squad = unit)

A Vanguard Squad is a "unit". (seems squad = unit)

A Chaplain is a "unit"...with the IC rule, which allows him to become a part of another "unit".

 

So a Vanguard Squad with an attached Chaplain is a "unit". It also seems to be a "squad" (it's still a Vanguard Squad, the Chaplain's presence doesn't change that).

 

Shrike is a "unit" with the IC rule, which allows him to become a part of another "unit".

 

So a Vanguard Squad with an attached Shrike is a "unit". It also seems to be a "squad" (it's still a Vanguard Squad, Shrike's presence doesn't change that). So why would the presence of two ICs change it?

 

I assert that it does not, and the words "squad" and "unit" are interchangeable.

[Arikel]

Ic's can be joined together to form a squad(or unit if you prefer), as many ic's as you want can join any unit(squad). Once they are joined, they become one meta unit that includes all the component parts. Shrike's rule confers infiltrate to all members of his squad(unit). You could potentially infiltrate Shrike, A chaplain, 3 techmarines, and any squad of your choice and it would be totally legal, as they are all considered to be models in his squad for the purposes of the game and rules concerning how ic's work together to join units.

[thade]

This is what I'm saying. I wonder why people haven't concluded, as we have, that the words "squad" and "unit" are the same?

 

Were it the case that Shrike's ability wouldn't work with other ICs, wouldn't it have wording analogous to that of Heroic Intervention? (HI states that it doesn't work if others join the unit/squad.)

[Bannus]

Ic's can be joined together to form a squad(or unit if you prefer), as many ic's as you want can join any unit(squad). Once they are joined, they become one meta unit that includes all the component parts. Shrike's rule confers infiltrate to all members of his squad(unit). You could potentially infiltrate Shrike, A chaplain, 3 techmarines, and any squad of your choice and it would be totally legal, as they are all considered to be models in his squad for the purposes of the game and rules concerning how ic's work together to join units.

Yes, they do form a single "unit" I don't dispute that - but does that whole unit then retain Infiltrate? Does the "*" take effect or not?

 

Does Shrike's ability actually extend to the whole conglomerate of IC's and the squad? Since it doesn't specifically say it can - we have to assume it cannot.

 

Rules are by permission and not omission. If it doesn't actually say it does, then we have to assume it does not.

[thade]

That is an awkward place we seem to disagree, Bannus. If it's true that the words "unit" and "squad" are synonymous, then it certainly does confer to whatever form of unit he's a member of.

 

There's no clear definition of "squad" in the BRB and, as I previously summarized, all instances of the word "squad" in Codex Astartes are interchangeable with the word "unit"...which is clearly defined in the BRB. Unit = Squad.

 

What is not satisfactory about this?

[Zynk Kaladin]

The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an independent character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule." pg 74

 

But Shrike can give infiltrate. Since Shrike is giving infiltrate to the unit (chappy and 'rines) both Shrike and the unit share infiltrate. The rules are not lost because then the unit shares infiltrate with Shrike.

 

"They can join other independent characters though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!" pg48

 

"In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase."

 

I think its clear enough as Shrikes rules says: "Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from infiltrate". This refers to the previously mentioned conglomerate because they, in effect, are one uber squad. This uber squad of ICs if each model is in 2" coherency can join a friendly unit; lets say an assault squad. Therefore, the assault squad, chappy, libby, techmarine, a soda can proxy of a farseer as long as they are in 2" coherency of each other and are led by Shrike gain infiltrate.

 

 

I can understand why a chaplain couldn't infiltrate 'cus they yell a lot and make all sorts of angry liturgies, but I think if Shrike really wanted him to come then he'd bound and gag him :(

[greatcrusade08]

I dont want to step on any toes here and dont make for a great wordsmith, but it seems a strange point to argue.

Basically some special characters have rules that confer to the unit even if the USR is one that normally doesnt confer (the -*- in the BRB).

In this case it wouldnt matter what the unit was he was joining, the rule would confer,

 

Once an Ic is attached to a unit, then its treated as part of that unit for movement, shooting and set up etc (assault being notably different).. with this as a sole argument its not a hard stretch to say that shrike can infiltrate a unit AND an attached IC.

Theres definately nothing to say he cant!

 

Also i dont agree with the 'iniative' order of ICs joining a unit, Shrikes rule is different to the BRB -*- and will never be lost by joining with another unit/IC.. so it wouldnt matter what order they joined with the unit, the rule still confers.

Now consider that infiltrate can only be used during set up and an iniative order of joining is never even needed, they all deploy as one unit and therefore neither IC has 'joined' the squad using the terms in the BRB, they simply start as part of the squad.

 

Ill add one to the list can a libby gate with a squad and attached IC.. i think if we start putting rules inplace on these things the implications will reach far and wide.

[Voltaire]

I'll have to say "no", and here is why:

 

It states "models in his squad". Is the Chaplain "in" the squad for purposes of Infiltrate?

 

No. He can be attached to the squad or join the squad - but he is never actually "in" the squad.

 

Shrike - as an IC - can attach himself to a single unit. That unit can be the squad or the Chaplain (so he could infiltrate the Chaplain) - but not both.

 

Sure, you can attach the Chaplain to the squad, but because Infiltrate has that nice little "*" next to it, the entire combined unit of Shrike-squad-Chappy then lose the ability.

 

 

Chaplains are also an IC and for all intents and purposes, with the exception of close combat, are considered a part of the joined unit.

 

Therefore they can infiltrate with Shrike and the vanguard because they are considered a single squad.

[thade]

I'll have to say "no", and here is why:

 

It states "models in his squad". Is the Chaplain "in" the squad for purposes of Infiltrate?

 

No. He can be attached to the squad or join the squad - but he is never actually "in" the squad.

 

Shrike - as an IC - can attach himself to a single unit. That unit can be the squad or the Chaplain (so he could infiltrate the Chaplain) - but not both.

 

Sure, you can attach the Chaplain to the squad, but because Infiltrate has that nice little "*" next to it, the entire combined unit of Shrike-squad-Chappy then lose the ability.

 

 

Chaplains are also an IC and for all intents and purposes, with the exception of close combat, are considered a part of the joined unit.

 

Therefore they can infiltrate with Shrike and the vanguard because they are considered a single squad.

 

See here how "squad" and "unit" were used as synonyms? As if they mean the same thing? Note that it didn't seem weird, because it makes sense. :P

 

...

 

Is this thing on?

 

Squads and units are the same thing!! (Please tell me you read the things I typed-ed!)