Devastators and Heay Weapons

[captain sox]

Hello Folks!

 

I've been looking over my Devastator Squads and have a question. How many of each of the heavy weapons do you have in your army? Not how many/ which combo do you field. I'm just curious because I have 6 ML, 6 PC, 5 LC, 6MM and 6 HB's. Even if I fielded all 3 Dev Squads at one time, I'd have way too many weapons sitting on the shelf. I've never even played with Melta's in a Dev Squad.

 

The reason I'm asking is because a friend is interested in trading for the extras. All of my Tac Squads have their Heavies assigned to them already as well, so these Dev's are just extra models waiting for a battle that will never come (in my army at least).

 

So let me know, how many of each heavy do you have?

 

Thanks!!

[Jackelope King]

Devs are just weak-sauce in most Marine armies these days. At very low points values, I think you can get away with them, when you can't put enough vehicles on the table for them to be anything other than a stun-locked piece of terrain. And I think that at 2500 points and above, spamming missile launcher devs can be nasty (though Space Wolves do it a lot better). So yeah, I don't use many Devs :tu:

 

In tactical squads, it's almost always a multimelta. My tactical squads roll up in Rhinos, park mid-field and hold it while the rest of my army gets to killing the other guy, so being able to put up a big 24" bubble of "Don't drive here" is nice. Once in awhile, when I'm playing a much shootier army (like when I'm combat-squading with a Razorback Spam list), I'll go with Missile Launchers for the range.

 

The other ones don't see much use. Las Cannons see the day once in a blue moon, but I almost never use Heavy Bolters or Plasma Cannons anymore.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I have about 2 of each heavy weapon, 3 in some case. I dont have very many as I usually supplement my dev squads with my 4 combi-preds I have available

 

im an armor whore ;)

 

in my 2k list the heavy weapons i have in the hands of my tacs are a multi melta and 2 lascannons, my stern have combi weapons and mounted on my armor I have 6 lascannons and 2 twin linked lascannons another multi melta and 3 autocannons and 1 heavy bolter

[DarkGuard]

In my collection I have 4 missile launchers, 1 lascannon, 2 plasma cannons, 2 multi-meltas and 4 heavy bolters. In my current army I use only 3 missile launchers, 1 lascannon, 1 plasma cannon and 2 multi-meltas. Devs have the MLs and LC, and split fire through Combat Squads on vehicles, whereas, plasma cannon Tactical Squad hold ground while multi-melta squads advance. I too find that I can have a few heavies sitting on the sidelines, but that's brilliant, because it gives you versatility.

[thade]

When I run Devs, I do one of two things...

 

super-expensive: 3 lascannons, 3 vanilla, 1 serg. These guys EAT wraithlords...or at least keep very large firing lanes on the table clear of enemy movement

 

reasonable and arguably more effective: 4 ML, fill out with vanilla marines, 1 serg. Combat Squad. Now I've got two teams of marines with two ML so I can effectively separate that fire if I want to, or I can still focus them for bigger tank popping.

 

The reason I use a dev squad is so my tac marines don't have to waste a round of fire on a vehicle when they could be both moving and rapid-firing infantry. I also use a Dread now with two TL-autocannons for transport popping, for this same reason.

[Ming]

I'm experimenting.

 

Anti-tank dev squads - no more than 3 similar AT weapons is sufficient, so an good example is 3 MLs, sergeant, extra guy. Depending on metagame, put a PW on the sergeant in case they get assaulted while sitting still. Keep the squad in cover with a good arc of fire. Reasonable to damage or pop a vehicle every turn. 135 points if using MLs. Compare to a AT pred.

 

Ant-personnel squad - go with 4 antipersonnel weapons. 4 HBs is very effective. Swap one out for a PC if the local game is heavy on terminators or MCs or high T opponents. Same as before. Hide in cover, sergeant, 4 AP weapons. 150 points for HB squad - compare to a dakka pred.

 

I try not to use LCs in dev squads, because they are more expensive there than anywhere else. My standard is the las-plas tac squad for cost efficiency.

[thade]

I'm experimenting.

 

Anti-tank dev squads - no more than 3 similar AT weapons is sufficient, so an good example is 3 MLs, sergeant, extra guy. Depending on metagame, put a PW on the sergeant in case they get assaulted while sitting still. Keep the squad in cover with a good arc of fire. Reasonable to damage or pop a vehicle every turn. 135 points if using MLs. Compare to a AT pred.

