You fly, you die?

[Ming]

This came up in discussion - New BA and other transports are fast and can move more than 12 inches, sometimes to 18 or even 24 inches and are considered moving "all out". This has led to interesting thoughts on the BRB rule mechanics for these kind of vehicles.

 

Q1. Except for a few vehicles that have exceptions, the BRB rules state that you cannot dismount / disembark from a vehicle that moved all out. If a vehicle moves all out and is wrecked or exploded, are the passengers killed?

 

I note that ork trukks moving all-out and wreck/explode ramshackle instead by special rules in their codex. What other circumstances / special rules can you think of that do similar things? Few other vehicles seem to have protection from the BRB line of reason in Q1...

 

Q2. Some special units have a special rule that allows them to immediately allow you to detect and then shoot at a unit that deepstrikes near it, before the deep striking unit can do anything else. Does this mean before passengers could disembark from it or after? For example, could a deep striking landraider become detected by a GKI, for instance, instantly targeted on arrival by allowable nearby units / retinue, and wrecked/destroyed? if so, what happens to passengers (see Q1)? Same for drop pods, landers, storms, stormwavens, bug pooping bigger bugs, etc.

[Cedric]

A1. There's this rule called emergency disembarkment in the book somewhere, off the top of my head I'd think that'd be applicable in this situation.

 

A2. This was FAQ ed to an extent regarding Drop Pods. Once a pod lands, the squad inside IMMEDIATELY disembarks. The errata ruled this as for each DP, you have too choose between either the DP or the squad(s) emerging from it to shoot at. If the squad inside splits into combat squads, this gives you 3 targets to choose from (but only one shot).

 

A deepstriking landraider is another matter. The sequence is as follows 1. Raider appear 2. Mystics detect it, allowing a single unit to shoot it. 3. The raider gets shot at and possibly destroyed.

If it gets destroyed, treat the unit inside as you normally would any embarked squad. (e.g. they disembark immediately and roll for pinning/wounds).

[Thor{DoH}]

A1) This is tough and the opinions are many. I feel what happens to the passengers is completely decided upon by the entry on pg. 67, 'Effects of Damage Results on Passengers' regardless of how fast it moved. On one hand we have an entry saying you can't embark/disembark if it moved flat out and then we have an entry on how to handle damage results, which takes precedence? I feel the statement of embarking/disembarking regarding moving flat out is concerning voluntary action but I can't back that up. I feel this was noted because in the entry for embarking/disembarking (pg. 66), it makes no mention of vehicles speed in regards to getting in or out of the vehicle so fast vehicles were notated to avoid people moving flat out and jumping in or out of the vehicle. If the intent was to destroy a unit inside a transport if wrecked/destroyed while having moved flat out I believe it would be explicitly stated as such.

 

A2) See A1

[thade]

I went digging though the BRB today regarding this very question and I ended up settling the way Thor did. The only place I found that addresses Wrecked/Destroyed results with regards to passengers occur in the Transport section of the rules. Were it different for fast/skimmers it would be listed there, but the only difference is that Immobilzed results when moving flat out -> crash/wrecked. Nothing new for passengers.

 

In the case where the skimmer is grounded/wrecked, its thematically a crash and the marines pile out. (That stands to reason.) In the case where it's an Explodes result...well I guess they look awesome as they surf down on the burning shards of their former transport...all landing in coherency. :(

 

I would *like* to see a ruling that relates some how to the way they disembark at high speeds (ie via Deep Strike, perhaps without the staggering extra bad you get when DSing out of it normally at Flat Out), maybe force-scattering them some random distance behind the path of the flyer. I bet this came up and was quashed for being too complicated/confusing, and they just left it at the BRB's ruling. Fuel tanks go = shrapnel and people around (and inside) get hurt, but the huge skeleton still exists and crashes (maybe it's the crash that hurts the occupants and not the boom). Meanwhile, a Wrecked result is a controlled emergency landing, which doesn't hurt them. Though, in the Explodes case the body of the transport goes away.

 

Yea, I got nothing. Thor is on the money, and it's both fair and easy that way..but thematically I'm not satisfied.

[Mordekiem]

Passengers in a vehicle that moved flat out deal with a vehicle destroyed result the exact same as a vehicle that moved any other speed.

 

The reference to 'may not disembark' refers to voluntary movement. As mentioned before, if they intended the unit to suffer additional penalties as a result of the high speed they would have stated it.

