I need some help for a Chaos army list.

[the_forgefather]

I've been thinking of making a Nurgle Chaos army (I like The Purge but don't know any fluff on them), but don't really want many Plauge Marines (maybe at the most 2, 10-man units with a Rhino) and don't really want Berzerkers or any other dedicated marine (unless, perhaps, someone could help me justify having them in my army [fluff-wise]). I just want Marines with the T5 basically. But I'm stuggling to find an actually good close-combat unit and can't seem to find one in the Chaos Codex, at least when I put them in an army list (i.e. Terminators and Possessed) they get shot down because "that's not what their used for." Which doesn't seem right to me as the Possessed have a S5 (and T5 with Nurgle Icon) and a 5+ Invulnerable save, yeah they get a random ability but can somebody tell me the odds of what I'd roll on the Daemonkin chart? I think they're better than the Berzerkers (though Berzerkers do have WS5 and can capture objectives, but who uses them for that?) because of these reasons.

 

Also Terminators can all be upgraded to have 3 attacks each just for 10pts a model, and giving them all Lightning Claws isn't that bad, I mean, you can do that in a Space Marine army list and not many people will complain (I would assume). Plus they have Terminator Armor so they can Teleport and Squad/Personal Icons can be used for teleportation, but I see the bonus being that they can be upgraded with 3 attacks each, can be given an Icon to up their stats, and they can mix their weaponry (also they're cheeper than SM Terminators if you don't upgrade them). I'd almost envy them if it wasn't for them not having ATSKNF and not being able to take Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields.

 

Since I have been struggling to find the "perfect" close-combat unit in their Codex, so I was wondering if I took a 9-man unit of Chosen with 4 Lightning Claw pairs and a Meltagun (330pts including Icon of Nurgle), put them in a Land Raider, and used them as my Chaos Lord's "retinue" would that work well? Because I want to be able to catch a unit if I beat them in close-combat, so that means I don't want to put the Lord in Terminator Armor, and want to have a Power Armored unit with power weapons as opposed to just a lot of regular "blah" close-combat attacks. I understand that people use Chosen for their ability to take 5 special weapons (which is great, don't get me wrong) to destroy armor/infantry but I'd like to utilize them for close-combat seeing as they're the only ones (besides Terminators and Possessed, provided that you get that lucky 6) that can do so.

 

Also I would like to know some fluff on The Purge if someone can help me out with that.

[minigun762]

First off, here is some information on The Purge

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Purge

 

Secondly, you really shouldn't have much difficulty finding a good assault unit for Chaos Marines because that is what we do.

The most competitve choices are:

Berzerkers

Winged Daemon Princes

CSMs with Power Fists and 2 special weapons

 

Now given what you said about not wanting alot of Plague Marines or other Cult units, I would say your best option is

CSMs with a Power Fist and 2 special weapons in a Rhino.

Assuming you take Icon of Nurgle (which isn't that great compared to real Plague Marines), you have a fairly tough unit that will handle most light/heavy infantry. However your T5 bonus is wasted on MCs, Walkers and Power Fists, all of which are fairly common, so be aware of that.

 

Don't fall for the old "Lightning Claw Terminator Champions" trick. Its only viable if you buy a Land Raider and it means your spending close to 500 points for 5 guys and a tank. If you do decide on assaulty Terminators, keep them cheap. Maybe 1 L. Claw guy, 1 Fist guy and a Heavy Flamer (because its so cheap and useful) and leave the Champion upgrade at home.

 

Chosen make for a bad close combat unit, mostly because you're paying so much for guys who die just like normal Marines. To be honest, I'd rather see Nurgle Possessed Marines instead, because you'll always have atleast S5 T5 and a 5++ save.

[Metal Slime]

Yeah... my experience is that while Chosen can be set up to be better at CC than regular marines, it's not better enough to make up for the fact that they are no longer a scoring unit for objectives, plus you lose some points at 18pts a piece. And min-maxing them doesn't bode well either because you just end up losing special weapons faster.

 

Terminators, like he said, you need the Land Raider, and that means not only 220 points plus whatever, but also you lose a heavy slot that could have had something way better in it like another unit of Obliterators or something. The chaos land raiders just aren't pimp enough and again, the terminators aren't scoring units.

