Mephiston Force Weapons

[Grey Mage]

That's AWESOME!

 

2xEpistolary joining tycho. Giving Tycho 4x might of heroes, potentially 12 extra attack for a total of 16 attacks on the charge with the dead mans hand!!!!!!

 

Except for the fact that you cannot have 3 HQs, this might work.

And what I think people missed is that the OP said "Mephiston being able to try 3 times (THREE) to succeed his psychic test on the same wound".

Therein I believe is the real debate. IMO, no, you cannot use the Force Weapon extra psychic power on the same wound. Certainly, you could make multiple FW checks on multiple wounds Mephistion causes in the same assault phase.

 

While i understand the thinking behind the feeling that you dont get to do so, there is nothing in the rules that supports this.

Eldar can cast two of the same powers on a unit if they fail once - why not us?

 

Pg 50 says "

 

"They have the same effct as power weapons, but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power".

 

"..The psyker may then take a psychic test to use the weapons power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound"

 

How many powers can you use?

Three.

Chaos FAQ sets precedent of using same power multiple times so we go to the start of our checklist.

 

A: Do I have a power? Yup.

B: What are the conditions of me using the power? An unsaved wound done by the weapon.

C: How many powers can I use?

All good.

I dont see where in the rules this counts as a re-roll or is considered dubious.

Actually, its not quite true- Eldar cannot normally do that. Eldrad Ulthran has a special rule that allows him to recast a single power, but he cannot cast the same one three times.

 

But your right, I cant find anything in the BRB that would stop most people, wich is very odd.

[Hlakir]

The problem with the Chaos FAQ is that the question they answer is about if Ahriman can use the same power more than once.... so technically the answer only applies to Ahriman. His wording for how many Psychic power he can use per turn is also different from that of a normal Psyker with the Mark of Tzeentch.

 

Ahriman can "make up to three Psychic tests in the same turn" (C:CSM p.51)

 

A Psyker with them Mark of Tzeentch can "use up to two psychic powers per player turn" (C:CSM p.88)

 

For Ahriman there is no reference to the number of Psychic powers he can use, only how many tests he can take. Also it specifically says he can only use the Force Weapon once (per player turn).

[thade]

Normal Librarian can use one power per player turn. Epistolary can use two per player turn. Both of these guys choose two powers; say they're both shooting attacks. Mephiston gets three powers, none of which are psychic shooting attacks.

 

To understand why the Chaos SM's FAQ is relevant, we need to understand the none-to-clear wording in the BRB.

 

The BRB's wording states that a given psyker:

- May not use more than one psychic shooting attack per turn.

- Even if he can use more than one shooting attack per turn, he may not use "the same power twice in a turn." He may however replace one of the shooting attacks with a psychic shooting attack.

 

That last chunk, direct from the book, is in reference to the aforementioned shooting power. It does not mean (as most of you seem to have inferred, as I did) that the psyker cannot use the same non-shooting power twice in one turn.

 

Now, let's look at Ahriman and the CSM FAQ.

 

Ahriman's rule and the FAQ tell us that Ahriman can use three psychic powers per turn, all of which can be shooting attacks; but they must each be a different shooting attack. In other words, he can't take three shots with Doombolt. (I was never clear why, but hey, he's a heretic; what do you expect? Consistency?) All of these references are to shooting attacks. Why? Well, probably because - with the exception of one or two powers (Warptime and maybe one other) out of the, what, eight they get, ALL Chaos psychic powers are shooting attacks. <_<

 

No where is anything mentioned about non-shooting psychic powers. Given the writing of the rules, there is nothing RAW that says a given psyker can't use the same psychic non-shooting power multiple times in one player turn. A Force Weapon is not a shooting attack, therefore it's okay to use it three times. (Almost there.) What this boils down to is something not too dissimilar from the Pinning discussion (another thread); but the wording there is different and I think, again, important:

 

Pinning: "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a Pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test."

FW: "...any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn."

 

Seems that multiple wounds versus one target could allow multiple Force Weapon checks, as nothing prescribes against it. It seems that, definitely, if you score multiple wounds across a unit, you could use multiple Force Weapon checks to try and insta-kill more than one of them (e.g. Nob would-alloc unit).