 

Not complete RAW as others have pointed out. But it is quick and easy. Best not to try to read too much into the rules sometimes. :lol: If you do you end up with a 7+ page thread. ;)

[Sparhawk]

I say there is only one logical way to deal with this situation. Use the deep striking rules and modify the scatter distance based on the distance moved by the vehicle and the path that the vehicle traveled. Using this information we can determine the velocity (speed and distance) of the marines. We must then roll for wind direction and consult the Codex to determine how much drag the different kinds of armor and wargear create. We use this to create a modified marine velocity and, using the modified ballistics equation and assuming a planetary gravity equivalent to Terra.

 

Now to determine where the vehicle was hit on it's path we obviously need to look at the distance from the projectile would need to travel and the speed at which it would be traveling. Once we know where the vehicle was destroyed we then know the starting position of the marines so we can then determine their ending positions.

 

I really believe this is the simplest method of solving this....

 

Or we could just go with standard transport rules I guess, but that's really only if you want to overcomplicate things ;)

[Grey Mage]

I dunno... I think its pretty straightfoward:

pg. 67- if you cannot disembark, you are instead destroyed along with the vehicle.

pg. 70- you cannot disembark if your transport is going flat out, or was attempting to. But... thats only in the movement phase.

 

Thus, if your destroyed because your transport, thats probly already damaged, is going through dangerous terrain and is wrecked, then you are simply SOL.

 

Otherwise, with enemy shooting that is, you just disembark/are placed where the vehicle had been as normal.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

This came up in discussion - New BA and other transports are fast and can move more than 12 inches, sometimes to 18 or even 24 inches and are considered moving "all out". This has led to interesting thoughts on the BRB rule mechanics for these kind of vehicles.

 

Q1. Except for a few vehicles that have exceptions, the BRB rules state that you cannot dismount / disembark from a vehicle that moved all out. If a vehicle moves all out and is wrecked or exploded, are the passengers killed?

 

I note that ork trukks moving all-out and wreck/explode ramshackle instead by special rules in their codex. What other circumstances / special rules can you think of that do similar things? Few other vehicles seem to have protection from the BRB line of reason in Q1...

 

Q2. Some special units have a special rule that allows them to immediately allow you to detect and then shoot at a unit that deepstrikes near it, before the deep striking unit can do anything else. Does this mean before passengers could disembark from it or after? For example, could a deep striking landraider become detected by a GKI, for instance, instantly targeted on arrival by allowable nearby units / retinue, and wrecked/destroyed? if so, what happens to passengers (see Q1)? Same for drop pods, landers, storms, stormwavens, bug pooping bigger bugs, etc.

 

 

EDIT; and to encourage Thor that he is correct "A1) This is tough and the opinions are many. I feel what happens to the passengers is completely decided upon by the entry on pg. 67, 'Effects of Damage Results on Passengers' regardless of how fast it moved. On one hand we have an entry saying you can't embark/disembark if it moved flat out and then we have an entry on how to handle damage results, which takes precedence? I feel the statement of embarking/disembarking regarding moving flat out is concerning voluntary action but I can't back that up. I feel this was noted because in the entry for embarking/disembarking (pg. 66), it makes no mention of vehicles speed in regards to getting in or out of the vehicle so fast vehicles were notated to avoid people moving flat out and jumping in or out of the vehicle. If the intent was to destroy a unit inside a transport if wrecked/destroyed while having moved flat out I believe it would be explicitly stated as such."

it (BBB pg 70) says; "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase"

 

"That" movement phase, on the Turn it gets blown up, would be the enemy's Movement phase and the vehicle has not moved at all.

So the may not .... is not in effect anymore. :lol:

 

 

A1. The passengers are not killed. They cannot get out in the movement phase that the vehicle moved at "Flat-out Speed".

The vehicle gets destroyed in the opponents turn. That means they can get out just like any other passenger.

 

A2. They (the transport) gets shot before the passengers deploy. Deep striking things "count as having moved at Cruising Speed" and so the passengers can get out just as per usual.

[Ming]

A) Actually occurred to me in a tournament last night, if you can believe it! I was playing a game against a tough mech eldar opponent. We had two objectives to fight over. The game was tense and very tactical. He was under stress as he had first turn and had done poorly in the prior game.

 

After 4 turns of eldar tanks shooting at my stuff at long range, we are still at a 1 kp-0 kp game. Objectives and KPs determine the level of the win. Game ends turn 6 period...