 

I guess at the heart of it is that the troop units for Chaos are some of the best units in the codex when you consider they can get the 90% of the job done and still count as scoring units. My personal solution to making a particular unit the 'close combat' unit is usually to take 9 regular dudes with a melta and put in a special hq or lord that can do all the combat damage you're looking for. Again, my personal choice is Huron because his Warptime and choice of fist or power weapon generally guarentees some damage is dealt and you don't have a unusually crappy turn. His unit rarely loses combat! I also like to save warptime for my opponents assault phase, to decrease my chances of winning too quickly and then ending up standing there during his shooting phase!

 

I'm such a fan of warptime as a close combat game changer that I'd even consider Thousand Sons with a warptime sorceror as a good choice. Expensive but, they have staying power that works out similarly to Plague marines (even better staying power vs another unit geared for close combat that has a lot of power weapons, like termies), and its one of the only ways to get warptime on a model that can't be targeted individually in close combat, which means you get to hack away with some fairly consistant death for as long as it takes!

[Xeonic]

The problem with all CC terminators is that they basically require a Raider to get into CC, and chaos raiders are a little inferior to loyalist ones(no doubt to be rectified in the next chaos 'dex), however they are quite respectable in CC stock(2A and power weapons all around), as well as having access to ranged upgrades, so they could be slogged up the board with a reaper and a couple CC upgrades(maybe a pair of LC and power or chainfist), and they'd be about as effective as loyalist tac termies, though they'd not have either the rending ferocity of the assault cannon nor the mighty pair of S8 AP3 krak missile spam from cyclones.

 

Possessed... Eh, 8 of them falls within a handful of pts of 8 berserkers in a rhino with a fistychamp, a scoring and all around more reliable choice. Remember that only 1/6th of the time will they be packing power weapons, and of the rest of the upgrades, scouts is pretty useless since you can only get it after deployment(no outflanking them), furious charge is okay, but it basically makes them slightly better berserkers without a fist, fleet is alright, but useless if you buy them a rhino, which you probably would since you can't plan around a 1/6th chance. Rending, sure, pretty nice given the reasonable volume of attacks they have, but it would be nicer if you could give them rending fulltime, or if they started with it. Feel no pain is gravy, especially if you're running mark of nurgle on them, but then they're just S5 plague marines that don't score and have no fist, and you again, can't plan to take advantage of it. Power weapons of course are the optimum roll since it makes them murder in CC. The best use I think I've read for them was to give them MoT so they have a 4+ invuln and use them to tarpit PW heavy units(a role not effected by their ability role, and enhanced by 50% of them!). The models are very very nice and have fantastic conversion potential, but the randomness of their ability roll is pretty bad.

 

Personally, I find chaos marines, plagues, or zerkers have plenty of punch in CC(every troops element in your army will basically be an assault element!), and adding in an IC only makes that better! To me, the ideal retinue IMO for a normal HQ model has got to be a squad of berserkers. Reliable, trustworthy, loads of strong attacks on the charge, and if you run low on models they can idle in their rhino on an objective to cap it.

I know in my mind that a daemon prince would be a better HQ choice even, but playing loyalists got me used to dealing with having an expensive T4 model leading my army. :P

[Rain]

Generally speaking I would say that berzerkers have the most bang for your buck as far as HtH units. That said, my up and coming Death Guard army will have 5 LC terminators in a Land Raider. Yeah it's expensive, but as my army will be pure DG it's really the only hard "sledgehammer" CC unit I can get, and though it may not be efficient enough for tournies and whatnot, it's still not a bad unit in my opinion. Oh and possessed are kind of crap, unless you roll power weapons berzerkers will be much better.

[the_forgefather]

Ok think I see where ya'll are coming from now. Berzerkers are the best choice because they can capture objectives and are still nice in close combat because they can get so many attacks. Since I'm wanting to play The Purge (to my understanding aren't as devoted to Nurgle, at least as much as the Death Guard are) could I justify a Berzerker unit and a Possessed unit with Icon of Tzeentch? I haven't been able to find much fluff on The Purge at all, which I guess there's not since they seem brand new. But yeah, Chaos seems to have some powerful scoring units. I like Demon Princes but I just don't like how they can't join units so they have to just hide a lot, that's why I like Chaos Lords a little more because I can put them in units and they can take Demon Weapons.