 

Here is what might be confusing some, and it's one of those places I feel GW really fails at rule-writing. If you read through the Force Weapon section, it's bloated. Bloated with friendly reminders for players that their little starter-kit psyker probably only gets to use one psychic power per turn. No reference to Epistolaries (who get two) or special characters (who might get more). There are several reminders about the "normal rules". Given the bloat and the slant of the rules, I feel that was the direction they were headed.

 

Keep in mind that Meph (or Tig and Ahriman, for that matter) being able to use Force Weapon multiple times in a melee fight is not broken, likely, because:

- Of the three, only Ahriman has an invuln save, and his stat line is otherwise only Vet MEQ for melee at best. Tig has to use one of his powers to get a 5+ invuln. Meph has no invuln.

- All of them are themselves vulnerable to Force Weapon and other instant-death causing things (no Eternal Warrior). Meph's T6 is nice, but won't save him from a helping of Lightning Claws or Thunder Hammers.

- All of these involve dice tests, which can be failed and inflict wounds which you need double-invuln saves to protect from; Meph gets no double-invuln. Before you scoff at this one as unlikely, keep in mind we're talking about *multiple* tests here, and that chance escalates significantly with all of these tests the psyker will be making.

- Other things I'm omitting but are just as important, like Meph can't join units, Ahriman and Tig are over-costed wussies, etc.

[Mordekiem]

No where is anything mentioned about non-shooting psychic powers. Given the writing of the rules, there is nothing RAW that says a given psyker can't use the same psychic non-shooting power multiple times in one player turn.

And by the same token there is nothing really saying they can use the same power multiple times in the same turn, either.

 

The statement saying "can cast three powers per turn" could refer to 3 different powers or it could mean that they can cast three of the same powers per turn. It is unclear and the rules in this area are particularly bad. So far pretty much every argument has an equally valid counter-argument.

[thade]

No where is anything mentioned about non-shooting psychic powers. Given the writing of the rules, there is nothing RAW that says a given psyker can't use the same psychic non-shooting power multiple times in one player turn.

And by the same token there is nothing really saying they can use the same power multiple times in the same turn, either.

 

The statement saying "can cast three powers per turn" could refer to 3 different powers or it could mean that they can cast three of the same powers per turn. It is unclear and the rules in this area are particularly bad. So far pretty much every argument has an equally valid counter-argument.

 

I disagree, for a reason that I admit I did not make clear before; I will try to do so now.

 

With regards to multiple powers used per turn they could have said either:

- may not use the same power more than once in one turn.

- may use the same power more than once in one turn.

 

I agree (and I bet you would too) that either of those would have been sufficient and clear. Instead, what they did was the less clear:

- may not use the same psychic shooting-attack power more than once per turn.

 

They state it as they do any exception to the rules. Were it not an exception, they needn't list it. Since shooting powers are the exception, that auto-categorizes the powers into two categories: shooting and non-shooting powers. Well, we know how to treat shooting powers; you can't use the same one more than once a turn. That's the exception. Well, exception to what? It must be the exception to the norm, and the norm must then be it's opposite...which we are left to presume.

 

The only logical thing to presume is that, without this rule, you could use more than one of the same psychic shooting attack each turn. Why would that be? Because they left (annoyingly) as implied that you can use any non-psychic shooting attack more than once per turn. (Cue people griping about GW's inability to write clear rule sets.)

 

In summary:

- They leave the ruling about a given psyker using a given psychic power more than once in a turn unsaid.

- They state via BRB and FAQ that a psyker cannot use the same psychic shooting attack more than once per turn. (An exception.)

- Given that exception, what is it an exception too? It must be an exception to its inverse: permitting a given psyker to use a given psychic non-shooting attack more than once in a turn must be the norm, under the rules.

[Morticon]

No where is anything mentioned about non-shooting psychic powers. Given the writing of the rules, there is nothing RAW that says a given psyker can't use the same psychic non-shooting power multiple times in one player turn.

And by the same token there is nothing really saying they can use the same power multiple times in the same turn, either.

 

The statement saying "can cast three powers per turn" could refer to 3 different powers or it could mean that they can cast three of the same powers per turn. It is unclear and the rules in this area are particularly bad. So far pretty much every argument has an equally valid counter-argument.