 

Ant-personnel squad - go with 4 antipersonnel weapons. 4 HBs is very effective. Swap one out for a PC if the local game is heavy on terminators or MCs or high T opponents. Same as before. Hide in cover, sergeant, 4 AP weapons. 150 points for HB squad - compare to a dakka pred.

 

I try not to use LCs in dev squads, because they are more expensive there than anywhere else. My standard is the las-plas tac squad for cost efficiency.

 

I used to do this, but I decided that devoting an entire tac squad to firing at a transport or tank was wasiting 9/10 of it's fire power. If I want the tac squad to have opportunistic fire power, I go for the cheaper plasma cannon (still reasonable against anti-armor and devastating against troops) or the old fashioned (and free) ML. Though I've now started fielding tac squads with no upgrades at all, with the sole purpose of gunning down infantry.

 

Dev squads are for anti-tank/large-thing in my mind, with their huge range and need to stay stationary. If I'm going to use an anti-infantry dev squad, it'd be because I was defending a position and knew the bad guys would come to me. Heavy Bolters have never dazzled me, but have been fun on occasion.

[Koremu]

I have plenty of Heavy Weapons, but no Devastators.

 

They really aren't worth it in general all comers play.

[thade]

I have plenty of Heavy Weapons, but no Devastators.

 

They really aren't worth it in general all comers play.

 

I don't disagree, but I just realized I didn't say anything with regards to that. All of my posting so far has been of the mind "if you want to use Devs, this is how I recommend how."

 

As Koremu says tho, they are often not worth their points. To make a Dev squad durable, you really have to take a vanilla marine for each upgraded marine as "ablative wounds". For the same cost or even a little less, consider a dreadnought with one or two TL-autocannons. More durable, easier to hide in cover, and it serves much the same purpose: anti light and medium armor.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Poor devs have no love from GW. Ah well, FIELD THE PREDS!

 

Lascannon dev squad on a hill is painful. Just ask my Space Wolf buddy.

[Xeonic]

I feel that devastators are actually pretty respectable, but in terms of cost efficiency they are beat out by other choices, IMO.

My favorite setup is 1x las, 3x ML, 10 men, sarge with bolter or BP+CCW. BS5 lascannon that can be combat squadded off, and 3 MLs that can kill light transport or troops.

 

I wouldn't waste them on antipersonnel duties, there are more cost efficient choices for the task, tacticals and sternguard both do the job pretty well and are more mobile and scoring. However if I were to take them for anti personnel, I'd kit them out with at least three-four plasma cannon, otherwise they'll be less effective than a sternguard or tac squad setup for the same. Expensive as hell, but anything that drops 4 plasma cannon templates is a real threat to anything remotely squishy.

My tac squads and sternguard give me the bulk of my anti infantry firepower, I have plasma cannon models for each(2x for sternguard!), and that plasma gun or flamer(or sternguard combis and hellfire bolts!) go a long way towards making the squad more effective at that role. The fact that both choices pay an insignificant amount of points for plasma cannon also helps.

 

I kinda miss my 4th ed. devs and bring them out every so often for fun games, but usually just an 8-10 man squad with 3ML and/or a lascannon. Missile launchers make them effective vs low T hordes(or ones with poor saves!), krak missiles are reasonable at putting wounds onto any MCs or marine equivalents also, as well as being capable of killing light to medium(AV13 or less) armor, with the BS5 lascannon being pretty effective overall as well.

 

As far as I'm concerned, since for the price of a 5 man dev squad w/2ML, you can take either a combi pred(2x S7 and 2x S9 shots) or dual TLAC rifleman dread(4x twinlinked S7 shots!), they're rarely worth taking. That's from a purely "what they bring to the table" perspective. Of course, many prefer them because in cover and with plenty of bodies they're virtually immune to high S, low AP fire, can't be shaken or stunned, or killed in one shot, but for me cost efficiency for how many shots they bring to the table are an issue, and they don't do anything for my armor saturation. In addition to that they need to be stationary to be effective at all, where the other choices can move quite a bit if needed(at worst wasting a turn or two of fire to redeploy).