 

Another question, I see that you can get units of 20 Chaos Marines... Is is effective at all? They could definitely pump out lots of Bolter shots, which could shred infantry units, but would it really be worth it? I mean, Orks can get units of 30 Boyz, but they die REALLY fast, but I mean, this would be a unit of 20 Marines! I think they'd be a little more durable that Orks. The unit would be 300pts but that would be pretty amazing!

[Xeonic]

Honestly...no. 10 man units are optimal because they fit in a rhino while still being able to carry 2 special weapons. Multiple 10 man units is more effective than fewer large groups, though the per model cost is higher(upgrades), the effectiveness goes way up since they're large enough to be durable, but small enough to maneuver around the board. Plus they fit in a rhino. Did I mention a 10 man squad can fit in a rhino? :)

 

The mobility of rhinos will win you games if you use them properly.

Even if I was doing a horde army(as in all bodies on foot all the time), I'd still only run 10 man squads with fistychamps and twin special weapons. Those melta/plas/flame shots are your bread and butter, even moreso than the bolters your guys are packing, and it's really important to carry as many as possible.

 

EDIT: If I had some spare points I might use a slightly larger squad to hold an objective with a heavy weapon, but if the cost of the extra bodies equaled anything useful that would compliment the goal of the army as a whole I'd just take that instead. I'm thinking maybe 15 bodies max for a stay at home objective holding squad.

The problem is that marines are expensive compared to what they are bringing to the table, and using large squad you're basically just treating them as extra wounds/basci attacks. There's a lot to be said for min maxing your squads for overall effectiveness and being able to fit into a rhino. Did I mention it's important that they can fit into a rhino?

[minigun762]

I think it would ok fluff wise to incorporate a squad of Berzerkers into your Purge army. The Purge appear to be Nurgle-aligned renegades who are focused on killing everything, everywhere. It wouldn't be a very big stretch of the imagination that they could recruit a squad or two of Berzerkers to that cause because killing is killing.

[Rain]

Eh I don't know, maybe I'm just a flufff Nazi, but I do not think it would be ok to include 'zerks in a Purge army. Not the least reason for which is that there is actually an Apocalypse datasheet in Siege of Vraks 3 for playing a Purge warband, and it requires that all units have the Mark of Nurgle. Also, generally any warband dedicated to one god will be dedicated to just that god. Tzeentch banner marines are definitely out, Tzeentch is the sworn enemy of Nurgle, but that's really not so bad since the Tz banner is utter trash in my humble opinion.

 

Honestly if you really want max effectiveness why not just run Black Legion? I mean that's the whole point of BL, the mix and match and not serving any one god, but if you want to play some army that has the fluff of serving one god, then only take units belonging to that god. It just doesn't make sense to me, the only reason to play say The Purge over BL or some random band like Warp Ghosts is because Purge/Nurgle fluff appeals to you, but then why not actually follow that fluff? Anyway, rant over :)

[David the Despoiler]

A part of the game is being creative. Lets see. Berzerkers are crazy people. Crazy people that like to kill things.

Nurgle is all about disease.

 

What disease makes people crazy and want to kill stuff? Dimentia possibly?

 

What do we know causes dimentia in Chaos Space Marines?

 

Being incarcerated in a Dreadnought. So inactivity of the body.

 

How about a squad of Loyalist Marines was lost in the warp (cliché, I know) and have been plagued by visions of the killing and battle that they have done.

 

The lack of activity has driven them insane, they've lost all contact with sense. A warp-borne disease holed its way unto their ship. Bang, you've got crazy marines that want to kill stuff.

 

They emerge from the warp, the Purge embrace them as brethren and induce them with promises of death and destruction.

 

Sculpt plenty of chains and what-not on them so to show that they are bound and held in stasis between battles to keep them from slaughtering their brethren, unleashed (like a Dreadnought) on the field of battle.