 

 

Mord, gotta say I agree with the man above -not just because I have Mephy in most of my lists at the moment, but most importantly within the permissive rules set, casting the power multiple times does not break any rules. And there is enough information (and permission) given to cast the same power 3 times. In fact your thought (argument?) that it could mean those three powers or any three powers is more supportive of allowing him to cast the same simply because it can mean both. And if it can mean either, then you can do either.

 

There is nothing to suggest in Mephistons rules that he cannot do it- which is the most important thing as we have established (above) that he can, therefore there is no conflict.

 

To Hlakir- you're very right about Ahrimen from a strict sense. However, the ruling sets a precedent. And if the rules are as ambiguous as people have argued them to be, then one way out of the ambiguity is to take a look at the precedent set in similar situations.

 

 

There is also nothing on page 50 to suggest that he can't do it either (ignoring the section on psychic shooting attacks).

[Legatus]

The BRB's wording states that a given psyker:

- May not use more than one psychic shooting attack per turn.

- Even if he can use more than one shooting attack per turn, he may not use "the same power twice in a turn." He may however replace one of the shooting attacks with a psychic shooting attack.

 

That last chunk, direct from the book, is in reference to the aforementioned shooting power. It does not mean (as most of you seem to have inferred, as I did) that the psyker cannot use the same non-shooting power twice in one turn.

(...)

No where is anything mentioned about non-shooting psychic powers. Given the writing of the rules, there is nothing RAW that says a given psyker can't use the same psychic non-shooting power multiple times in one player turn.

I dunno, the section about "psychic shooting attacks" does seem to imply it.

 

"Even if a psyker has a special rule allowing him to use more than one psychic power per turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack (as models can fire only one ranged weapon per turn). However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power twice in a turn.)"

 

The crux is the "still". So this rule seems to assume that even before, for typical models that are not allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon, there was the additional restriction of not being able to use a power twice. I say "additional restriction" because it had already been explained in the rule above that the model was not allowed to use more than one shooting attack because that replaced a regular shooting attack. So the psyker was limited by that fact, and not by being not allowed to use his powers twice. So not being able to use his powers twice was, according to this rule, a restriction that had already existed independenly of matters regarding psychic shooting attacks.

[thade]

Again, that last phrase in reference to psychic shooting attacks, not general (i.e. non-shooting) psychic attacks. It is a continuation of an explanation of an exception to the ruleset. The exception is that you can't use a psychic power more than once per player turn when it is a psychic shooting attack. Exception to what? The norm...which is that you can use the same psychic power more than once, if it is not a psychic shooting attack.

 

"Even if a pskyer has a special rule allowing him to use more than one psychic power a turn " - e.g. Epistolary - "he can only use one psychic shooting attack (as models can fire only one ranged weapon per turn)." That's fine, my Epistolary is not using two psychic shooting attacks; he's using two Force Weapon attacks. Or Force Dome twice (because it failed the first time).

[Legatus]

Again, that last phrase in reference to psychic shooting attacks, not general (i.e. non-shooting) psychic attacks.

"if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power twice in a turn."

 

The text under "Psychic Shooting Attacks" does not establish a limitation (which would then probably only count for the discussed "psychic shooting attacks"). Instead, the text assumes that there is an existing limitation of not being able to use the same power twice in a turn, but since the psychic shooting attack rules do not mention such a restriction earlier, it could just as well come from the basic psychic psychic power rules.

[thade]

We agree that it does not (actively) establish a limitation. We agree that it assumes that there is an existing limitation, but we do not agree on what that existing limitation is.

 

This existing limitation is (we both agree) relevant to the passage we are examining: that is, it is relevant to the usage of psychic shooting attacks.

 

My assertion is that you are expanding this beyond that scope without real reason to. The scope of the existing (but not clearly established) limitation is at least psychic shooting attacks. It may be more, but it's never shown to be more, anywhere. So, there is no reason to expand it.

 

If we do not expand it, as we have no reason to, we are left with an existing limitation on psychic shooting attacks that limits nothing else.

 

That may be as clearly as I can explain it. @_@ (I'm trying!)

[Legatus]

My assertion is that you are expanding this beyond that scope without real reason to. The scope of the existing (but not clearly established) limitation is at least psychic shooting attacks. It may be more, but it's never shown to be more, anywhere. So, there is no reason to expand it.