 

Turn 5 - The eldar player turbo-boosted/star engined 3 of his 5 skimmer tanks to get 1 near his own objective, and to be ready on turn 6 to contest mine. My objective is a blockade / fighting square of rhinos, pod, and troops. Eldar is thinking about ramming my rhinos at full speed with his tanks, to create a hole for his other tanks or even troops to rush into to contest my objective. He needs the points of a high value win.

 

Stuff happens in his turn. Nothing to get into, except that he shakes my landspeeder squadron. He is desprately worried my speeders will contest his objective at the end game (a reverse eldar gambit). Somehow my speeders and vidi have lasted this long.

 

My turn 5 - my 2 speeder speeder squadron turbos 24 inches past his eldrad command tank and another turbo'ed skimmer tank, heading towards his objective. Then it happens...my apparently very lucky vindictor fires on the turboe'd all-out tank (it has been stunned or missing all game), which is transporting an unclear package of eldar troops. I deviate an inch, but spot on the hull still. He rolls his turbo save and misses it. His upgrades reduce the strength to an 8, but I pen. He causes me to roll 2 dice for the pen effect and take the lowest. I get a 5 and 6, becomes a 5. His turbo'ed tank is now a debris field. A wreck.

 

He dismounts his troops (selected nearly at random from the table, but was the largest squad and best armed) and quickly rolls for being pinned and makes the pin check.

 

Like the coach of the New England Patriots, I quickly throw down the red flag and say...waitaminute. Is this right?

 

Since he has unlabeled skimmers and not tracking his transported occupants (like a ball and cup game), it was apparent to me he deployed his highest value troops, who might have the chance now to shoot or assault my nearby speeders, thus protecting his objective.

 

I was also smarting from being mislead by another eldar player and a wolf player at ard boyz as to their codex-specific cheese.

 

I decided to challenged his ability to dismount. Using the arguments above in this thread. other players there provided thoughts to the subject and we consulted everything but the tarot and the edlar codex.

 

We ended up letting him roll a dice for it and he lost. Vehicle gone, troops gone.

 

Turn 6 - he did ram my rhino box with a fire prism at maxmimum velocity, but missed the damage roll. But his tank was now 2.95 inches from the objective...he was contesting by the slimmest of margins.

 

On my turn, my two shaken speeders flew to his objective. Two of my tac squads prepared to assault the fire prism, but a single meltagun does the deed, after a stack of eldar saves and modifiers. The prism is now a wreck.

 

OK...am looking at this game. I said "you know what, I don't want to have this game go really bad for anyone, so deploy your squad that was popped in the wreck, the full squad, and then assume you can shoot then assault my speeders...then we'll tally the damage..."

 

He did shoot with a full guardian squad and farseer. And got nothing. He then assaulted. And got one shaken speeder. The speeders lived.

 

I had 1 objective and a revised 2 KPs (giving back the guardians).

 

He had 1 KP. From killing a dev squad...

 

I won, we shook hands.

 

Overall, I think we addressed this OK. The eldar guy was pretty disappointed in the loss, but was more disappointed about the lack of kill points, and his failed strategy than anything else. His prior game that evening was a minor victory. He is used to handing down massacres in tournaments. He has tons of experience. I think I just got lucky...for just this instance.

 

I'll probably get slammed somewhere for this. But, this is how it played out.

 

I'm still stunned that a fire prism and 5 other eldar tanks failed to do any more damage. It was a fluke to be sure.

[ShinyRhino]

Since he has unlabeled skimmers and not tracking his transported occupants (like a ball and cup game), it was apparent to me he deployed his highest value troops, who might have the chance now to shoot or assault my nearby speeders, thus protecting his objective.

 

Yeah, you really need to force this player to write down or clearly label which squads are in which tanks. It's been pointed out more than once, and has happened to me as well. It's infuriating. You also want to watch his "tank shuffle" moves. The whole "move a tank 12" this way, move this one this way, and this one this way. Oh, wait, I really want #1 over there, and #3 over there. *swap, wiggle*" Results in some very dodgy measurement moves and possibly illegal positions.

 

As for the rule, looks to me like the passengers destroyed thing is just an additional detriment when a skimmer moves Flat Out, and is then Immobilized by a dangerous terrain test. It feels like it's designed to counter the tactic of using a Flat Out move to contest or claim an objective in cover on the last turn. RAW seems to support that as well.