[Rain]

But that's not creativity, that's--well frankly it's BSing in order to use a powerful unit against theme. I mean no Iron Warrior players want to use unfleshed with spawn rules, now do they? Even though it fits existing fluff and doesn't require reaches like "Oh these aren't berzerkers in my Slaanesh army, they are just really high on combat drugs" or "Oh these nurgle berzerkers are just running a high fever so they're a bit manic".

 

Or how about Nurgle marines with constantly growing and reshaping tumors being counted as possessed? Nope, that doesn't happen either. Why? Because most "creativity" is actually attempts to play the stock 2x zerks 2x plagues 2x2 oblit list while claiming to be playing EC, IW, The Purge etc. Again, that list makes some sense as BL, so if you like it so much just play BL. But if you like the theme of some other warband/legion, then why not actually stick to the theme?

[waitingtobedisciplined]

Could always be allies/mercenary chain axes for hire.

[aeroplane]

But if you like the theme of some other warband/legion, then why not actually stick to the theme?

 

Because the Codex doesn't allow for a good army if you choose to do that.

 

We all want our fluffy armies back, but Chaos got hijacked by this current codex. The only way to make a good army is to mix the gods and use the only decent units that are available to us. So much got strangled in this codex that we are left with only a few viable options to work with. So things get unfluffy. Oh well.

 

Someday we will have a good codex again. Someday.

[Rain]

Because the Codex doesn't allow for a good army if you choose to do that.

 

We all want our fluffy armies back, but Chaos got hijacked by this current codex. The only way to make a good army is to mix the gods and use the only decent units that are available to us. So much got strangled in this codex that we are left with only a few viable options to work with. So things get unfluffy. Oh well.

 

Someday we will have a good codex again. Someday.

 

Oh believe me, I hate this codex as much as if not more than most, I have been playing Chaos since the days of our 3rd edition travesty coupled with IA, and being a fluff nazi, this latest codex was seen as an open declaration of war on my enthusiasm for the game by GW.

 

That said, yeah you can't play a bleeding edge tourney army with any theme other than "happy chaos handholding party" of mixed marks and whatnot, but I strongly disagree that you cannot have a casually competitive army that follows an undivided/nurgle/etc theme. Tzeentch would be the hardest I suppose, but Nurgle? Quite doable, and actually that's where the "creativity" actually lies. Fielding the cookie cutter army you saw on the net that won a bunch of tournies and painting it a different color and claiming "counts as" is far less creative in my opinion than figuring out how to follow an actual fluff theme and still win.

[David the Despoiler]

I think you misunderstand what theme truly is. Theme is everything within your army list being plausible to the background story given for a particular faction. That's why you won't see Khorne Berzerkers in a Thousand Son's list. Could you see a variation of Thousand Sons, such as a cabal of Sorcerers that wield long pole-arms, have diminished magical potential, and usually guard some sort of Relic pertaining to the Thousand Sons, sort of like a parody of the Adeptus Custodes? As long as the special rules are explained, I don't see the problem. The same thing goes with the crazy Chaos Marines. This is adding creativity (or at least originality) to theme.

 

Furious Charge: Pole arm, halberd, insanity (Penal Legion and Death Company being prime examples of similar conditions being represented with Furious Charge, and the explosive-tipped lances of the Rough Riders being an example of a weapon having effectiveness on the charge).

 

If theme were to limit what army composition you took, the "cookie cutter list" will be accompanied by fodder lists. Rather then having ginger-bread men winning the tournaments, we'll have ginger-bread boys, girls and women, not even trying to win simply because they have the wrong dimensions on their cookies. It's much more interesting to at least have the same ginger-bread man with a different flavor of icing or gum drop buttons. Maybe even make him out of something completely different then ginger. Sure, the same template is there, but at least the template is being presented in an original way. My opinion is that this is true theme.

 

I'll clarify that this is purely my opinion and not fact in any way.

