Mephiston Force Weapons

[Nore]

In the "today mephiston slayed.." thread, a small discussion occurred about Mephiston being able to try 3 times (THREE) to succeed his psychic test on the same wound.

No real discussion began and I am stumped. Even though this is favorable, i can't really find any support for this.

Is this just wishful thinking?

 

Can we get some arguments going, and set this one straight? :P

[JamesI]

Chaos FAQ says you can use the same power more than once (assuming its not a psychic shooting power). So, I guess it's legal.

 

If this turns into a real debate, I'll bounce it to the Official Rules forum to get more opinions.

[lorider2]

I don't really get the technicalities behind Meph's FW rules. I don't have the book in front of me but I THINK it says he has 3 powers and those powers are Unleash, Winds, Sword. He may use all 3 powers in one turn. Nothing about any of other powers, or casting 3 TIMES each turn, or how the FW counts. Thus I'm not sure Meph can try and cast ANY power even twice or if he can really cast two powers AND the FW (though I would assume he can). Am I missing something? Do the epistolaries have specific rules where it states they can cast a power AND use the FW?

[Morticon]

The exact words are "He can use 3 psychic powers each turn".

Not "all 3 powers".

 

However, im stumped on this thanks to the precedent set by the Chaos codex FAQ.

[sp4rky]

In BRB pg 50, Force Weapons box: "... confer to the wielder one additional psychic power...".

From Meph's entry in the Codex, pg 47: "... he can use 3 powers each turn...".

 

It doesn't specify that Meph can't use the same power twice. I would have expected the rules to say "He can use ALL 3 powers each turn" if he was not intended to be able to use the same power multiple times.

I doesn't state in the Force Weapon rules that the power can only be used once.

 

So, in my opinion, I guess that as long as you don't use his basic 3 powers then you can use the Force 3 times.

 

 

Lorider2, under Epistolaries' rules it specifies that they can use 2 powers per turn.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Noted my opinions.

[Fysh]

The one thing that I don't understand is does he get to use three powers each player turn? Could I use the force weapon three times on my turn and then use it three more times during my opponents assault phase?

[nobeef154]

yes and no fast- its still in the gray area now that the chaos faq has been brought up but at the least you would be able to use forceweapon once in your turn and once in your oppents you can use it as long as you can still cast a power and caused 1 unsaved wound

[Son of Rawl]

I would say yes if he didn't use any of his other powers, it does count as a power I believe the instant killing

[igotsmeakabob!!]

The one thing that I don't understand is does he get to use three powers each player turn? Could I use the force weapon three times on my turn and then use it three more times during my opponents assault phase?

Each player turn, as according to the psyker rules in the BRB.

[Nore]

So the epistolaries can use might of heroes on two models? Himself, and the sergeant for example? Or himself twice?

 

"Use the weapon's power on any one opponent(..)"

 

So you can only use it on one person to check if the the wound caused instant death. But to repeat it if it failed, twice?

Seems fishy.

[JamesI]

So the epistolaries can use might of heroes on two models? Himself, and the sergeant for example? Or himself twice?

 

"Use the weapon's power on any one opponent(..)"

 

So you can only use it on one person to check if the the wound caused instant death. But to repeat it if it failed, twice?

Seems fishy.

It is fishy, but it seems to stretch onto the legal side of the line (based entirely on the Chaos FAQ). In my chaos army, I've taken advantage of this to cast warptime twice if I fail the first time.

 

I guess an episoltary could cast Might on 2 different targets, hadn't considered that.

[shatter]

Sooo... does this also mean

 

meph gets up to 3 attempts to sprout wings?

an epistolary can cast MoH on two different targets or the same target twice?

an epistolary gets up to 2 attempts to get a shield or unleash rage up?

[Nore]

That's AWESOME!

 

2xEpistolary joining tycho. Giving Tycho 4x might of heroes, potentially 12 extra attack for a total of 16 attacks on the charge with the dead mans hand!!!!!!

[JamesI]

Sooo... does this also mean

 

meph gets up to 3 attempts to sprout wings?

an epistolary can cast MoH on two different targets or the same target twice?

an epistolary gets up to 2 attempts to get a shield or unleash rage up?

Based on the Chaos FAQ, yes.

[yodaid764]

That's AWESOME!

 

2xEpistolary joining tycho. Giving Tycho 4x might of heroes, potentially 12 extra attack for a total of 16 attacks on the charge with the dead mans hand!!!!!!

 

Except for the fact that you cannot have 3 HQs, this might work.

And what I think people missed is that the OP said "Mephiston being able to try 3 times (THREE) to succeed his psychic test on the same wound".

Therein I believe is the real debate. IMO, no, you cannot use the Force Weapon extra psychic power on the same wound. Certainly, you could make multiple FW checks on multiple wounds Mephistion causes in the same assault phase.

[Nore]

I feel like trying three times is like having a mastercrafted re-roll.