If passengers die in the enemy shooting phase from a failed Flat Out cover save, what's the point of a Flat Out save for a transport at all? You could move 1" less, give up your save, and NOT lose an entire squad in addition to the tank. Allowing passengers to be insta-killed when in a Flat Out transport seems like it's an effective nullification of the cover save gained by moving that fast.

[Thor{DoH}]

Thought you might return to this thread ;)

 

I was actually just searching around a bit to see what the general consensus is on the interwebz and of course there isn't one. Both sides throw up valid arguments with neither side reaching an agreement on the matter. As we were saying at the shop last night, there needs to be an FAQ on this, or at the very least a shop agreement. Rolling it off was the only thing you could do. Letting him play it out was a nice thing to do. Him seeing it didn't matter anyway should have at least made it a bit less painful on him. The Eldar player we're discussing has had a run of bad games the past few weeks so I think you'll find that was fueling his argument even more.

[bystrom]

I dunno... I think its pretty straightfoward:

pg. 67- if you cannot disembark, you are instead destroyed along with the vehicle.

pg. 70- you cannot disembark if your transport is going flat out, or was attempting to. But... thats only in the movement phase.

 

Thus, if your destroyed because your transport, thats probly already damaged, is going through dangerous terrain and is wrecked, then you are simply SOL.

 

Otherwise, with enemy shooting that is, you just disembark/are placed where the vehicle had been as normal.

 

QFT.

Additionally, Emergency disembarkation only works if enemy models or impassible terrain are in the way, not if they can't disembark because of other reasons (such as vehicle destroyed in the movement phase when moving flat out).

 

BTW, no eldar tank reduces S of enemy weapons AND forces you to roll two dice on the vehicle damage table. The wave serpent (the one that can transport up to 12 guys and has a twin-linked heavy weapon) reduces the S of enemy fire (not from the rear amongst others though). Any other vehicle can take the Holofields upgrade, which forces you to roll two dice on the vehicle damage table. Note that the wave serpent can't take this (I'm not all-together certain of this though, I'm hoping someone will come by and confirm or deny it).

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

I would say that the unit would not be destroyed. They do take their str4 hits, and have to make armour saves, etc. When the skimmer is destroyed, the unit inside will instantly disembark, suffering the hits and pinning test.

[Grey Mage]

I dunno... I think its pretty straightfoward:

pg. 67- if you cannot disembark, you are instead destroyed along with the vehicle.

pg. 70- you cannot disembark if your transport is going flat out, or was attempting to. But... thats only in the movement phase.

 

Thus, if your destroyed because your transport, thats probly already damaged, is going through dangerous terrain and is wrecked, then you are simply SOL.

 

Otherwise, with enemy shooting that is, you just disembark/are placed where the vehicle had been as normal.

 

QFT.

Additionally, Emergency disembarkation only works if enemy models or impassible terrain are in the way, not if they can't disembark because of other reasons (such as vehicle destroyed in the movement phase when moving flat out).

 

BTW, no eldar tank reduces S of enemy weapons AND forces you to roll two dice on the vehicle damage table. The wave serpent (the one that can transport up to 12 guys and has a twin-linked heavy weapon) reduces the S of enemy fire (not from the rear amongst others though). Any other vehicle can take the Holofields upgrade, which forces you to roll two dice on the vehicle damage table. Note that the wave serpent can't take this (I'm not all-together certain of this though, I'm hoping someone will come by and confirm or deny it).

You are correct... an eldar vehicle can have holofields, or they can have force shields, but none of them can have both. In fact, force shields are standard equipment on some vehicles, they all just lack a holofield upgrade option.

 

I would say that the unit would not be destroyed. They do take their str4 hits, and have to make armour saves, etc. When the skimmer is destroyed, the unit inside will instantly disembark, suffering the hits and pinning test.

 

Ok... why?

[Roland Durendal]

Let me see if I'm tracking GM's argument (and since I have no Codex on hand, since I'm at work, this will be shifty at best)

 

1). Vehicle moves flat out, goes into dangerous terrain, rolls a big 1, goes down as wrecked. Troops inside die because they cannot disembark before vehicle moved flat out (and we're still in the movement phase)

 

2). Vehicle moves flat out, enemy's turn he shoots it, wrecks/explodes it, troops take their S4 hits, roll saves, survivors disembark.

 

 

Seems fairly balanced and straight forward to me.