[Rain]

No, I understand exactly what you mean, I just think that it's a total copout. Oh and by the way, neither Nurlge nor Tzeentch was competitive tourny-wise in the last codex either, so the argument that "I have to do it to field a competitive list with this soul-less codex" falls a bit flat. Hell, if anything, I think that pure Nurgle armies actually became more powerful gameplay wise. As for counts as, it is good when it is actually used to follow an established fluff theme. In other words, use counts as because you think that something that exists in fluff is not explicitly represented in rules, and not because you want to use the rules for something you should not have in fluff.

 

So, maybe modeling your flamers as some kind of slime sprayers in a DG army, or making a huge cyborg for an Iron Warriors daemon prince are all using counts as to follow a theme. Playing "Tzeentch custodes" as berzerkers on the other hand, has nothing at all to do with theme, it's just something you made up in order to field a powerful unit. There has never been any Tz fluff about a bunch of non-psychics that run around hitting people with huge axes, and that's what the zerk rules portray, "counts as" or not.

 

All this said, if you just want to play tournies but don't like painting black or whatever, sure paint your army as Thousand Sons while playing Black Legion, but don't go around saying you play TS because you really don't, you play blue Black Legion.

[the jeske]

the DG infiltration build with the man eater lord with demonic speed and spamed PM squads with the 2 to 1 ratio of PMs to plasma havocks was a solid build.

[David the Despoiler]

In that case, please, do indulge me, what would you define as a creative addition to an army in the form of a powerful close combat unit?

[Rain]

In what army? A Black Legion army? Then berzerkers. A Thousand Sons army? Well honestly CC is not part of the theme for Tzeentch, but terminators with lightning claws would be alright fluff wise, as would a Tz daemon prince with warp time, as would CSM's. Are any of those as good as berzerkers? Well no, but that's kind of the point of "theme" you pick units not just based on tabletop effectiveness but also on whether your particular cult/legion would actually field such a unit within the borders of established fluff.

 

Anyway this is kind of a pointless argument I suppose, I neither can nor want to determine what you put in your army, but I retain my opinion that if one cares about theme, one should not put khorne marked CC monsters into a Tzeentch list any more than one should take a warptime prince in a Khorne army and say that he has "good reflexes" if all one cares about however is winning, then it's all fair game, go for it.

[the jeske]

which one , for what codex and what build ?

the general rule is that it has to be cheap and have the option to be spamed . a 0-1 options would really have to be over the top to be considered good.

To maka a few examples

shriek +10 termis . infiltration + fleet , if it starts a good chance for a first turn multi charge and the sm dex has options that work with the build well[like drop dreads that land turn one and even if they dont charge it is still 3 big units at point blank range . Of course if the army doesnt start its more or less screwed.

 

For chaos the zerkers +2DP +3 defilers is the closest thing to a hth only army [we cant realy build a good hth army as we are too slow , 12" treat range or being forced to run LR for charging kind of a does that to us] we have . again the basic spam idead 2 dps flying and runing 3 defilers moving and fleeting and the zerkers to have scoring units. at least against some armies part of the army will reach hth . But to be honest that build does have problems [defilers get no cover ,fast moving armies cant be cough and we dont have the loyalist 1 turn drop pod assault] , so in the end we play the good old short range 2dp troops+obilts build

[nurglez]

In my pure DG army, I use a squad of plague marines in a raider and my daemon prince as my hard hitters, sure, they dont hit that hard, but im not taking anything that can lose its toughness due to 1 marine dying, so plaguemarines are the only troops i let myself use (ok, last army i made i used 2 termicide squads, but that was 2000 points and we generally play 1500).

 

As noted above, prince, lord, and berserkers are the best hand to hand units in the chaos codex.

 

how about trying out some dreadnought's with 2 close combat weapons, not ideal (a lot of people hate our dread's, unfortunately most of those people play chaos too) but also add's some vehicles to the mix, giving more targets for anti vehicle weapons.

[the_forgefather]

Well first off, I'm sorry to burst anyone's fluff bubble, as I like fluff too, but if I play Chaos I want a list that will do good on the table top. Thanks for all your suggestions. I don't really want to play a tournament list but a list that will be fun to play, I just enjoy playing the game (though I hate losing too :sweat: ) so it doesn't really bother me that much to play an army that's "unorthodox" in fluff or game wise. So I'm not asking "fluff wise" what's the most effective close-combat unit but game-wise, and so far I see that it is the Berzerkers. Is it them solely because they cost less than Possessed/Terminators and they capture objectives? How about if you decide to play just a kill point game? Are they still more effective? I don't care if I have to spend more points on Possessed/Terminators to have (if they are) a more effective close-combat unit, because at my gamestore we mostly play Annihilation. Also why aren't Bikers or Raptors used? Is it for the same or fluff reasons?