 

There is one interesting thing I've seen done with them though, and that is parked rhino shooting. Take one 5-man dev squad with 2 heavies in a rhino, turn 1 drive to a firelane and pop smoke, turn 2 open fire with 2 heavy weapons of choice. The issue here is that for 10 points more you can do the same thing with sternguard and have well, sternguard on the table. And they can score if you take Pedro. ;)

 

EDIT: I would of course take devs if I was doing a themed company or "blue tide" marine horde list, MEQ body spam. In an environment with no tanks, they'd be a pretty reasonable choice for static fire support.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Devastators are an interesting choice. Like most I have always been of the opinion that there are more cost effective ways to field heavy weaponry but I have been trialling 1 x lascannon + 3 x missile launchers hiding in bolstered ruins from my thunderfire's tech marine and have actually been impressed. Synergy with the thunderfire cannon is the key here offering the squad a 3+ cover save. This loadout costs 150pts and the only reason I use a lascannon is I only have 3 marine mounted missile launchers in my army!

 

This has led me to putting my remaining lascannon, on of my heavy bolters and my plasma cannon (the other is converted onto my dreadnought :P:) ) into my tac squads which has supported their roles wonderfully i.e. anti infantry and shots of opportunity. I have a multimelta and a heavy bolter to swap around as and when I feel like it.

 

 

4 x missile launchers would roll in at 130 pts only 10 more than a combi pred and the unit is easier to hide and has more killing power. 5 'ablative wounds' bring this unit to 210 points and the amount of firepower and/or assault specialists your opponent has to commit to remove this unit is almost worth it in itself so don't write them off - like everything you need to ask yourself "how do I get the most out of this unit" and in the devs case for me it is in synergy with a thunderfire cannon / tech marine / Lysander. Sticking something good in assault next to the unit works well as it can catch fast assault units your opponent might send as the dev squad is likely to out shoot anything at range. A dread even a rifleman dread would work well for this as it could tarpit assault units if nothing else.

[Giga]

Plasma cannons are absolutely awesome on tactical squads.

 

If you really wanna run devs (though I dunno why you'd insist on devs, seeing as predators and typhoon speeders are cheaper, better, more survivable, and have cooler models) I'd say 4 missile launchers in a 7 man unit is the best overall combo.

[Warprat]

Vehicles are perhaps more cost effective, but generally must stand off at range, or risk being melta'd, or shot in the side, or assaulted. Devs are heavy infantry, with all the power (and beyond) of a Tac squad. No, they can't score like troop can... but niether can vehicles.

 

 

I think another interesting comparison is 2 missile launchers in a Dev squad vs a fist in a Tac squad. The missile launchers can reach across the table and be effective turn after turn, while the fist will probably only be used for a couple, and must get up close and personal.

 

People do not mind having a fist idle all game long, if it's not needed. Why then, must Devs always NOT be idle. Why can't the total power of bolter, special, CC ability and heavy be used to maximum effect? I think new tactics need to be developed beyond the stand and shoot from cover...

 

 

 

 

 

One idea is a Drop Pod. Setup in cover with empty pod, or drop on squishy units and blast with heavies later.

 

Another idea is to spam three 5-6 man units with 4 missile launchers each. Sure, each squad can be taken down more easily, but the enemy must endure the increased firepower first.

 

 

Both ideas will have to have other units supporting, in perhaps non traditional ways to make them work. But I think Devs have a potential that has yet to be unlocked.

 

Warprat ;)

[Commander Sasha]

...I have been trialling 1 x lascannon + 3 x missile launchers hiding in bolstered ruins from my thunderfire's tech marine and have actually been impressed. Synergy with the thunderfire cannon is the key here offering the squad a 3+ cover save.

I do exactly the same as this; TFC in one corner and Devs in the other gives great table coverage, with an objective marker in the ruin with the Devs. Though not scoring, they are contesting, so the enemy has got to run right into the fire to knock them off.

[Wildfire]

I feel devs died when 5th came along and killed the las/plas gunline. Todays armies are all about mech and mobility.

 

That being said, weapons I feel I'd use if I fielded devs are mainly missile spam or heavy bolter spam. Plasma cannons spammed aren't much better than one or two plasma cannons on their own. Lascannons are way too expensive, particularily in dev squads. Multi-meltas are area denial weapons and you don't need large numbers for their fear factor to be effective.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Both ideas will have to have other units supporting, in perhaps non traditional ways to make them work. But I think Devs have a potential that has yet to be unlocked.