"Even if a psyker has a special rule allowing him to use more than one psychic power per turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack (as models can fire only one ranged weapon per turn). However, if he is allowed to fire more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can replace the firing of any of the weapons he is allowed to fire with a psychic shooting attack (but still cannot use the same power twice in a turn.)"

 

Note how this passage of the section about "psychic shooting attacks" refers in parts specifically to "psychic shooting attacks" (not psychic shooting "powers") and in others (like the first colored above) to overall "psychic powers". The final statement, refering to the apparently existing limitation, does not speak of a limitation to not being able to use a "psychic shooting attack" twice in a turn. It speaks of a "power". That is enough reason to assume that the limitation does not merely refer to "psychic shooting attacks".

 

Several psykers are allowed to "use two powers per turn". Compare that to models that may "fire two weapons per turn". Can that model then instead chose to fire one of it's weapons two times? Can an attack bike fire the heavy weapon twice, for example? In the same vein, how can a psyker that can use two psychic powers then use two different ones? This too contributes much to the assumption that the limitation is indeed meant to be on any kind of psychic power use, and not just on psychic shooting attacks.

 

One more reason is that the rules for psychic shooting attacks actually do include a specific limitation. A psyker can usually only use one psychic shooting attack because he is substituting the fire of a weapon with the use of a psychic shooting attack. There would be no logical sense to also impose the limitation that a psyker cannot use the same shooting attack twice at this point, as he is already denied using that power twice by only being allowed to use one psychic shooting attack anyways. It would be redundant to impose a second such limitation here. As there was no point in establishing such a limitation in the main part of the "psychic shooting attack" rules, it therefor also makes no sense that the last part would then refer to that limitation within this section. It makes more sense that the last part does indeed refer to an earlier limitation that is established outside of the "psychic shooting attack" section.

[thade]

Several psykers are allowed to "use two powers per turn". Compare that to models that may "fire two weapons per turn". Can that model then instead chose to fire one of it's weapons two times? Can an attack bike fire the heavy weapon twice, for example? In the same vein, how can a psyker that can use two psychic powers then use two different ones? This too contributes much to the assumption that the limitation is indeed meant to be on any kind of psychic power use, and not just on psychic shooting attacks.

 

Ah, I see now. I appreciate that you are likening it to weapon usage, but that doesn't hold up for me. A dreadnought can fire all of his weapons; they all fire simultaneously, so of course he can't choose to fire one of them twice should he omit firing another. On that we can agree. Were those weapon-firing mechanics meant as a whole to be extended to all psychic powers, I feel that they would have said so (as it would take one line and is conducive to their being lazy). No reason to not do this if they meant to. Yet, they did not do this. So, likely, they did not mean to.

 

One more reason is that the rules for psychic shooting attacks actually do include a specific limitation. A psyker can usually only use one psychic shooting attack because he is substituting the fire of a weapon with the use of a psychic shooting attack. There would be no logical sense to also impose the limitation that a psyker cannot use the same shooting attack twice at this point, as he is already denied using that power twice by only being allowed to use one psychic shooting attack anyways. It would be redundant to impose a second such limitation here. As there was no point in establishing such a limitation in the main part of the "psychic shooting attack" rules, it therefor also makes no sense that the last part would then refer to that limitation within this section. It makes more sense that the last part does indeed refer to an earlier limitation that is established outside of the "psychic shooting attack" section.

 

Your tying usage of psychic shooting attacks to weapons isn't going to work, I'm afraid. Consider the following, straight from C:SM:

 

Librarian in Terminator armor with a Storm Shield. Note that this model is perfectly legal and has no shooting weapons of any kind.

 

Are you suggesting that he is not allowed to use any psychic shooting attacks? I hope not; I use this very model all the time.

 

I'm convinced that if they meant for the weapons paradigm to be used here they would have said as much. As they didn't, I feel it doesn't, so I feel my previous assertions stand.

 

EDIT: typos and grammars.

[Legatus]

Were those weapon-firing mechanics meant as a whole to be extended to all psychic powers, I feel that they would have said so (as it would take one line and is conducive to their being lazy). No reason to not do this if they meant to. Yet, they did not do this. So, likely, they did not mean to.

Where are the rules that explain that an attack bike or Crisis suit with multi-tracker which both can fire two weapons cannot instead fire one of their weapons twice? If there are no such written rules and you are simply accepting that "shooting two weapons" automatically refers to two different ones, then why would that be different for a model being allowed to use "two psychic powers"?