 

So that being clear, what is the most effective?

[David the Despoiler]

Berzerkers are considered the best due to the fact that they have WS 5 (the only thing that does outside of our HQ slot), Furious Charge (still the only ones that have it outside of our HQ slots and Possessed) and are at a very effective points cost. Also, on top of that, their mark of khorne is built into their profile, not dependent on one Marine holding an Icon.

 

The Possessed are not as reliable as the Berzerkers due to their random ability. Also, the Possessed have no frag/krak grenades. Their mark is dependent on 1 model.

 

Terminators suffer from the same weakness as Possessed in that they have no frag/krak grenades. On top of that, unlike the Berzerkers and possessed, they have no way of achieving Strength 5, Initiative 5 at the same time. Whatever mark you give them, it is still dependent on one marine holding an icon. On top of this, in order to reach assault range alive they'll either have to deep strike or get a transport. Unlike the Berzerkers or Possessed, the Terminator's only available transport is a Land Raider, which only adds to the sheer cost of them.

 

Now, I'm sure you're wondering what's so important about being initiative 5. The importance of this is being able to strike before most other armies (with initiative 4 being the most common value), thus minimizing the amount of hits we take.

 

Raptors are essentially flying Chaos Marines, their mark dependent on one model holding an icon. Once again, no way of hitting initiative 5, str 5 and they're also very vulnerable due to a lack of transport. Their points-cost is also rather unhealthy, as they are 1 point less then a Berzerker but a berzerker is so much better.

 

Bikers are far too expensive for what they do, they're twice as costly as a normal Chaos Marine with only +1 toughness, relentless and a twin-linked bolter to show for it. In close combat, they have less attacks then all of the above options, less weapon skill then the Berzerkers and less strength then the possessed. They have a worse armor save then the Terminators and have to take dangerous terrain tests when moving through any terrain.

 

All in all, the Berzerker's are the best due to the fact that they combine some of the most important aspects of a close combat unit. Easily spammable, easily transported, assault grenades (to stop cover from getting in the way), high number of attacks. On top of these, they also have a high weapon skill (as most units in the game have only weapon skill 4 or less), Furious Charge and Fearless. One of their most important features in a Chaos Army is, however, the fact that they have a built in mark that they can't lose.

[Lord Kallozar]

there is actually an Apocalypse datasheet in Siege of Vraks 3 for playing a Purge warband, and it requires that all units have the Mark of Nurgle.

Ooh tell me more! I didnt know about this! Any other rules mentioned for running The Purge?

 

 

Anyway getting back to the topic at hand. I agree with what David the Despoiler said about the Berzerkers. They are indeed the best CC warriors the codex has to offer!

 

Im not a fan of 'counts as' at all and i wouldnt even consider using any unit thats not fluff compatable BUT thats just my personal opinion and so so many players use 'counts as' these days that i wouldnt have any problems battling against a team using 'counts as'. So as long as you have some reasonable explaination for using 'zerks in your Nurgle list then go for it!

 

In the previous codex when Chaos fluff was, well.... fluffy lol, you had Nurgle who had beef with Tzeentch and visa versa, and Khorne who dispised Slaanesh and visa versa but nothing was specifically mentioned about Khorne and Nurgle hating each other. This isnt to say that they were chums (far from it actually) but they could seemingly tolerate each other more than others. So in game and fluff terms terms using the current C:CSM a small group of mercenary 'zerks have been hired by your Nurgle troops as hired muscle with the promise of lots of killing, so they just get along barely tolerating each other (for now).

[the_forgefather]

Ok, thanks for the info! I needed to know more of why "this is the way it is" and now I understand why it is the way it is with Chaos lists. This helps out lot, thanks Despoiler and everyone.