 

Warprat -_-

 

I have to agree with you here bud and that's why I'm exploring devs in games. One option I had considered is to drop pod 10 devs with 4 x multi melta into the middle of the board and combat squad them. Aggressive and really throws a spanner in the works for a mech assault force (For hoard substitute HB and an all comers substitute ML).

 

This does leave them very vulnerable though and you would have to synergise with another imminent threat such as a dread variant or two either next to the devs or into the enemy's face, tooled landspeeder storms turbo-ing etc - depends on what you have even if you just rush up a couple of tacticals towards them but isolate them at your peril.

 

I can see people rallying against this saying I'm basically feeding 265pt; 2 x KP to my enemy but people do this with sternguard...

 

Thoughts?

[Ookami_81]

I bought a deva squad and build them to have varying heavy weapons for tacts. But I tried them on some occasions and I think they are good. Maybe apparently not cost effective, but usefull when hostiles are waiting for tanks as firebase. Then begins the fun.

 

I run my deva, when I've got the points (250): one sarge bolter and chainsword (he just look awesome !), one lascan, one ML, two HB, 5 vanillas.

Combat squad them, sarge + lascan + 3 vanillas, and you've got one of the toughest transport killer of the game, or a true sniper (not like peashooters scouts without sights ;) ). The others engage light or heavy troops, and occasionnaly, a little tougher things like speeders. They are my dedicated Kopters sweepers, the "get out of my sky" thing.

[Warprat]

One option I had considered is to drop pod 10 devs with 4 x multi melta into the middle of the board and combat squad them. Aggressive and really throws a spanner in the works for a mech assault force (For hoard substitute HB and an all comers substitute ML).

 

This does leave them very vulnerable though and you would have to synergise with another imminent threat such as a dread variant or two either next to the devs or into the enemy's face, tooled landspeeder storms turbo-ing etc - depends on what you have even if you just rush up a couple of tacticals towards them but isolate them at your peril.

 

I can see people rallying against this saying I'm basically feeding 265pt; 2 x KP to my enemy but people do this with sternguard...

 

Thoughts?

 

For versitility and cost, it's hard to beat missile launchers. Although the muli-melta option also has appeal. My preference for a mixed squad is las cannon, plasma cannon, 2x missile launcher.

 

9 Blood Angel Devs with Sanguary Priest + Pod (w/locator beacon) looks very interesting... the four missile launchers being a measly 40pts, are not a huge consideration point wise. In standard back field deployment you get cover saves + feel no pain. If deploying via pod, you can run to cover and shoot turn 2. Or you can rapid fire on landing, and shoot heavies on turn 2. The sarge and Priest can both take combi-meltas for a good chance of popping a vehicle when landing, or could be tooled up with combi-flamers to help augment the rapid firing bolters + pistols. Again, feel no pain helping to dull the counter fire. You can even, later on, charge these guys into CC if necessary, and do reasonably well with pistols, all round, to soften up and str5 and int 5 to hit hard early. Add power type weapons if you do this often.

 

Another option would be to spend the extra points and go with plasma cannons. Again, feel no pain a natural here... Using another unit to open up transports (like a Rifleman dread,) the four plasma cannons could then really put the hurt on the former survivors.

 

Warprat ;)

[Xeonic]

It kind of irritates me that both blood angels and space wolves have better devastator equivalents than codex marines.

If my devestators could split fire or got a discount on heavy weapons+feel no pain option I'd take them a lot more often. ;)

[Ookami_81]

Giving that SW and BA are more CC oriented chapters, it's kind of a bad joke, actually...

I'm not a huge fan of the new BA codex for many things, and I don't find it broken or cheesy. But for once, I would really love to be able to give FnP to plasma cannon units. If I could do that, I think I would try the 4 plasma cannons dev, just to see my regular opponents pale. :D

[chapter master 454]

Personally I sing praise of Missle launchers and plasma cannons and slag (pun intended) the meltas and multi-meltas alot due to their inability to be useful other than hunting tanks. Missle launchers and plasma cannons are the weapons I use because in the field of battle utility is key, having a deticated AT unit is bad utility as they are stuck targeting terminators or tanks and while they get the job done: they become nothing more than a few shots plinking away at squads at sub-par performance.