[Acebaur]

I would say that if you are wrecked then the unit is destroyed because they cannot disembark. The emergency disembarkation only applies if you can't get out of the entry/exit points of the vehicle. Saying that in the enemy shooting phase the vehicle hasn't moved doesn't make sense. It counts as moving the speed it did until the players next movement phase. Otherwise you would auto-hit it if you assaulted it. It can't not count as moving in one phase and then count as moving at speed in another phase.

 

 

Now if the vehicle explodes then they are not destroyed because the BRB specifically says place them where the vehicle was. The wrecked result says "The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a pinning test. Any modles that cannot disembark are destroyed" Because they moved flat out and can't disembark they are destroyed.

[Grey Mage]

I would say that if you are wrecked then the unit is destroyed because they cannot disembark. The emergency disembarkation only applies if you can't get out of the entry/exit points of the vehicle. Saying that in the enemy shooting phase the vehicle hasn't moved doesn't make sense. It counts as moving the speed it did until the players next movement phase. Otherwise you would auto-hit it if you assaulted it. It can't not count as moving in one phase and then count as moving at speed in another phase.

Except thats what the rule says:

 

passengers may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase.

 

Your opponents shooting phase? No big deal.

[Acebaur]

Thats just talking about when you are going to move flat out. So it magically stops moving in the shooting phase only to zoom ahead in the assault phase? Yeah, cause that makes a lot of sense

[ShinyRhino]

Thats just talking about when you are going to move flat out. So it magically stops moving in the shooting phase only to zoom ahead in the assault phase? Yeah, cause that makes a lot of sense

 

Unfortunately, this is one of those rules that causes tail-chasing arguments between RAW and RAI. RAW has the stronger hand in this one because the language isn't as ambiguous as some other RAW/RAI debates.

 

Applying common sense to a WH40K rule is just...not common sense. lol ;)

[Grey Mage]

Thats just talking about when you are going to move flat out. So it magically stops moving in the shooting phase only to zoom ahead in the assault phase? Yeah, cause that makes a lot of sense

Its a turn based game. It comes with the territory.

 

This isnt a real life simulation, its a game.

[Acebaur]

Thats just talking about when you are going to move flat out. So it magically stops moving in the shooting phase only to zoom ahead in the assault phase? Yeah, cause that makes a lot of sense

Its a turn based game. It comes with the territory.

 

This isnt a real life simulation, its a game.

 

It is a game, that is supposed to make sense if it were real life. Why else would GW waste pages of text explaining how a rule represents that action in the real world.

 

All I'm saying is lets use some common sense and when something (like this) is unclear go with what would make sense. As you said, it's just a game and one that is supposed to be fun.

[JamesI]

Thats just talking about when you are going to move flat out. So it magically stops moving in the shooting phase only to zoom ahead in the assault phase? Yeah, cause that makes a lot of sense

Its a turn based game. It comes with the territory.

 

This isnt a real life simulation, its a game.

 

It is a game, that is supposed to make sense if it were real life. Why else would GW waste pages of text explaining how a rule represents that action in the real world.

 

All I'm saying is lets use some common sense and when something (like this) is unclear go with what would make sense. As you said, it's just a game and one that is supposed to be fun.

Except I don't see how this is unclear, either in RAW or RAI.

[Grey Mage]

Thats just talking about when you are going to move flat out. So it magically stops moving in the shooting phase only to zoom ahead in the assault phase? Yeah, cause that makes a lot of sense

Its a turn based game. It comes with the territory.

 

This isnt a real life simulation, its a game.

 

It is a game, that is supposed to make sense if it were real life. Why else would GW waste pages of text explaining how a rule represents that action in the real world.

 

All I'm saying is lets use some common sense and when something (like this) is unclear go with what would make sense. As you said, it's just a game and one that is supposed to be fun.

It makes sense to me that the pilot of a hovercraft can crash land after being hit by enemy fire, but if hes flying a peice of junk with a hundred bullet holes in and rams head first into a tree theres going to be alot more death and destruction.

 

One is in your enemies shooting phase, the other is in your own movement phase.

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

I feel the rule's in this instance just need one word added. Voluntarily. As in unit's may not voluntarily embark or disembark etc. Also my intial response was regards str 4 hit's was due to tiredness and a miss read of the post. Thought it had been said it was destroyed.

[SeattleDV8]

Yes but, the word voluntarily is not in the flat out rules.