 

 

One more reason is that the rules for psychic shooting attacks actually do include a specific limitation. A psyker can usually only use one psychic shooting attack because he is substituting the fire of a weapon with the use of a psychic shooting attack. There would be no logical sense to also impose the limitation that a psyker cannot use the same shooting attack twice at this point, as he is already denied using that power twice by only being allowed to use one psychic shooting attack anyways. It would be redundant to impose a second such limitation here. As there was no point in establishing such a limitation in the main part of the "psychic shooting attack" rules, it therefor also makes no sense that the last part would then refer to that limitation within this section. It makes more sense that the last part does indeed refer to an earlier limitation that is established outside of the "psychic shooting attack" section.

Your tying usage of psychic shooting attacks to weapons isn't going to work, I'm afraid. Consider the following, straight from C:SM:

 

Librarian in Terminator armor with a Storm Shield. Note that this model is perfectly legal and has no shooting weapons of any kind.

 

Are you suggesting that he is not allowed to use any psychic shooting attacks? I hope not; I use this very model all the time.

That has nothing to do with the point I was making. There is a limitation given in the "psychic shooting attack" rules, so that under normal circumstances a model can only ever use one single psychic shooting attack. And no, the model does not need to be equipped with a ranged weapon to use a psychic shooting attack instead of using a ranged weapon that turn. The point is that it would have been redundant to establish a second limitation to only allow a model to only use one single psychic shooting attack, as such a limitation had already been established.

The rule then goes on to explain that there is a special case for models that can use multiple psychic powers or use multiple shooting attacks, and it then points out that this "still" would not allow the model to use the same power twice. That "still" is unlikely to refer to the beginning of this section, as no such limitation had been established there, nor would it have made logical sense to establish such a limitatio there, because there is a different one that is being established earlier in that section. Is is therefor more reasonable to assume that the limitation refered to had been established outside of this "psychic shooting attacks" section.

 

In short:

 

- It would make no logical sense if the "still cannot use one twice" limitation was refering to the beginning of the "psychic shooting attack" section, because establishing such a limitation there would have been of no effect, as there already was one ("can only use one, because is used instead of ranged weapon")

 

- It would, however, make sense for a "cannot use one twice" limitation to be established generally for all psychic powers

[thade]

Where are the rules that explain that an attack bike or Crisis suit with multi-tracker which both can fire two weapons cannot instead fire one of their weapons twice?

These are weapon rules, so we find them in the Weapons section; or at least, we find good corollaries.

 

If there are no such written rules and you are simply accepting that "shooting two weapons" automatically refers to two different ones, then why would that be different for a model being allowed to use "two psychic powers"?

Because psychic powers and weapons are different, which is why they each have their own chapters. Again, were we meant to draw the parallels you want us to, they would have made that clear.

 

- It would make no logical sense if the "still cannot use one twice" limitation was refering to the beginning of the "psychic shooting attack" section, because establishing such a limitation there would have been of no effect, as there already was one ("can only use one, because is used instead of ranged weapon")

It does make sense, because it's in the same paragraph. All of the references in that paragraph are to the subject of that paragraph, which is psychic shooting attacks. That paragraph was written as psychic shooting attacks are an exception to the basic psychic powers rule (i.e. you can't use the same psychic shooting attack more than once in a turn, as you can with other powers).

 

- It would, however, make sense for a "cannot use one twice" limitation to be established generally for all psychic powers

Again, you are extending that scope too far without a real reason to.

[Legatus]

If there are no such written rules and you are simply accepting that "shooting two weapons" automatically refers to two different ones, then why would that be different for a model being allowed to use "two psychic powers"?

Because psychic powers and weapons are different, which is why they each have their own chapters. Again, were we meant to draw the parallels you want us to, they would have made that clear.

Certainly "can use two weapons" and "can use two psychic powers" would mean the same regarding the use of weapons and psychic powers? This is not different "rules" we are talking about, it is plain english.

 

 

It does make sense, because it's in the same paragraph. All of the references in that paragraph are to the subject of that paragraph, which is psychic shooting attacks.

That's... not really how a system of rules in a rulebook work.