 

I too am an armour lover (and have been infamous for fielding 3 land raiders but eldar players in GW falkirk tend to have their answer in the form of ether the stupidly retarded lance rule or in the belly of a flat-out star engine transport: fire dragons. I stopped my raider spam some time ago but with BA out, I will play them once more to just deep strike 3 of them!) however Devasators provide excellent mounts for weapons such as missle launchers and plasma cannons due to their ability to hide away in buildings and such and level squads (I once had 2 gun servitors with a master of the forge in a building, those rules for buildings easily won me the game. Shows how broken they are because I wasn't worried at all about my rear line shooters).

 

I will one day field 3 squads with 4 plasma cannons each, just to see what 12 plasma blasts a turn can do to an enemy army!

[Xeonic]

Eh...I wouldn't deploy more than one Plasma Cannon vs a tank, a squad of 4 plasma cannon is terrible vs a tank, where a squad with 1 and 3 ML is better(4 distinct chances to hit). The rules for shooting vehicles with multiple blast weapons are pretty crap, you roll for scatter once and all 4 weapons would hit the same spot...generally if you hit this means 4 hits, and if you miss it means 4 misses. P60 of the BRB by the way.

Yes, you hit the same % of times, but the results are sharply skewed, a miss is a total miss, and a hit is as many hits as you have weapons.

 

If you had 4 plasma cannon in a dev squad the only way around this is to combat squad, so you have two chances to hit the same vehicle.

 

Maybe I hate that rule because I'm terrible at rolling for scatter with blast weapons. :)

I seem to be able to hit my own vehicles and troops with them though.

[Excubitor]

My main fire-base I'm trialing atm is 10 devs, 4 HB, sergeant with Storm Bolter, Lysander joining the unit, 5+ scouts with snipers and camo cloaks (sometimes with telion or a heavy weapon) and the thunderfire cannon.

 

If you put an objective inside a multi-story ruin (like we always do) put the devs in the bottom level with Lysander, the scouts the level above with the objective, and the thunderfire somewhere to give it good line of sight to the area around this. This also works especially good in a city fight battle with the power generator stratagem (lots of re-rolls is good :( ). The thunderfire uses subterranean rounds (I still don't know why people fire any other round against ANYBODY coming at them) to slow down units coming at the objective, the devs and scouts put the pain on them (scouts always targeting MC first, devs anything larger than 10 men first). very hard to shift, even if they survive to assault. 3+ armour, 3+ cover (2+ for the scouts), Lysander to....discourage....any assaulting units, and a whole lot of firepower. Tad expensive, but I find it effective for what it does.

 

I also sometimes run 3HB + 1PC or 3ML + 1PC, both work well, although the ML+PC combo I find far more effective. I've also trialed 1 Lascannon with 3 HB to try a combat squad multi-threat option, but my non-Godhammer Lascannon bad luck stopped me quickly (4 misses at BS5 in 1 game with it....seriously :P )

 

Devastators are a unit to build for one job only, either anti-tank or anti-infantry. Anti-tank is too expensive for my tastes (lascannons in points, Multi-meltas in range) so ML and HB always win out for me, with a PC for the unexpected guests. Personally, I like to field them like I do assault marines - as a support unit, part of a group dedicated to a task. On their own, not really worth it, with a group to bring out their potential, devastating.

[Brother Gaius]

Sadly, I haven't used a dev team since 5th ed came out. The increased cost of the team, non scoring, the fact EVERYTHING can get cover pretty easily and a few other factors just haven't made them a good choice. I prefer to get my heavy weapons by putting them in tactical squads. Combat squading makes it so you can have scoring heavy weapons on your home objectives, and small tank hunting/assaulting/infantry mowing sections as well. It does mean more KP's on the board, but it also means cheaper heavies and a lot more flexibility. The improvements to the Typhoon and the Thunderfire Cannon were probably the last nails in the coffin of my Dev teams.

 

For the amount I spend on a single devastator team, I can usually put in a Thunderfire & a Dread, or a pair (at least) of Typhoons. Consider the paired Typhoons. 4 Krack/Frags and 6 HB shots a round, while on the move. They are not as durable as a Dev team, but they bring alot more to the board.