Need advice for Salamanders

[Gothical]

This thread isn't about army lists - it's about ideas and thoughts on what the heck to take to create a certain style of force/tactics from which I can eventually draw up a list.

 

I'm having a lot of trouble at the moment. I'm trying to build a fluffy, yet relatively powerful Salamander list (it's not going to be competitive, but I don't want it getting tabled within a couple of turns by half-tournament lists) in the 1500 - 2000 point region.

 

Trouble is, every time I put an army list up online, it gets ripped to shreds - I just don't seem to be able to nail anything down that actually works. And I don't want to use Vulkan (preferring to use a model that was a relatively expensive conversion as a standard Captain, valuing Combat Tactics and so on) which never goes down *too* well.

 

I'm trying to build an army that can take-and-hold objectives. Either actual in-game objectives, or (when they're not around) a force that can get into a good attacking position - relying on Tactical Squads to actually claim the objective and riddle the enemy with bullets, and then have a decently "weighty" close-combat unit to re-enforce and act as a counter-assault as the enemy responds.

 

Here's my very simple "core" of HQ and 2 Troops.

 

Captain: Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer & Iron Halo. (can be counted as Artificer Armour). 140

Tactical Squad 1- Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Power Weapon. 9 Marines: 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Rhino. 220

Tactical Squad 2- Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Power Weapon. 9 Marines: 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Rhino. 220

 

580 points spent.

 

The Tactical Squads are flexible and mobile, and should do a good job of taking-and-holding, at least in one small section of the board (I like my armies to work in "divisions" that are mutually-supportive whilst all-rounders within themselves).

 

I'm thinking of grabbing an extra Tactical Squad to give the "wing" some real impact; Power Fist, Combi-Melta, Meltagun, Plasma Cannon & Rhino for 250 points (and a "force" of 830pts).

 

Obviously it's not yet a list - Captain needs somewhere to hide, and it needs firepower. But those elements are rather easier to deduce to oneself, it's the ever-annoying problem for short-ranged armies of the Assault Phase that I need some sound tactical/unit advice on.

 

My advancing element doesn't seem too bad, but it's not the strongest in close-combat - Tactical Marines are designed for shooting, not fighting. However, frequently I find that as the enemy responds to an attack from 2-3 Tactical Squads they tend to divert some of their best units to take them on (which works well if you have other units to sneak secondary objectives or cause havoc) and so they really need some defence in close-combat (that extends beyond a mere Power Fist/Weapon on the Sergeant).

 

What are the decent combat units in the Marine army? What works well as "counter-charge" to deliver the knock-out punch? Whenever I have an idea that works, it gets torn apart (the reasons I'm given are to the right of the hyphen):

 

Command Squads - plain and simply suck without bikes.

Dreadnoughts - should be dual-AC thus suck in combat, too fragile.

Ironclad Dreadnoughts - should have Drop Pods.

Venerable Dreadnought - too expensive.

Terminators - Assault Terminators are better.

Assault Terminators - need a Land Raider.

Assault Terminators in a Land Raider - Land Raiders work best in pairs.

Assault Marines - don't pack enough punch.

Vanguard - too expensive for the punch they pack.

Scouts - WS3 is not good enough (I don't want them anyway, as Salamanders don't field too many).

 

Seems I just can't win sometimes :P. Now most of those comments are true for dedicated "assault" elements, but what works well as a counter-charge (where Drop Pods are inappropriate really)?

 

Assault Terminators without a Land Raider (and teleporting)? With "Homers" to make sure they land where you want them - it shouldn't be too awful, though you are left at the mercies of reserve rolls. Or would "Tactical" units be better - they bring heavy firepower, and are as offensive as the TH/SS ones, but obviously are (more than) a tad more vulnerable to the enemy response

 

Dreadnoughts (any type)? They can keep pace with the Rhinos as they are counter-charge only (doesn't matter if they arrive 1 turn late), however they are vulnerable to enemy anti-tank guns, particularly if they make up most of the armour in the army.

 

++

 

So what should I take to act as a counter-charge element (ideally 2 units, for redundancy purposes and to fit between the 3 squads nicely - but I guess one potent unit could work)?

 

Can a list designed to roll up, unleash a wall of Bolter fire, nab the objective/"high ground", then deploy an "anvil" to take the enemy's assault and deal it a fatal blow, actually work on the table-top?

 

Many thanks if anyone can help out.

[Justicar Valius]

Are you sure that you want to do this kind of army list, it's hard to do at this points level. But there are a few things that apply to all Sm lists.

 

Never give a captain a weapon that wastes his I5, i.e give him a relic blade.

You have taken power weapons on your sergeants, why not a power fist?

plasma gun and multi melta work much better than flamer and multi melta (equal range, both are better at 12", both can hit light armour).

 

As you said you want this kind of list I won't post up a 2000 point Vulkan list that I think would be effective but if you change your mind just shoot me a PM.

[Jackelope King]

Are you sure that you want to do this kind of army list, it's hard to do at this points level. But there are a few things that apply to all Sm lists.

 

Never give a captain a weapon that wastes his I5, i.e give him a relic blade.

You have taken power weapons on your sergeants, why not a power fist?

plasma gun and multi melta work much better than flamer and multi melta (equal range, both are better at 12", both can hit light armour).

 

As you said you want this kind of list I won't post up a 2000 point Vulkan list that I think would be effective but if you change your mind just shoot me a PM.

I've gotta disagree on recommending fists and plasma guns. They're expensive upgrades without enough benefit to justify it.

 

A power fist does have more of a place in a salamanders list (if you include Vulkan) if only because you're losing Combat Tactics anyway, and deserves more of a look than I'd give it in a pure Vanilla Chapter. If you're going sans-Vulkan, you're usually going to get most of the benefit of the fist out of the squad's special weapons anyway. I've done the numbers, and a fist gives you a very narrow advantage only when charging Monstrous Creatures with most of their wounds left and an even narrower advantage against Dreads vs. shooting, and using Combat Tactics to escape close combat and then shooting again. We've hashed it to death and people still don't believe it, but it's important to note. That said, if you use Vulkan, it's definitely worth a second look. No Combat Tactics means you're going to get stuck in more often and be less able to shoot, so I think the power fist becomes more valuable. I'd still save those for last in your list, though, and make sure you're upgraded in the other areas where you'd want to be upgraded (getting heavy flamers on your multimelta speeders, for instance).

 

Plasma guns are expensive and don't do enough of anything to anyone other than foot Marines to matter a whole heck of a lot. They're about as effective as killing transports as an autocannon... at a quarter of the range with a chance to kill the guy carrying them and on a less vulnerable platform. Except at very, very high points values when they basically turn into part of a mid-game alpha strike, I really don't think they're worth it for Marines. A Meltagun can do most of what a plasma gun can do for cheaper with the added bonus of being AP1 and thus being a threat to all vehicles in the game. Plus, if you use Vulkan, rerolls to hit are nice.

[Gen. Confusion]

Sounds like you need a good cleaner unit. Bikes are probable the best cleaner unit. Assault marines are pretty good as well. You can use either of these and I think you will be happy with them. Just don't expect them to take on full strenght units and win. They are used to finish off units that have already been wittled down by the rest of your army. This would also give you a place to put your captain. Strap on a jump pack or ride a bike and switch out the TH for a relic blade.

[thade]

For my money, the best counter-charge unit we have as SM are assault squads. On the front lines, they die so fast they're not worth their points. But as a home-base defense unit, they are AWESOME. Anybody closes with my lines, and OVER my lines goes my jump team, slamming into their unit with 30 attacks on the charge (40 if I pay for vanilla flying vanguard). They hit HARD.