 

- "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon..." (see "Shooting Phase")

 

- "...the psyker must be able to see his target, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase" (see "Shooting Phase" and "Assault Phase")

 

- "Even if the psyker has a special rule allowing him to use more than one psychic power per turn..." (see "Psykers" and relevant Codex)

 

- "...he can only use one psychic shooting attack (as models can fire only one ranged weapon per turn)" (See "Shooting Phase")

 

Most of the rules in the rulebook make reference to some other rule in the book, especially if the rule itself is a specialised version or exception to a basic rule. Almost every single sentence in the "Psychic Shooting Attack" section references another section in the book instead of it being a completely independent stand alone rule.

 

 

Again, you are extending that scope too far without a real reason to.

The "Psychic Shooting Attack" rules reference among others the Shooting rules and possible Codex special rules a model might have. Certainly refering to the basic rules for psychic powers given on the very same page is not too wide an extended scope. :D

[thade]

Certainly "can use two weapons" and "can use two psychic powers" would mean the same regarding the use of weapons and psychic powers? This is not different "rules" we are talking about, it is plain english.

 

Were I to reply to this, I would just be repeating myself (again). Sure, those two statements are grammatically the same, but they are referring to two different things entirely. One refers to Weapons. The other refers to Psychic Powers. They have some parallels, but any parallels that are not directly stated in the psyker chapter are just parallels we're imposing on them; in other words, RAI. There is nothing RAW that says you can't use two psychic powers which are the same, given that they are not both psychic shooting attacks.

 

It does make sense, because it's in the same paragraph. All of the references in that paragraph are to the subject of that paragraph, which is psychic shooting attacks.

That's... not really how a system of rules in a rulebook work.

 

Your first counter-argument to me(in your most recent post) was regarding "plain english" and how that makes your case clear. Your second counter-argument to me (most recently quoted) is implying the reverse: that "plain english" does not make *my* case clear. If you don't see irony in that, at least, then I'm not sure we'll see eye to eye. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then; for my part, I do.

 

Until someone else speaks up, I have contributed all I can to this discussion. I think my points are pretty solid and, so far, people (with few exceptions) seem to agree.

 

By RAW, it is legal to use a non-psychic shooting attack more than once in the same round, provided your model is allowed to use more than one psychic power in the same round.

[Legatus]

Your first counter-argument to me(in your most recent post) was regarding "plain english" and how that makes your case clear.

Yep.

 

"can fire two weapons" --> has to be two different weapons

 

"can use two psychic powers" --> can be the same power twice

 

That is not really a viable way of interpreting rule texts. It has to be either one or the other for both, or it is inconsistent interpretation of text, unless there were additional rules explaining that it is supposed to be like this for weapons and like that for psychic powers, which there aren't.

 

 

Your second counter-argument to me (most recently quoted) is implying the reverse: that "plain english" does not make *my* case clear.

Because this is a case of rules referencing other rules. I have been saying that the "psychic shooting attacks" section is referencing several rules from other sections of the rulebook. In particular I have been trying to make the point that the last line ("still cannot use the same power twice...") is not referencing the beginning of the "psychic shooting attack" section, because the rule that is being referenced would not logically have been given at that point. It would however, ideally have been given in the basic psychic power rules, which it isn't, unfortunately (and neither is it in the "psychic shooting attacks" section), but that last line assumes that this rule is given somewhere. I am saying this "somewhere" would more likely have been the basic psychic power rules, and not the "psychic shooting attack" rules.

No, I would't say this is a case of basic english language interpretation, as the issue with using two wepaons/powers.

[thade]

I pointed those two things out as a contradiction on your part.

 

I also already addressed the weapon parallel. I suspect you are not reading my posts.

[padookah]

In the chaos space marine faq on the GW website it says,

"Q: Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times during the same turn?"

"A: Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is true for warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn!"

This is the precedence for this thread. Clearly the interpretation of the rule for psychic shooting actacks is restricted to only psychic shooting attacks. Based off this and the BRB Mephiston and any other psychic with multiple powers usuable per turn can use their force weapon multiple times.

[Isiah]

In the chaos space marine faq on the GW website it says,

"Q: Can Ahriman use the same power two or even three times during the same turn?"

"A: Powers that are psychic shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. Gift of chaos can be used multiple times, as it is not a psychic shooting attack. The same is true for warptime, but of course there is no point in using this power more than once per turn!"