 

If you wound several immortals, it would be like using the power of the sword completely, not just retrying a retry.

[Morticon]

That's AWESOME!

 

2xEpistolary joining tycho. Giving Tycho 4x might of heroes, potentially 12 extra attack for a total of 16 attacks on the charge with the dead mans hand!!!!!!

 

Except for the fact that you cannot have 3 HQs, this might work.

And what I think people missed is that the OP said "Mephiston being able to try 3 times (THREE) to succeed his psychic test on the same wound".

Therein I believe is the real debate. IMO, no, you cannot use the Force Weapon extra psychic power on the same wound. Certainly, you could make multiple FW checks on multiple wounds Mephistion causes in the same assault phase.

 

While i understand the thinking behind the feeling that you dont get to do so, there is nothing in the rules that supports this.

Eldar can cast two of the same powers on a unit if they fail once - why not us?

 

Pg 50 says "

 

"They have the same effct as power weapons, but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power".

 

"..The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapons power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound"

 

How many powers can you use?

Three.

Chaos FAQ sets precedent of using same power multiple times so we go to the start of our checklist.

 

A: Do I have a power? Yup.

B: What are the conditions of me using the power? An unsaved wound done by the weapon.

C: How many powers can I use?

All good.

I dont see where in the rules this counts as a re-roll or is considered dubious.

[Jorre]

I'm a BA player but this seems a little OP (I like it though) but I would like to see this debated by other non BA players lets just hope it doesnt turn into another Meph is OP argument

[Morticon]

Fair call Jorre- ill move this to the OR forum for a broader perspective!

[Hellios]

Don't Ahriman and Eldrad specifically state they can use the same power more than once? (This may refer to older rules AKA 4th ed) as I don't have my BBB with me at the moment I cannot comment.

 

Also what about Codex daemons (I know they are not psychic powers but they are similar in some ways) can you get any upgrades to allow you to use the same "power" twice in one player turn?

 

I only bring these up because if the BBB doesn't prohibit the use of the same psychic power multiple times in a turn then you are golden... if it does then compare...

 

Also the reason I expect it says may use 3 psychic powers a turn and not may use all three psychic powers a turn is so that you have to choose which ones your going to use rather than letting you use all 4 (Including his force weapon).

 

As I say I don't have the BBB but if any of that helps people make a decision go for it.

[thade]

Pretty sure Ahriman's rules say he can use three different psychic shooting attacks a turn...but he can't use the same psychic shooting attack per turn three times.

 

This isn't that OP as Meph has no invuln save and each time he fails he's likely taking a wound he can't save...making him an easier target to tear down.

 

Morticon's outline seems spot-on to me.

[vorkung]

This could probably apply to all Librarians as well. Tigurius can use 3 powers each turn too..

[Mordekiem]

I think the intention is you can use three powers per turn, but they have to be three different ones. So I think you only got one shot with your force weapon. But it does look pretty grey since the rules in the BRB are obviously written with one power and one target in mind. Too bad they did not think ahead to clear it up.

 

If it helps people decide, the eldar codex (Eldrad specifically) has a rule that allows him to cast a 3rd power per turn and it specifically says it may be one he already used.

 

For regular farseers they were specific and said they cannot cast the same two powers if they take spirit stones.

[Legatus]

I dunno. The Power of the Force Weapon is not one the Psyker simply choses to use at any time he wants (in the appropriate phase defined by it's rules). It is a special reaction the Psyker is permitted if he successfully met a prerequisite, inflicting an unsaved wound on an enemy model. There may be a case for claiming that Mephiston (or any Epistolary) can use a Force Weapon multiple times per turn, but against different enemies they managed to wound. The Force Weapon effect is something that only becomes available once the Psyker has wounded a model, i.e. enemy model successfully wounded --> he can now try to use the Force Weapon effect against that model. If one wanted to then roll three times to kill that one model, it would not really be like using three powers, it would be like attempting three times to use one power once, the one reaction he is allowed.

 

Furthermore, even if one claims that he can try to kill that one model three times, then at least the uses of the power had to be called in advance. Like all shots or all attacks that are made at the same time have to be declared, the use of all powers in the same phase or "moment" (as some may be used "at the beginning" of a phase, while others may be used later during a pahse) would have to be declared as well. No seeing how the first action turns out and then deciding how to continue (a la "oh, the first plasmagun from my squad already wrecked the Rhino, so the second one is not going to shoot now..."). So if Mephiston wounded an enemy character, the player would then have to declare "I am now going to attempt to use the Force Weapon power on him one/two/three times".

 

But I would still tend to say that the Psyker is only allowed one "Force Weapon reaction" per inflicted wound.

[JamesI]

But I would still tend to say that the Psyker is only allowed one "Force Weapon reaction" per inflicted wound.

By RAW I'm not sure you are right, but this is a logical solution. Mephiston wounds someone three times, he can try three Force weapon kills, two wounds, two tries.