 

This is the precedence for this thread. Clearly the interpretation of the rule for psychic shooting actacks is restricted to only psychic shooting attacks. Based off this and the BRB Mephiston and any other psychic with multiple powers usuable per turn can use their force weapon multiple times.

 

Well the Chaos FAQ has no precedence over the Blood Angels (where has that idea come from?).

 

But the gist of your argument is correct. As per the Psyker rules on p50 of the BRB, a psyker cannot use more than one of the same psychic shooting powers per turn, but he could use two different psychic shooting attacks as long as he can substitute a second shooting ranged weapon to obtain it.

 

As per RAW there are no restrictions on the number of times the same non-shooting psychic power can be used per turn - unless the specific Codex states otherwise.

 

[Just to say I don't have the BA Codex -- so ignore this post if it has no relevence to the original topic in hand. My main worry (here) was how folks were bringing the Chaos FAQ into the equation when actually all you need is in the BRB.]

 

Cheers

I

[thade]

[Just to say I don't have the BA Codex -- so ignore this post if it has no relevence to the original topic in hand. ...]

 

Cheers

I

 

No worries, Isiah; there is no such restriction noted in the BA Codex. Hence, my stance.

[padookah]

Chaos FAQ says you can use the same power more than once (assuming its not a psychic shooting power). So, I guess it's legal.

 

If this turns into a real debate, I'll bounce it to the Official Rules forum to get more opinions.

 

 

From the second post in this thread

 

edited because i inserted the incorrect quote

[Legatus]

I found a few precedents in various Codices regarding the multiple use of psychic powers or specifically the multiple use of force weapons. Now, these passages are obviously not neccessarily meant to affect anything other than the unit of the Codex they are from, but on the other hand it could be an indication of how the Codex writers implemented the basic rules for psychic powers. These are precedents, not rules to refer to. In a few of these cases it would seem odd if that particular unit was especially limited compared to other units.

 

 

Codex Eldar, page 26

"Spirit Stones: (...) A Farseer with spirit stones can use two psychic powers per turn. A Farseer cannot use the same psychic power twice in the same turn."

 

As mentioned above, maybe this is just a case of Eldar psykers being more limited than others.

 

 

(4th Edition) Codex Blood Angels, pdf, page 7(8)

"Lord of Death: When Mephiston overcame the Red Thirst, he released his full psychic potential. As such, Mephiston has all three Blood Angels Psychic Powers (see below) and can use each one of them and his Force Weapon once each player turn, rather than being limited as are other Librarians. He may not use the same power more than once."

 

This is an interresting precedent as it deals specifically with Mephiston, whom this topic was originally concerned with. Of course, one may point out that those were the old rules, and now he got new ones. Well, it would not be the first time a new Codex or rule writer would be sloppier in his writing.

 

 

Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 51

"The Black Staff of Ahriman: The Black Staff is a potent focus of psychic energy. It counts as a force weapon, and in addition allows Ahriman to make up to three psychic tests in the same turn (one of these may be to use the special ability of his force weapon). (...)"

 

This is interresting for one thing because it is a precedent about the use of a force weapon only once per turn. But again, this rule is obviously only adressing Ahriman, and maybe he is just more limited than other Librarians.

The other reason why this is interresting is that it seems not to be in the same spirit as the Chaos FaQ concerning him, where apparently only "psychic shooting attacks" cannot be used multiple times.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

The 4th edition rules appear to *support* the idea that we can use a power multiple times. They specifically add "He may not use the same power more than once."

Ahriman's, I think, doesn't really give us much either way.

[Legatus]

The 4th edition rules appear to *support* the idea that we can use a power multiple times. They specifically add "He may not use the same power more than once."

I do find it hard to believe that Eldar Farseers and Mephiston are supposedly more limited in their use of psychic powers than all generic psykers only using the rulebook rules are. I don't think suggesting that is a very strong support for the possibility that powers can otherwise be used multiple times.

The 4th Edition rules for psychic powers (4th Edition rulebook, page 52) merley explained how powers are used. They did not make any statement about how many psychic powers a psyker can potentially use, so that had to be explained in the appropriate Codex. Unfortunately the 5th Edition Codices have a tradition of omitting such minor details that the Codex authors have apparently seen as obvious, such as the Space Marine banners only affecting friendly Space Marine units, or the Tyrant Guards ability to hide a Monstrous Creature from being picked out by enemy fire.